Maybe instead of dismissing these positive traits as lesser, we could question the entire gendered value hierarchy? Like, I think the only reason ppl are offended here is because everyone sees traits like "fuzziness" as less valuable, but why is that personality trait considered not as good? Why because it is associated with women/femininity of course! Aren't we perpetuating sexism when we ourselves eschew "feminine" things just because they are associated with femininity? Like why are we agreeing to the assumption that the more masculine/manly something is the better?
It's fine to take issue with his assumption that all women are kinder (i get it), but can you look at developing nations where they've allowed women more power and deny that things run smoother and less violently? Or that the top countries for producing terrorists are also countries where women are oppressed the most?
But it is a pain to be expected to have some higher moral aptitude just because you're a woman, but it ain't the WORST idea to foster.
I think it's equally lame for women to celebrate violence/aggression/assholetry, like it's some right that's long been denied to us. It's not, and I'd rather not stoop to the level of the less evolved patriarchies past just to convince someone I'm equal.
@Bunny Themelis: This is a really interesting and valid point. Having said that, what makes it difficult is the question of whether tradtionally 'feminine' traits are learned or are biologically inherent. Are we selling ourselves short by eschewing traits thought of as 'female', or are we just taking a stand against the idea that those traits should be considered feminine in the first place? I tend to be of the latter view, but I know that's because I have a mind so traditionally 'masculine' that this very evening I chose to skip going out with the girls in favour of watching '202 Greatest Rugby Tries'. I'm not particularly empathetic, nor am I that interested in consensus (or rather, I care if people say they're unhappy with matters as they stand; if you don't speak up, it's your loss and I have no time for passive-aggressive behaviour like that).
Your point about developing countries is REALLY interesting, but I suspect it may have something to do with a wider openness in society than with the specific consequences that derive from having a female leader. It's very difficult to separate the two effects. Take Liberia as an example--does the election of a female leader lead to a more peaceful society, or, conversely, does it signify an existing desire to have a leader who, in part due to sex, isn't associated with the wars of the past? What's the chicken and what's the egg--and which came first? Sorry if I'm being annoying--I'm a PhD student, and a discourse analyst at that, so the idea of cause and effect always piques the old interest (especially after many, many G&T's--hence the rambling)!
I ..... I don't know about this. I definitely see where the "women are exactly equal to men, because if there are differences then we can use that to justify discrimination" argument has a very strong point, and is usually the one I ascribe to, except - there are some aspects of these stereotypes that, in my opinon, are true. When women control the finances of a household, more money's spent on food and education as opposed to male-controlled financing (this is true empiricaly in most of the developing world, at least). Women murder less and rape less. Most women tend to care more about problems that affect other women moreso than men do. There are outliers and exceptions and yes, women can be huge raving bitches and be angry as fuck and make rash decisions and murder their children - not debating that. And the "all women are little and considerate and nurturing" is bullshit as well, as I can't even keep a plant alive. But I do think that if more women were in positions of power, the world would be better off.
Also, I wonder if this had been written by a liberal woman rather than a conservative man (different justifications, but same idea) if so many people would have a problem with it.
@CherriSpryte: Again--the question is whether these behaviours are inherent or culturally ingrained. Many people (myself included) suspect there's a lot more nurture than nature in this differentiation between 'male' and 'female' styles of leadership, which I think is the crux of the argument.
I think you're right, in that if more women were in power the world would be better off. I don't, however, believe that would be the case because women are inherently nicer or more cooperative than men. I think the world would be much better if we as societies were open to the idea of 'female'-style leadership--if the concepts tradtionally associated with women, like nurturing and caring, were valued in our political elite. Whether these attributes are really accurate descriptions of most women is, however, another question--and it's one against which I suspect that many feminists, myself included, instinctively bristle.
@rah29: Oohh - I didn't think of it as a nature vs. nurture debate - I definitely think gender constructs fall heavily on the "nurture" side of things.
And I wouldn't say that women are inherently nicer or more cooperative, but I would say that peoples' priorities are sometimes different along gender lines. I think part of the problem is limiting the qualities associated with any gender to just a few things. If women were only described as "nurturing and caring", and those were the only things we were supposed to be good at, I'd be mad as hell. But if you broaden the definition to include other aspects of human nature - hell, most aspects of human nature, its a different story. Women aren't just nurturers, the same way men aren't just hunters. Both genders have an awful lot of characteristics, and I think its the narrowing of these that is upsetting people - which makes sense. I just thought rejecting this claim out of hand was too harsh.
Also, the popular idea that men were always the big strong hunters and women were fur-miniskirt-wearing baby-loving gatherers and that explains all modern gender differences drives me up the fucking wall.
Have any of you read Y: The Last Man? I know it's just a comic book and all, but I have no trouble believing that the world would not be all warm-and-fuzzy kumbayah singing if women were in charge.
@mayfly: I've not read it - yet. I always see it at the bookstore, and am intrigued (but end up spending my money on completing my Sandman collection). I agree though. We can also be nasty and brutish.
(that is not to say that all men or all women are nasty and brutish, just that humans in general can be)
Thousands of years of evolution has made me the nurturing, ineffective hunter I am today. Who needs an individual personality or skill set when you have evolution calling the shots?
Because as everybody know all women everywhere are made up entirely of sugar and spice and everything nice, as opposed to men who are made out of snails and puppydog tails.
@land surveyor k: well I just don't like the idea of someone assuming anything about me because of my gender (religion, sexual preference etc) even if its a good thing. Its insulting to be reduced to a stereotype.
@land surveyor k: Riddle me this: Should I be gladdened by the fasct that some people think I have a natural, heightened aptitude for submissiveness, peen-worshiping deference and being "domestic"/maternal by dint of my Filipino heritage?
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03/27/09
It's fine to take issue with his assumption that all women are kinder (i get it), but can you look at developing nations where they've allowed women more power and deny that things run smoother and less violently? Or that the top countries for producing terrorists are also countries where women are oppressed the most?
But it is a pain to be expected to have some higher moral aptitude just because you're a woman, but it ain't the WORST idea to foster.
I think it's equally lame for women to celebrate violence/aggression/assholetry, like it's some right that's long been denied to us. It's not, and I'd rather not stoop to the level of the less evolved patriarchies past just to convince someone I'm equal.
03/27/09
Your point about developing countries is REALLY interesting, but I suspect it may have something to do with a wider openness in society than with the specific consequences that derive from having a female leader. It's very difficult to separate the two effects. Take Liberia as an example--does the election of a female leader lead to a more peaceful society, or, conversely, does it signify an existing desire to have a leader who, in part due to sex, isn't associated with the wars of the past? What's the chicken and what's the egg--and which came first? Sorry if I'm being annoying--I'm a PhD student, and a discourse analyst at that, so the idea of cause and effect always piques the old interest (especially after many, many G&T's--hence the rambling)!
03/27/09
But I do think that if more women were in positions of power, the world would be better off.
Also, I wonder if this had been written by a liberal woman rather than a conservative man (different justifications, but same idea) if so many people would have a problem with it.
03/27/09
I judge people based on their intelligence and political positions, not based on their sex.
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I think you're right, in that if more women were in power the world would be better off. I don't, however, believe that would be the case because women are inherently nicer or more cooperative than men. I think the world would be much better if we as societies were open to the idea of 'female'-style leadership--if the concepts tradtionally associated with women, like nurturing and caring, were valued in our political elite. Whether these attributes are really accurate descriptions of most women is, however, another question--and it's one against which I suspect that many feminists, myself included, instinctively bristle.
03/28/09
And I wouldn't say that women are inherently nicer or more cooperative, but I would say that peoples' priorities are sometimes different along gender lines. I think part of the problem is limiting the qualities associated with any gender to just a few things. If women were only described as "nurturing and caring", and those were the only things we were supposed to be good at, I'd be mad as hell. But if you broaden the definition to include other aspects of human nature - hell, most aspects of human nature, its a different story. Women aren't just nurturers, the same way men aren't just hunters. Both genders have an awful lot of characteristics, and I think its the narrowing of these that is upsetting people - which makes sense. I just thought rejecting this claim out of hand was too harsh.
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(that is not to say that all men or all women are nasty and brutish, just that humans in general can be)
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I bet his girlfriend put him up to it for saying something stupid.
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Ha! Take that 4!
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