When my family's synagogue hired a gay Rabbi over 10 years ago, a number of congregants quit the congregation and formed a congregation of their own. Those who didn't want to come off as homophobic claimed it wasn't because the Rabbi was gay, but because they didn't want their sons Bar Mitzvahed by a woman. The new congregation was denied membership in the Union of Reform Judaism for a number of years, but I think they were eventually allowed to join.
@Nariel: My family's synagogue has survived with a lesbian Rabbi with a congregation that has grown more socially conscious under her direction. We often equate religious with more conservative religious groups, but that is not always the case. Many progressive leaders in our country are religious, they just don't talk about their religion.
@Lymed: I think that Sadie was saying that Rabbi Wenig herself perhaps represents the fringe of Reform Judaism as a lesbian woman rabbi, not that Reform Judaism is "fringe."
@Lymed: I've never had anyone actually say that to my face... though I've heard it in movies and tv shows, generally coming from an Orthodox character. Then again, to the Orthodox, I'm not Jewish at all. :-/
@dj_chick: I've heard it, and I've heard it second hand from conservatives. Or not those actual words, but demeaning statements suggesting Reform traditions are not Jewish enough. I understand they are different than Conservative traditions, but I don't think one is more Jewish than the other.
@GirlyQ ain't a-marchin' anymore: Yeah, I'm of the God has no one gender point of view. I mean, "So God created human beings in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." makes pretty clear that a woman is equally an image bearer of God to a man.
@BlueJeans: When I was just a wee Catholic attending CCD classes on Wednesday night, I remember more than one teacher telling us that men are the heads of their family because God is a man and men are made in God's Image and women were made in the image of the dude's sexy, busty, rib.
@morninggloria: I must have much more progressive CCD teachers (Baltimore Catholic Kennedy Democrats tend that way, I suppose). Although my strongest memory is of setting the fire alarm with burning papers with our sins written on them because our teacher misinterpreted the lesson plan, mostly our teachers were competent enough to tell us that we could say "God" instead of "He" at mass, since God didn't have a gender.
Surprisingly, I didn't get the "God is a man" bullshit until my (all-girls) Catholic school, when a dropped-out seminarian teaching senior Religion blustered on about how offensive the "God doesn't have a gender" stuff was to him. Between that and his misinterpretations on the Church position on the death penalty, I snapped one day and brought him in thirty pages of excerpts from canon and papal encyclicals. Thereafter, we just watched movies every day in religion class.
Larger point: maybe since most of human history has been determined by who has the bigger gun/stick/rock/fist, and people thought of gods as physical/active powers, men decided god = masculine force?
When will all of the religions of the world understand that being gay isn't a choice and therefore should not be condemned as a sin? It is how God made some people.
@badmutha: You know, every time I hear that line of thought, it always rubs me the TINIEST bit the wrong way. I'm behind the sentiment, but the fact that the thing that is keeping homosexuals from sinning is the fact that they were born that way seems like it's almost presuming that there's something to apologize/explain about being gay. Being gay isn't a sin because there's nothing immoral about a consenting adult choosing to be romantically and sexually involved with another consenting adult. For instance, we might find down the line that people are born with a predilicition for violence - it would still make violence wrong and wouldn't affect the morality of homosexuality.
@schweppes: I see what you are saying. I think it can get very complex if you want to argue the positions. Man obviously does have a predilection for violence, but that violence usually hurts another person. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone.
@badmutha: There are sins (e.g. coveting your neighbor's wife) that don't harm anyone else. I don't know, it just seems like saying things like "It doesn't hurt anyone" or "They are born that way" is what throws the conversation into a tailspin of arguing about whether someone really IS gay or how someone being gay hurts some Utah 5-year-old 2000 miles away. It's like, no.... trying to explain why being gay isn't a sin is just as ridiculous as trying to explain why being straight, dying your hair red, and being left handed aren't sins.
@schweppes: I'm the same way when people talk about 'tolerance.' As if that's the best you can do, to simply tolerate someone homosexual or with different colored skin.
@nagumi: For some of us, it is a choice. Those of us who are bisexual have the explicit option to act upon our homosexual or heterosexual urges--or both--and effectively do have some choice in the matter of the people we have sex with. We can no more control who we fall in love with than anyone else, and it would certainly break my heart to not be with my girlfriend, but I could have a sexually fulfilled life with a man and quite possibly an emotionally fulfilled one, as well (I can't say for sure, as I have no intention of ever breaking up with my girl). But my decision to date my girlfriend, when I have a legit option to see men, can rightly be construed as a choice.
The notion of sin is silly anyway. Ethics must come from within, not an outside source.
It just means we need to train audiences to follow women's sports with the same rabid passion they've long had for the Dodgers or the Lakers.
This isn't nearly as easy as you're implying. ESPN has been trying to train more men to watch soccer for years, and with very little success, and training, for that matter, isn't the word. They'll need to be around for a lot longer than a decade to be part of the larger culture, but the truth is that they'll need to be salient while they wait, and I don't know who's going to make such a long term investment.
Some of the traveling-to-see-sports things just depends on the specific sport and parent. For instance, my dad came to my track meets and swim meets for years, but my mom never came to see me compete in a sport until I started doing gymnastics--she just thought that sounded more fun.
Also, the whole family went to see my sister play soccer in large part because we were really, really hoping she'd stick with it.
My neighbor boys all played soccer for so long it was a community--parents could trade off attending games and out-of-town events, knowing the other chaperons were people they trusted and that they wouldn't miss anything life changing.
(I feel like there's an inappropriate women sweeping joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave that to the deadspin boys)
Seriously though, I love watching women's curling more than the men's. Maybe because I know the players better? Which may be the root of why men's professional sports are watched more often - player recognition?
@Le Kangourou de Kataroo: I think you're on to something with player recognition--if I know someone, or *think* I know someone (like I've just read an essay about them, or a friend knows them), I am much more likely to be emotionally involved in their projects.
Humans love narratives, and we love feeling connected to the story. Make women's sports just as much a narrative as men's are--give them the build-up, and the close examination of each player, and the montage about their background.
I think it's a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B.
Sports are kind of like a soap opera, in that half the fun is in the drama: picking a favorite team, picking favorite players, finding somebody to root for, following along with the highs and lows of a close game or an entire season. Without regular television coverage, it's really tough to get into it. And the irony in women's sports is that they get more coverage on the college end than the professional end (at least in their local markets). The NBA wasn't drawing huge crowds in its early years, either--it took the television era to do that. Once people could watch games on TV and get regular coverage on their daily news, they got drawn in. A lot of times, people will get into one sport, follow it on Sportscenter, and then get drawn into another sport that's also being covered on Sportscenter, so they decide to check out a game on their TV, which converts them into a fan. Until women's sports are widely covered on programs like that, and widely available to watch, they don't really stand a chance of being as popular as the men's sports. (And obviously, until they're as popular as the men's sports, it's unlikely they'll get covered on those programs, so . . .)
But the other half of it is that most people don't get into watching sports on their own--and this is doubly true of girls and women, whom it's not expected of. They get into it because of a dad or a brother, or later, male friends or a boyfriend. (I'm not saying that they never get it from a mom or a sister or female friends--just that it's comparatively rare.) And because those men are often prejudiced against the idea of women's sports (either legitimately prejudiced, in that they prefer a different style of play, or illegitimately prejudiced, in that "they just don't like watching women's sports"), often the girls/women go along with it, at least for a while. But even women who do want to watch women's sports have a hard time finding somebody to go with them.
If ESPN would ever show any WNBA games, Mr. Pietra and I would cheerfully watch them. However, every time we turn on a game, it's been usurped by some pointless mini-documentary about rookies in the NBA or some such nonsense. SHOW ME SOME FREAKIN' BASKETBALL. I'm drowning in a sea of guys whacking balls with sticks, here.
I had someone (a rather intelligent and level-headed man) tell me once that people are cool with girls' sports b/c it encourages positive self-esteem, team-playing, physical health, toughness. However, he told me that after high school, people tend to wonder "what's wrong" with these women? As though they should've grown out of the whole physical activity/sports thing and be more "feminine." He says that fans are generally paying more attention to what the girls look like and trying to decide whether or not they're lesbians or not.
I hate to admit it, but I can believe this kind of thinking kind of fuels the issue with people not supporting women's sports. And I can attest to people wondering "what's wrong" - I play rugby - despite my team being 50/50 straight/gay-other. We virtually have no fans and it's hard as hell to get people to come to the games - even my own FRIENDS. But the men's games? Fans galore. And we were undefeated this spring season.
Let me recommend a grad-school thesis documentary I came across: Paradox on the Pitch. It tells a lot about women's rugby from a rookie's viewpoint. There are 3 parts to it.
@shorty63136: That's terrible! I used to play women's rugby in college, and although our fan base was smaller than the men's team, my teammates were able to pull in friends/significant others/friends from sororities and other extracurricular groups. :/
I think that your acquaintance's comment is interesting for two reasons though: 1) I know a lot of folks (men and women) who play in social leagues after college. I mean, it's kickball, and it's partly an excuse to mingle and drink (not unlike casual collegiate rugby clubs!) but no one seems to give women the side eye for participating. I have friends who have dealt or seen some sexism in their teams or other teams but no one is thinking that there is something flawed with these women. 2) On the other hand, I have known some players who are interested in post-college women's rugby teams who have gotten a lot more flack about it from the people in their lives then the players who want to join a men's team. WTF?
Finally, congrats on being undefeated! (My college team, despite my and a few other teammates best efforts, weren't very successful in our local area.) Which part of the country do you play in?
I play on a competitive team in the south (which makes rugby that much more obscure). Not exactly kickball but we like to think we're pretty hardcore and have had a reputation for being that.
What I love about our team is we've got a little bit of every kind of person. One of our players joined after having three kids, some (like myself) had never played an organized sport ever in life, we've got some with 20+ years of experience, we've got girls who also bring in experience from soccer, footy, Aussie rules rugby, and Gaelic football.
It's my goal to get a sideline full of fans for the fall season.
@shorty63136: Hmm, for some reason I had read your original post and thought that you were playing in a college team. My apologies--mind if we take this to the PMs? I'm nosy. ;)
Wait wait wait. Didn't we have a post awhile back about how girls from middle and upper class families have achieved parity with boys as far as participating in sports go (approximately 45% participate, if memory serves) but girls from lower class backgrounds are far less likely to compete (something like 12% participate) where as income level and social class don't tend to matter as much with the boys?
Wouldn't it then logically follow that since the girls' group isn't "diluted" with lower income peers, a higher proportion of families would choose to attend the girls' games simply because they could afford to compared with the boys who would reflect various high and low income levels, so a smaller proportion of parents would attend due to the smaller proportion of middle and upper class athletes?
@Zombie Ms. Skittles: Hmm, very interesting. I definitely think that could be a contributing factor (though on any of these travel teams, the percentage of middle class kids is way higher than a school team.) So what you point out is probably less true at younger ages when more travel teams are specialized leagues and more so when youth are older and their school teams travel more.
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Well, maybe not in this specific case.
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But, this makes me proud to be a Jew.
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Most of CCD is blocked from memory, to be honest.
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Surprisingly, I didn't get the "God is a man" bullshit until my (all-girls) Catholic school, when a dropped-out seminarian teaching senior Religion blustered on about how offensive the "God doesn't have a gender" stuff was to him. Between that and his misinterpretations on the Church position on the death penalty, I snapped one day and brought him in thirty pages of excerpts from canon and papal encyclicals. Thereafter, we just watched movies every day in religion class.
Larger point: maybe since most of human history has been determined by who has the bigger gun/stick/rock/fist, and people thought of gods as physical/active powers, men decided god = masculine force?
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The notion of sin is silly anyway. Ethics must come from within, not an outside source.
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This isn't nearly as easy as you're implying. ESPN has been trying to train more men to watch soccer for years, and with very little success, and training, for that matter, isn't the word. They'll need to be around for a lot longer than a decade to be part of the larger culture, but the truth is that they'll need to be salient while they wait, and I don't know who's going to make such a long term investment.
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Also, the whole family went to see my sister play soccer in large part because we were really, really hoping she'd stick with it.
My neighbor boys all played soccer for so long it was a community--parents could trade off attending games and out-of-town events, knowing the other chaperons were people they trusted and that they wouldn't miss anything life changing.
Anecdotal explanation.
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(I feel like there's an inappropriate women sweeping joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave that to the deadspin boys)
Seriously though, I love watching women's curling more than the men's. Maybe because I know the players better? Which may be the root of why men's professional sports are watched more often - player recognition?
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Humans love narratives, and we love feeling connected to the story. Make women's sports just as much a narrative as men's are--give them the build-up, and the close examination of each player, and the montage about their background.
07/29/09
As a Canadian, even I think it's weird that you know the name of a single curler, male or female.
07/29/09
Sports are kind of like a soap opera, in that half the fun is in the drama: picking a favorite team, picking favorite players, finding somebody to root for, following along with the highs and lows of a close game or an entire season. Without regular television coverage, it's really tough to get into it. And the irony in women's sports is that they get more coverage on the college end than the professional end (at least in their local markets). The NBA wasn't drawing huge crowds in its early years, either--it took the television era to do that. Once people could watch games on TV and get regular coverage on their daily news, they got drawn in. A lot of times, people will get into one sport, follow it on Sportscenter, and then get drawn into another sport that's also being covered on Sportscenter, so they decide to check out a game on their TV, which converts them into a fan. Until women's sports are widely covered on programs like that, and widely available to watch, they don't really stand a chance of being as popular as the men's sports. (And obviously, until they're as popular as the men's sports, it's unlikely they'll get covered on those programs, so . . .)
But the other half of it is that most people don't get into watching sports on their own--and this is doubly true of girls and women, whom it's not expected of. They get into it because of a dad or a brother, or later, male friends or a boyfriend. (I'm not saying that they never get it from a mom or a sister or female friends--just that it's comparatively rare.) And because those men are often prejudiced against the idea of women's sports (either legitimately prejudiced, in that they prefer a different style of play, or illegitimately prejudiced, in that "they just don't like watching women's sports"), often the girls/women go along with it, at least for a while. But even women who do want to watch women's sports have a hard time finding somebody to go with them.
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I hate to admit it, but I can believe this kind of thinking kind of fuels the issue with people not supporting women's sports. And I can attest to people wondering "what's wrong" - I play rugby - despite my team being 50/50 straight/gay-other. We virtually have no fans and it's hard as hell to get people to come to the games - even my own FRIENDS. But the men's games? Fans galore. And we were undefeated this spring season.
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Let me recommend a grad-school thesis documentary I came across: Paradox on the Pitch. It tells a lot about women's rugby from a rookie's viewpoint. There are 3 parts to it.
07/29/09
I think that your acquaintance's comment is interesting for two reasons though:
1) I know a lot of folks (men and women) who play in social leagues after college. I mean, it's kickball, and it's partly an excuse to mingle and drink (not unlike casual collegiate rugby clubs!) but no one seems to give women the side eye for participating. I have friends who have dealt or seen some sexism in their teams or other teams but no one is thinking that there is something flawed with these women.
2) On the other hand, I have known some players who are interested in post-college women's rugby teams who have gotten a lot more flack about it from the people in their lives then the players who want to join a men's team. WTF?
Finally, congrats on being undefeated! (My college team, despite my and a few other teammates best efforts, weren't very successful in our local area.) Which part of the country do you play in?
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I play on a competitive team in the south (which makes rugby that much more obscure). Not exactly kickball but we like to think we're pretty hardcore and have had a reputation for being that.
What I love about our team is we've got a little bit of every kind of person. One of our players joined after having three kids, some (like myself) had never played an organized sport ever in life, we've got some with 20+ years of experience, we've got girls who also bring in experience from soccer, footy, Aussie rules rugby, and Gaelic football.
It's my goal to get a sideline full of fans for the fall season.
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Wouldn't it then logically follow that since the girls' group isn't "diluted" with lower income peers, a higher proportion of families would choose to attend the girls' games simply because they could afford to compared with the boys who would reflect various high and low income levels, so a smaller proportion of parents would attend due to the smaller proportion of middle and upper class athletes?
07/29/09