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It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
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hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
er... i never had any preconceived notions about "butch" except that maybe they were tomboyish. also, i have a total crush on rachel maddow. i have this weird thing for intellectuals, so i have no idea if it has anything to do with her appearance...

back on point, though, i definitely think of a butch lesbian as a tomboy person. it has nothing to do with their gender or sexuality, so much as an aversion to glitter and such. kind of like how i don't see the femme lesbians as anything but women who like to get dressed up. femme gay men strike me as men who are into fashion. just because a man is gay, doesn't mean he can't be into football and beer.

i don't understand why a person's sexuality changes the meaning of their personal style or visa versa... to be honest, i saw a girl with a shirt that said "gay is the new black" the other day... and it made me sad... cause it's true. this wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't the now subject. men and women of all makes, all gender preferences, all whatever could just be who they want and fuck who they want.

jeez that inadvertently turned into a rant.
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Edited by hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE at 08/27/09 11:11 PM

JerkoftheMonth
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
I very much support the idea that gender-identity should be self-defined and separated from stereotypical language.

Why then do particular LGBTs employ terms like 'butch' to define themselves (I understand why others would define them as such in ignorance) thereby aligning themselves with a certain expectation of gendered stereotype? Having supposed 'masculine' characteristics is one thing, but then characterising yourself as 'butch' while also crying foul about the negative connotations of the word is very confusing to me.
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BytheSea
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
I didn't know most of these words existed. i didn't know people were already describing the thoughts I had for myself. Thank you for posting this.
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Pantra
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
When I came out 20 years ago, both butch and femme were seen as .... intellectually lacking, shall we say, in my queer community. It was considered to be an unimaginative throwback to the 50's and that any truly intelligent woman would evolve past those silly, retro roles. The 90's changed a lot - but now that I think about it, most of the changes centered around reclaiming femme identity and broadening gender identity as a whole. Butches really haven't gotten the same kind of second look, and now that I think about it, yes, people have assumed my previous butch partners were big dumb studs. How offensive. I'm really appreciative that NPR did this.
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dcdulce promoted this comment Pantra was starred Pantra was unstarred

dcdulce
08/27/09

@Pantra: I have to agree with you concerning how in butches are/were considered dumb jocks, studs, truck drivers, etc..as you said, that the 90s were about Femme pride perhaps we are seeing a butch renaissance emerging...redefining gender identity in doc martins and horn rimmed glasses
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hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE
08/27/09

@Pantra: i'm glad to hear your comment... that's all i have to say. i was annoyed at the world for putting labels on people, and missed what is likely the whole point of the piece.

thanks.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
Okay. I am way out of my depth here, but --
since when is one's intellectual capacity tied to one's sexuality?
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NerD: Blattella
08/27/09

@Rooo sez BISH PLZ:
I think they are talking about how there is a stereotype about how a person who is considered Butch would think and behave.

I had to do some reading. I kind of get it. It seems that people don't consider Maddow butch because of her intelligence.

I get that because I wouldn't think of her as butch. In fact, until now I would have never considered that I had a preconceived notion of what butch is.

Or maybe I am way off base here.
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Sarah Dove
08/27/09

@Rooo sez BISH PLZ: To add to what NerD!!! said, I get the impression that many people expect butch people to be very keen on sports and manual work and to have kind of a coarse, bluecollar, salt of the earth quality about them - that that's part of the stereotype, in addition to grooming, dressing and speaking in ways traditionally considered masculine. Rachel Maddow appears refined and polished, as well as book-smart, so she doesn't fully fit that stereotype of 'butch.' Discussing it now, I realise that I had sort of assumed that the butch style or identity was closely linked to the blue-collar, working-class hero thing, and unconsciously expected them to be quite anti-intellectual. It's nice to have my attention called to the greater complexity of this particular subculture.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
08/27/09

@NerD!!! - R.O.A.C.H.: @Sarah Dove: Thank you both.
I think I'm also boggled b/c as a femme straight girl, we're not supposed to be intellectuals either.

I mean, that's what Ann Coulter and Liz Hasselbeck - and Ann Althouse, for that matter - have told us, right?

*boggles some more*
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Edited by Rooo sez BISH PLZ at 08/27/09 8:22 PM Rooo sez BISH PLZ was starred

JerkoftheMonth
08/27/09

@Sarah Dove: This is what I'm having problems understanding. 'Butch' as a sexually defined stereotype tends to evoke these exact meanings. What is the point of trying to change the meaning of the word? Why not explore other terminology for gender identity instead of employing such a trenchant term?
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Sarah Dove
08/27/09

@JerkoftheMonth: I can't answer for sure because I'm not butch myself, nor do I know anyone well who considers herself so. I suppose the point is that women who do the trad-masc grooming, dress and speech thing don't all identify with the blue-collar part? And what do you CALL a woman (or what does she call herself) if she does the trad-masc g., d. and sp. but not the rest of the butch stereotype? Maybe the bookish butches feel left out and hurt or angry if they're told they're not 'proper' butches, because they feel pretty butch, they'd just like it acknowledged that butch comes in a variety of flavours?
Sure, you can explore other terminology, but it seems that the women in the article, at least, want to be able to use the term butch for themselves.
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Her Grace
08/28/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Because that's not what it means, in a lot of queer circles. We're telling you that we use this word in a variety of ways--some of the ways overlap with what you have said here, but some are given in the article cited. The ones in the article are certainly broader and more empowering.
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SusanDeath
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
I just wanna throw in that I appreciate the Q at the end of the LGBTQ! As someone who WAS "Q" for the majority of my life (I'm only 23, so I was questioning my sexuality for longer than I've been out so far, from about 10 til 18-19), I love that those of us who are unsure about our identities are still recognised as being possessed of an identity.
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JerseyGrrrl
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
For lesbians, using the brain in a quantitative way is.... too feminine? Oh, gender constructs, I will never understand your many contradictions!!
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missteenwordpower
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
Does Rachel Maddow really count as "butch"? Does she identify that way?
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Penny
08/27/09

@missteenwordpower: I thought the same, not sure if she IDs that way.
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jengrrrl
08/27/09

@missteenwordpower: [www.alixolson.com]

She does.
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cait98
08/27/09

@missteenwordpower: Even if she didn't identify that way (I don't know if she does), would it be wrong to call her butch based on her appearance? Isn't that all being butch means - how you dress?
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Lymed promoted this comment Edited by cait98 at 08/27/09 6:25 PM cait98 was starred cait98 was unstarred

Lymed
08/27/09

@cait98: Quoting from the post:

That butches "only are about how we look" echoes assumptions about looks-obsessed women, but also the idea that LGBTQ identities are an act, something people put on, like drag.

and

"The point is, we don't decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."
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Azarnes
08/27/09

@cait98: Please tell me you are kidding before I start talking. i might spare us an hour or so. Short form- oh, heck no, it is an entire cultural role.
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cait98
08/27/09

@Azarnes: Is it an entire cultural role? I was serious, I guess my ignorance is showing, but I've always seen it as largely an adjective. "Butch" describes appearance - no? Like saying someone dresses "preppy." There may be attitudes or assumptions routinely associated with that look, but doesn't the word fundamentally just describe the look?

Isn't the point that stereotypes shouldn't be applied to women just because they dress a certain way?

I guess I'm wrong, I just never saw it as a whole gender-identity. Women I know who identify as butch don't conceptualize that way either. Like, they consider themselves butch (adjective) women (noun). Is it possible it means different things to different people?
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Edited by cait98 at 08/27/09 8:26 PM cait98 was starred cait98 was unstarred

babzie
08/27/09

@cait98: Going back to the 40s and 50s when working class lesbians fell into/created/adhered to the idea of butch and femme, it was an entire definition of roles pretty much as fixed and formalized as male and female roles of the time. It exteded from clothing choices to employment to bedroom habits. Contemporary defninitions are a lot more fluid. If you want to learm more, read Joan Neslte, Lillian Faderman, or Frankie Hucklenbroich, among others.
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cait98
08/27/09

@babzie: Thanks, I will.
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Penny
08/27/09

In reply to It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"
Wow, this sounds incredibly interesting. I will definitely give it a listen. Strange, though, I wasn't aware of the generalization that you can't be intellectual if you're butch.

Also, someone enlighten me.....Stud?
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Penny
08/27/09

@Penny: I also have to add that I am so happy that race and class are addressed, thoroughly and thoughtfully. These issues are so often ignored in the conversation.
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Edited by Penny at 08/27/09 6:06 PM Penny was starred Penny was unstarred

snowstellie
08/27/09

@Penny: generally, "stud," refers to a woman who is dominate, usually butch and African American. although it can be used with other Queer Women of Color (QWOC).
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Lymed
08/27/09

@Penny: I have also never associated butch with that generalization. It would be interesting to know if that is a generalization that is regional or otherwise location specific. Or if it is just because of the circles I live in that I haven't come across this generalization.
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Penny
08/27/09

@snowstellie: Thank you....learn something new every day.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
08/27/09

@Penny: I know, right? Rarely do I feel like a stupid straight girl, but this is definitely one of those times.
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Edited by Rooo sez BISH PLZ at 08/27/09 7:31 PM Rooo sez BISH PLZ was starred

rah29
08/27/09

@Lymed: Me neither. Then again my only experiences were at the women's college I attended, where I knew a few butch women who were absolutely amazing--people I would always have considered among the most intellectual on campus. In classes I was always a little afraid to get into academic debates with butch women because I assumed I would get my arse thoroughly kicked!This is so interesting, I'm going to make sure to listen to the segment.
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Edited by rah29 at 08/27/09 7:50 PM rah29 was starred rah29 was unstarred

Azarnes
08/27/09

@Penny: Historically, and I get to say that because I've worked with the Buffalo Lesbian History project, butch is a working class identity, documented as such going back to the 40's here in Buffalo. A Stud is historically a butch woman of color, usually but not always African American. Also used for some Native American butch women. The protean image of butches in the modern era comes from Stone Butch Blues, which emphasizes the class distinctions, even pointing out that a lesbian is a dyke who went to college.
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Nariel
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
Why have we not passed the Equal Rights Amendment act? I just don't understand it. When was the last time it was reintroduced?
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J.D.Regent
08/26/09

@Nariel: I believe Ted Kennedy, God rest his soul, recently reintroduced it.
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maude_flanders
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
(Obama)....did nothing to expand prevention of pay discrimination."

I'm ignorant--what could Obama (or Congress) do? Penalize employers if there's proof of wage discrimination between two employees (one male, one female) in the same position?
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FashionShowAtLunch
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
I wonder if Ms. "All Feminists Hate Babies" from the XX blog has seen this picture.
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Kivrin
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
This photo makes me think (again) that I was born in the wrong era. I was supposed to have lived during the Edwardian period, I swear I was… (And I like to think I would've been a suffragette, too!)
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lalaland13
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
Also, the fact that in many eyes, Roe v. Wade is not settled law and should be overturned. Was it Ruth Bader Ginsburg who opined that reproductive rights should be seen as a matter of equal rights?

We have so far to go, sigh. As far as we've come, it breaks my heart that any woman would declare a lady shouldn't be president because we're "too emotional." Even worse that it was my mother saying that.
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LuvEwan
08/26/09

@lalaland13: And the "too emotional" argument doesn't have to stop at just the President. Does it mean that a woman is too emotional to do a good job at any job, period? Doctors have a really important, life-and-death job. Do female doctors burst into tears at the first sign of blood or a flat line? Sigh. People say it's a generational mindset, but I've heard it echoed by twentysomethings at college more than I'd like to say.
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bluebears
08/26/09

@lalaland13: Your mother is Brooke Hogan?
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BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit)
08/26/09

@lalaland13: Yes - every person who thinks Rv.W should be overturned thinks I am not a human being but chattel. It's disgusting and terrifying.
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bluebears
08/26/09

@BrutallyHonestBabes (aka Mrs. Sarah.of.a.Lesser.Hobbit): It's an issue I just have no zone of compromise on.
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lalaland13
08/26/09

@bluebears: Thankfully, no. She's a smart, funny and kind woman who watches Fox News, unfortunately. She'll agree with me that we need health care reform one day, then start talking about people being sent to jail for praying in Florida. Surprisingly reasonable on some things, baffling on others. For instance, "I love Glenn Beck." I nearly died.
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likepenguins
08/26/09

@bluebears: Word. There are lots of things I am willing to find a compromise on. Abortion rights, minority rights and gay rights are the only three I cannot see any compromise on. Either you are with me, or you are against me; either you think people are equal or you do not. There is no grey area here, for me.
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LuvEwan
08/26/09

In reply to Women's Equality Day: Not There Yet
The patriarchy works hard to make women hate other women, and themselves. It works hard to make that which is female insignificant, secondary and lesser than what is male, what is 'right'. It puts reminders everywhere, every day, for women to find, to keep them in line. In America, it means we make less money, that our bodies are seen as weak and sexual and not our own. In other countries, it means much worse.

What every woman can do is recognize all that is stacked against us, everything that exists to make us subordinate and hateful of ourselves, and still fight to get to the place where you can say "I'm proud to be female, I'm proud to be a woman". There's so much terrible shit still going on, some of it difficult to comprehend, but I am at peace with my sex. It's the patriarchy we need to be at war with.
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jemandtheholograms
08/26/09

@LuvEwan: Women on women hate is pretty much the worst thing we can do for ourselves. Especially of the 'mommy wars' variety. Instead of telling women they are terrible for either continuing to work while they have small children OR for staying home to stay for said children, we should be working together for better childcare options and better maternity leave.

All that time spent up on the soapbox ranting about why the other person is doing it wrong, could be spent doing something useful.
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It's Possible To Be A Butch Intellectual, And Other Lessons From "Butch Voices"

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