These "The childfree shouldn't be left out! What do I get if other women get more maternity leave?" is a big part of why the US does so poorly in the rankings.
Other countries have a more collectivist mindset. An Icelandic with no plans to have kids is unlikely to think she should get something for another woman's childbearing. Raising children is a collective responsibility. Good family leave policies and subsidized day care help children grow up to be responsible adults. And that benefits the childfree because it ups the odds they'll have a nice nurse when they're in the home.
Not that this calls into question the main point made in this piece, but if this is a ranking system, is it really fair to say that because one country improves, another automatically starts doing worse?
"67% of countries were found to be improving in terms of gender equality, 33% are getting worse," but wouldn't this be the case if all the countries were objectively improving as well, since it seems to be referring to movement in the rankings, and not the actual markers used to make the rankings?
Forbes used the same language, so I'm not sure if I'm just missing something here... #gendergapindex
@GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11): I'm pretty sure it would refer to the percentage the countries were scored at (e.g., Norway got an 82.8%) rather than their movement in the rankings. So 33% of countries scored at a lower percentage than they did previously. #gendergapindex
@shoroko: And you are right, from the World Economic Forum page: "Out of the 115 countries covered in the report since 2006, more than two-thirds have posted gains in overall index scores."
I thought it wasn't perfectly clear from the Forbes page exactly what they were referring to, but maybe I'm just really sleep deprived. #gendergapindex
Re: Canadian maternity leave, what happens is you can get unemployment insurance for a year, which I think is at most 55% of your salary. I don't think there are any Canadian companies (or governments) that actually pay their employees while they take parental leave. But you have the legal right to take it and not lose your job. So that's something. #gendergapindex
Interesting that this report is sponsored by Goldman Sachs, amongst other businesses, whose Brian Giffins once said "We have to tolerate the inequality as a way to achieve greater prosperity and opportunity for all". What is the real point of this report? #gendergapindex
I feel like there's a serious misunderstanding happening in the comments here. Iceland isn't an ecomonic clusterfuck because they have a female PM; Iceland has a female PM because the economic clusterfuck resulted in a good ol' fashioned "vote the bastards out" election. Johanna is in there to fix it; she didn't cause it.
And just because this deserves to be on Jez, I was reminded of my favorite quote ever from FP magazine:
"The crisis is man-made," claims banker Halla, 40, who like all Icelanders, is only addressed by her first name. "It's always the same guys," she says. "Ninety-nine percent went to the same school, they drive the same cars, they wear the same suits and they have the same attitudes. They got us into this situation -- and they had a lot of fun doing it," she says.
@yvanehtnioj: Thank you! Fishermen turned overnight stockbrokers fucked over their own country. Women are picking up the pieces, because someone needs to. #gendergapindex
'I wonder if the U.S. isn't still a model of what actually happens when women are afforded basic human rights: A certain level of economic stability is achieved, and then people start complaining that women already have equality, and if they aren't making as much money or holding as many offices, it's probably their own fault.'
I don't wonder. If I had a nickel every time some American putz told me American women were lucky because we were completely equal in the eyes of the law (what about the stuff that falls outside those bounds? Oh how bad can it be? Your clitoris wasn't mutilated, was it? You're right. Hurray!) #gendergapindex
I'm really bummed that the the country with the narrowest gender gap is a complete wreck economically. The two are in NO WAY connected, but it still bums me out. #gendergapindex
@judgingamy: Don't worry, the president's still a dude and the PM was preceded by a dude. If anyone blames her, just turn around and blame them. #gendergapindex
@judgingamy: Well the current PM was voted in as a kind of giant 'fuck you' to the guys who screwed up Iceland's economy. So the two aren't just unconnected--one is a reaction against the other! #gendergapindex
@rah29: She was also just voted in this year. So it's like saying Obama caused our economic cluterfuck: the facts just don't support it. #gendergapindex
While I'm pretty happy to see that NZ is right up there, again, it disturbs me how far the gap is between us and Australia (not to mention USA!).
And now that Helen Clark no longer leads us, I guess I can probably put my World Leader Support behind Johanna Sigurðardóttir. Whatta woman! #gendergapindex
I think until we address maternity leave and women's health in general we are going to keep slipping. Because sure I can work 90 hours a week and make a lot of money, but then I 'm going to drop dead from stress and poor healthcare and my kids will grow up calling the Nanny "mom". #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: This is one of the reasons the Nordic countries rate so high. I can only really talk about Sweden, where I lived for a spell, but there they have long paid leaves for both men and women. Bringing that to North America would require not only a change in attitudes but an overhaul of the social and economic systems. #gendergapindex
@garconne est grise: Canada has 1 year of leave, so not necessarily North America. The US won't ever enact it because too many people have the "I didn't get it so neither should you" attitude about these things. #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: This is also a really tough sell for those of us who choose not to have children. Should companies give a paid sabbatical to anyone who wants it? #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: I'm not sure! I'm Canadian, but don't know many people with babies or even real jobs (with benefits, that is). #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: From a government site: "Approximately one third of collective agreements include a provision for a few days’ paternity leave. Paternity leave of several weeks' duration is rarely offered by Canadian employers."
I also says that in 3 provinces maternity leave can be shared, as you mentioned. #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: Yup. Until it's the norm for women from all economic backgrounds to have complete control over their reproduction and the ability to start families without going into debt, dying or losing their jobs, it is virtually impossible for equality to be achieved. Ever. And that's not even bringing the fathers, partners or abuse into it. #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: I think it may vary by province. Also, women can take both pregnancy and parental leave but men can only take parental leave (duh), though they can do it while their wife is pregnant. Not sure about adoptive parents, but there's probably something for them, too. However, I'm not sure if these lleaves have to be paid leaves, legally. (Which really makes them non-options for many people.) #gendergapindex
@FatLynn: That is exactly the attitude that holds us back. No one wants anyone to get something more than what they themselves get. I am probably done having kids, and I still think maternity leave is a good idea. #gendergapindex
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: I do know one canadian who gets money from the government and I thought she could have shared the leave with her husband. But maybe you are right that it varies by province. #gendergapindex
@Working-for-the-weekend: If you are going to have a child, you plan financially for that. Isn't part of the plan making sure you can afford to take the unpaid leave allowed by FMLA? #gendergapindex
@FatLynn: As ShinyMcShine said, having children benefits the society. Your coworkers' children (and immigrants) will be the one working in stores, on busses... they will be your doctors when you are no longer working. Are you ready to take the risk of not having a doctor (or a clerk or whatever) just beacuse other women can't afford children and you choose not to have them? #gendergapindex
@FatLynn: Except that half of pregnancies are unplanned (though not necessarily unwanted). And of course, as so many people are figuring out in this recession, plans fail. In an ideal world, you'd make sure to have a financially secure partner that won't leave or cheat on you, lots of savings and a boss who not only gives you parental leave, but gives it happily (rather than begrudgingly or with a promise to never hire a woman your age again). #gendergapindex
@FatLynn: It is part of the plan. (which is why I am done with having children, after one, because I will never be able to afford 2). I just don't think it should be part of the plan. I think that America society as a whole undervalues parents and what they do for everyone. The government should understand that and bear some of the cost.
We are raising taxpayers, after all, who will someday support the government, and yes, who will someday support you through their wages. The least they can do is give the child some of that up front so they can have a mother and/or father who can keep them home for three months when they are still pretty fragile, and while the mother is sill recovering physically and emotionally from the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth. #gendergapindex
@Rides towards the night: The U.S. already has one of the highest birth rates in the industrialized world, without the benefits you are advocating. Do you think we need a higher birth rate to bring us in line with countries like China or Albania? Create an argument that will convince a childless American like me that parents should be rewarded for something they are already (in great numbers) choosing to do. #gendergapindex
@FatLynn: I might not have kids, but I think that society as a whole benefits when good parenting is supported, because the baby army will take over someday. Also, it worries me that your argument could be taken further by some to say if women have kids, the cost should be borne out by those women, and not men in order to justify things like higher insurance premiums for women. #gendergapindex
@Rides towards the night: But where does it stop? I already pay a LOT of money in taxes to benefit those who are having children, now I should take lower wages, too? I understand your points, I am just saying that society is not responsible for compensating parents every time they make a sacrifice. #gendergapindex
Would this be a bad time to mention that I read Iceland was so bad economically that even McDonald's is pulling out of the entire country? #gendergapindex
@dianabanana: Or that South Africa still hasn't really dealt with the disparity between races. Or that abortion is still illegal in Ireland AND the Philippines. Or that 50% of women in urban areas of Lesotho who are under 40 are HIV-positive.
@winner: Yeah, I think this ranking is a perfect example of what feminists talk about when they talk about how gender issues cannot be separated from class, race or sexuality. Not that I think this was created by anyone who doesn't realize this. #gendergapindex
@winner: In the methodology section they explain that they consider women's health relative to men's health, which might account for why the HIV rates in Lesotho don't bring down its rank too much (if men have similar rates of infection). That's the case across all four subcategories; they're only measuring women's status relative to men's, not the development status of the country as a whole. The 'health and survival' subindex only uses two weighted ratios: female life-expectancy relative to male, and the female-to-male ratio of births (which is meant to help account for female infanticide/ gender-selection abortions--the 'missing women' phenomenon). That helps to explain why Ireland does well despite the lack of legal abortion. It's not perfect by any means, especially since they deliberately don't account for 'cultural' issues, but it's interesting nonetheless and at least it's pretty transparent.
As a side note, I'm Irish, and I do think women here are more visible in politics, education, business and the media than they are in the US or UK, where I've also lived. That's totally anecdotal and intangible, but it's just my impression! #gendergapindex
@rah29: While I'd agree with you on politics and education, in what way do you think women are more visible in business and media?
I feel that whenever business or media is discussed it is always a parade of men (like in the tribunals or Anglo's golden circle)
I'm Irish too, and while I do think we could do with more women in politics, I think we are lucky in that the ones we have do tend to rise quite high. I read someone where once (and I'm sure I read it, and I'm not just pulling it out of my ass) that Ireland is the only country in the world that has elected sucessive women as the head of state. #gendergapindex
@velleity: Oh I agree it's a total parade of men, particularly in the kind of upper-echelon business stuff (ie, the lads that fucked up the country... thanks for that fellas). All I was saying was I think it's at least a little better than the US or UK, totally anecdotally. It might be just the particular circles I'm in, but I feel like I know of a fair few female business owners, particularly in the realm of small businesses. But we're certainly not there yet.
As for the media, I'll concede that may be a consequence of the fact that I've been working at home lately and have watched a LOT of daytime tv!
I will say, though, that I recently went to a school reunion and it was striking how much better the women were doing (we're in our mid-20s). Given the recession a fair number just didn't have jobs at all, but the women were outperforming the men in a serious way, in fields ranging from pharmaceuticals to teaching to grad school. I was particularly struck by the fact that the girls who didn't have jobs were at least doing something, often graduate programmes or part-time work, whereas the guys seemed totally lost. #gendergapindex
@velleity: Oh and to your second point--I work in a political field, and I think one of the interesting things about Ireland is that our female pols, although a too-small proportion of the Oireachtas, tend to have really prominent positions. A LOT of women are serving as party spokespeople for various things. The only place I think women are underrepresented is the Cabinet, but even then, a woman has at least been Tanaiste for most of the last 12 years (Mary H, then a break before Mary C). #gendergapindex
@rah29: It's good to think that we are ok in terms of business things, even at a smaller level. I wonder if possibly it is easier for women to set up sucessful businesses then advance in established ones.
I think things have definitely improved in politics, especially because I think we are moving a bit away from political dynasties, so women who run and are elected aren't just the daughter of someone.
As for the media, have you also become weirdly hypnotised by The Afternoon Show? #gendergapindex
One additional way that Iceland is awesome? It's the only country in which I've travelled (a woman alone) where I was not constantly looking over my shoulder. Even on the streets (and in the bars) or Reykjavik at 2 am. Felt perfectly safe. I can't believe that is not a factor in why women do better there. #gendergapindex
@boobookitteh: I've never been to Iceland, but I can say that I expierenced this while living in Tokyo. I never felt uncomfortable being alone on the streets there, and I assure you, I walked them way late at night in questionable states of sobriety on several occasions. It was so ..refreshing.
Now, Japan's gender equality situation is another discussion. #gendergapindex
@boobookitteh: I've had the same experience in Munich. I would walk alone there at 2 am but not in the small town (population around 10k) where I live. #gendergapindex
@SlayBelle: ah, well, my illusions are dashed then! I tend to be very paranoid however, so the lack of even unspoken harrassment was a refreshing change in Iceland. #gendergapindex
@boobookitteh: I felt really safe when I was living in Prague. Being a woman alone in a variety of scenarios there made me wish it was like that here in New Orleans. #gendergapindex
@hydrogen_jukebox: It's great that Iceland is all about gender equality, but perhaps in the worst financial crisis of our time, we should not be looking to a bankrupt country for inspiration. Who's number two? Can we be like them instead? #gendergapindex
@morninggloria: That was my thought...oh look, a country in economic collapse is #1 in gender equality. Rush Limbaugh can start theorizing in 3...2...1... #gendergapindex
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Other countries have a more collectivist mindset. An Icelandic with no plans to have kids is unlikely to think she should get something for another woman's childbearing. Raising children is a collective responsibility. Good family leave policies and subsidized day care help children grow up to be responsible adults. And that benefits the childfree because it ups the odds they'll have a nice nurse when they're in the home.
We're all in this together. #gendergapindex
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"67% of countries were found to be improving in terms of gender equality, 33% are getting worse," but wouldn't this be the case if all the countries were objectively improving as well, since it seems to be referring to movement in the rankings, and not the actual markers used to make the rankings?
Forbes used the same language, so I'm not sure if I'm just missing something here... #gendergapindex
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I thought it wasn't perfectly clear from the Forbes page exactly what they were referring to, but maybe I'm just really sleep deprived. #gendergapindex
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And just because this deserves to be on Jez, I was reminded of my favorite quote ever from FP magazine:
"The crisis is man-made," claims banker Halla, 40, who like all Icelanders, is only addressed by her first name. "It's always the same guys," she says. "Ninety-nine percent went to the same school, they drive the same cars, they wear the same suits and they have the same attitudes. They got us into this situation -- and they had a lot of fun doing it," she says.
[blog.foreignpolicy.com]
(I also recommend their piece on The Death of Macho in re: the recession.) Erm, that is all. #gendergapindex
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I don't wonder. If I had a nickel every time some American putz told me American women were lucky because we were completely equal in the eyes of the law (what about the stuff that falls outside those bounds? Oh how bad can it be? Your clitoris wasn't mutilated, was it? You're right. Hurray!) #gendergapindex
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While I'm pretty happy to see that NZ is right up there, again, it disturbs me how far the gap is between us and Australia (not to mention USA!).
And now that Helen Clark no longer leads us, I guess I can probably put my World Leader Support behind Johanna Sigurðardóttir. Whatta woman! #gendergapindex
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I also says that in 3 provinces maternity leave can be shared, as you mentioned. #gendergapindex
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As someone mentions upthread, the female PM is there to fix things, not the cause of their economic woes. #gendergapindex
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We are raising taxpayers, after all, who will someday support the government, and yes, who will someday support you through their wages. The least they can do is give the child some of that up front so they can have a mother and/or father who can keep them home for three months when they are still pretty fragile, and while the mother is sill recovering physically and emotionally from the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth. #gendergapindex
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I guess they get an A for effort... #gendergapindex
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As a side note, I'm Irish, and I do think women here are more visible in politics, education, business and the media than they are in the US or UK, where I've also lived. That's totally anecdotal and intangible, but it's just my impression! #gendergapindex
10/28/09
I feel that whenever business or media is discussed it is always a parade of men (like in the tribunals or Anglo's golden circle)
I'm Irish too, and while I do think we could do with more women in politics, I think we are lucky in that the ones we have do tend to rise quite high. I read someone where once (and I'm sure I read it, and I'm not just pulling it out of my ass) that Ireland is the only country in the world that has elected sucessive women as the head of state. #gendergapindex
10/28/09
As for the media, I'll concede that may be a consequence of the fact that I've been working at home lately and have watched a LOT of daytime tv!
I will say, though, that I recently went to a school reunion and it was striking how much better the women were doing (we're in our mid-20s). Given the recession a fair number just didn't have jobs at all, but the women were outperforming the men in a serious way, in fields ranging from pharmaceuticals to teaching to grad school. I was particularly struck by the fact that the girls who didn't have jobs were at least doing something, often graduate programmes or part-time work, whereas the guys seemed totally lost. #gendergapindex
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I think things have definitely improved in politics, especially because I think we are moving a bit away from political dynasties, so women who run and are elected aren't just the daughter of someone.
As for the media, have you also become weirdly hypnotised by The Afternoon Show? #gendergapindex
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Now, Japan's gender equality situation is another discussion. #gendergapindex
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Therefore, gender equality causes bankruptcy. #gendergapindex
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Therefore, elves and fairies are required for true gender equality. #gendergapindex
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