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If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
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kristinab
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
to speak to the question of why a woman would want to go into the military, an institution that seems to care little for the empowerment of women either at home or abroad, and furthermore has had less-than-honorable, resource-driven intentions:

as usual, the same reasons that men want to join. we have, in this country, what is essentially an economic draft. the military is the one place where you are guaranteed a lifetime of employment, medical benefits, and housing. no other place--besides maybe jail--offers such a guarantee to a woman or man with a high school diploma.

also, statistics indicate that more than half of the men in the military are from abusive homes; more than half of the women in the military report leaving abusive relationships prior to enlisting.

it used to be that military service was spread out amongst classes and races, although once in the military, different classes and races were assigned very different duties. now, because much of the military's work has been outsourced to the private sector (blackwater, KBR, et cetera), and for other reasons, high income kids are less interested in joining up. thus we have in a military wherein people of color and people from poor backgrounds are vastly over represented.

so usually, when the question is: why would a woman do X? just ask: well, why would a man do X?...the answer, more often than not, is the same...
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first man
08/17/09

@kristinab: I would promote you if I could.

I think a draft is probably not a good idea, but at least with the draft everyone has a chance of going instead of one particular class.
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MichelleAmphithea
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
I hope this will be some good news to some here. As a response to the high level of sexual assault, rape and violence that exists within military culture, the nonprofit organization Men Can Stop Rape released a social marketing campaign in April that was done in partnership with the Department of Defense. This campaign, which will have materials in all branches of the military on every base in the globe, stresses the importance of a preventative environment. The materials encourage soldiers (male and female) take actions, for example, breaking up situations that could lead to assault and reporting incidents when they happen. The posters stress the idea that such actions are part of the duty of ALL military personnel.

I understand that there is a complex structure to the military, and I do not doubt the claims that describe the military as an inherently hierarchical, aggressive, patriarchal and dominating
institution. Many feminist organizations were angry with Men Can Stop Rape for deciding to work with the military. I don't blame them in some ways. Who knows if the campaign will work, but we can at least say it is a step in the right direction, i.e. that a historically patriarchal institution has taken the guidance and advice of a pro-feminist organization.
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TheGuvnah
08/17/09

@MichelleAmphithea: Thanks for the info. Sounds like a great campaign.
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youbehim
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
I read the title as "If women can deal with combat, they can deal with sexual harassment"

hah. wouldn't that be an interesting read.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@youbehim: Haha, it's an interesting argument.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Except the people doing the sexual harassing are often superior officers, and accusing them of anything, or doing anything in one's own offense, is insubordination. Still laughing ?
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: Why do you have it out for me? The joke is that if that were the headline, it would be absolutely absurd and misogynistic.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: I have it out for you? Looks like you like to stick your foot in your mouth, then whine when you get called on it. You can fix that, I can't.
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boxingoctopus should be dissertating
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
My stepsister just returned from an abruptly abbreviated deployment in Iraq. She's been in the Army since graduating high school -- 10 years or so -- and she's now been discharged after reporting a stalker/harasser. I can't really go into the details, but apparently if you are a woman and you blow the whistle on a harasser over there, you might have to surrender your weapon and find the firing pin removed when you get it back. Oh, and you make that discovery after you've been transported via helicopter, fired upon, and possibly have had to engage in combat.
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sewradical
08/17/09

@boxingoctopus has a thing thing for the Ting Tings: Fuck. I got nothing else to say.
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ZombieEmpress
08/17/09

@boxingoctopus has a thing thing for the Ting Tings: I wish I had the powers to promote that. Its stories like that that prevent me from even considering going into the military. Why would I risk dying for a country that so obviously does not appreciate the sacrifice? Your stepsister is a much better person, than me.
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notheretomakefriends
08/17/09

@boxingoctopus has a thing thing for the Ting Tings: oh for the fuck of shit! Like it's not bad enough she puts herself in danger for your country, while undergoing strenuous physical and mental practice, she also has to deal with vile bastards in her own team, and smile about it?
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
I understand that this might be read the wrong way, so I hope I explain myself clearly.

I want to know why women want to join the military anyways. Not because it's unsuitable - or whatever - for women, but because it is the culmination of millennia of patriarchal aggression and violence. It exists to define which country is strongest (not smartest), ruthless towards its enemies (not diplomatic), and who can scare, bully, and kill other people into submission, and these are all traditionally defined 'masculine' traits (in the performative sense). While I applaud the courage and strength of the women who do participate in the military, I just don't understand why they want to.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Er....yeah, thanks for dismissing the entire military as being stupid, violent, murderous, and so forth. That's called a straw question. Care to try again?

FYI, before GBI and GBII, it was possible to join the military and do things like be a nurse, a doctor, a journalist, etc., etc., and touch a rifle only on a range once a year.

Try and learn something about the subject at hand before you go off on it in such a loaded way.

In order to answer your question, one would have to wade through all YOUR terms, and I refuse those terms' validity. So. Try again.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: I'm not speaking of individuals in the military, I'm referring to the entire subject of military power, whose entire purpose is to defend a country through war. That is, as you say, 'stupid, violent, murderous, and so forth'.
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itsonreserve
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: That plays into the assumption that all men are "masculine" and all women, "feminine". As a "masculine" lady myself, though I have no inclination towards military life, I am severely interested in war. It's not always just a boys game of mean fighting. Look at World War II; certainly "feminine" diplomacy with Hitler would have went swimmingly. Also, between wars our military is used most often for peace keeping purposes in struggling nations, as well as for nation building such as implementing infrastructure. For many more "masculine" women, their belief system is such that working in this capacity for their country can be prideful and an interest. Heck, maybe they even do really like war. We're all different. There are millions of reasons to join the military from "it's my only option" to "my parents did it" to "I would be very happy to do that." It's sad that for whatever reason, women who choose this environment have to deal with this bullshit.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: You may not like their terms, but they do have a point. Individual military members are not necessarily stupid, ruthless, violent, murderous killing machines. But, that is the point of the military. The military is about proving a country to be strong, ruthless, capable of killing for defensive and offensive purposes, and "to scare, bully, and kill other people into submission." What else would it's purpose be?
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KellyKapowski
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: I joined because I was 20, working 2 jobs, struggling to pay rent, and never going to get the chance to afford school or travel. I am indifferent to my job because I realize no matter how much I hate it I still have to do it for the next 3 years. However, in the last 3 years I have been able to afford to travel where ever I want, I have free health care and utilize it every chance I get, and I will complete my bachelors for free before I get out. I get all of those things, but in return I have to be on call 24/7 and possibly spend time in a war zone risking my life. I did not join for a sense of duty or to go to combat but I made a decision knowing the consequences.
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ArgusRun
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: As long as other countries have military power and the ability to harm other countries, it is prudent to have our own.

Standing unarmed in a roomful of people wielding weapons may feel like a noble thing to do, but it is hardly practical or wise.

Also, I would object to the notion that warfare is a patriarchal invention. The old trope that there would be no wars if women were in charge of things is both naive and insulting. War or any fomr of violent social conflict has real world causes. Competition over land, resources, power. Said conflicts would exist regardless of who was in charge. Such conflicts can not always be resolved using words. Sometimes you need to use your fists especially is someone swings at you first.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@itsonreserve: Firstly, thanks for you very thoughtful response.

I'm not assuming that men are masculine and women are feminine, but I'm referring to the assumptions of society that more often than not dictate the expectations and actions of said gender stereotypes. I don't think men are inherently masculine, but I think the majority of them act out perceived masculinity because that's what they are told to do. So men don't go to war because they are masculine, but because they think they should be. And the military, as a show of - let's face it - masculine power - seems, to me, an unlikely place for women to be able to exert their own power (though, like I said, my respect for them is immense).
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@utensil42: You have no clue how the military works. I'll clue you in a little. There are JOBS in the military. For example the Navy, Marine Corps, Army, and Air Force has doctors, dentists, construction workers, nurses, computer technicians, mechanics, administration professionals, intelligence. There are many more. We don't all run around with guns talking about how much fun killing people will be. There are many reasons to join the military, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most people don't join so they can scare, bully, and kill people. The fact of the matter is women shouldn't have to be questioned why they want to join. The men sexually harassing their fellow troops are the ones we need to question.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Wow. You completely misread/misinterpreted my comment. If that's due to my poor wording, I apologize.

Please don't assume I have no clue how the military works. I do. Very well. I know there are many jobs within the military that are not combat related. I don't think military members are violent thugs who carry around big guns and can't wait to kill people. I know many people join the military because it offers fantastic benefits (e.g., health care, training, education). I'm not questioning why women enlist. So please, get down from your high horse and have a civil discussion.

My point was simply to defend Jerkofthemonth when another commenter jumped all over them. Even with all the things you AND I attest to (see above), you cannot deny that the purpose of a military (not individual members of said military, but a military as a whole) is to demonstrate strength and power to a (potential) enemy and, when necessary, make them submit through violent force rather than diplomacy.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Yes, that's true, not everyone in the military shoots people, but those doctors and dentists, etc, still work for the military, i.e. people who make war. And, like I wrote above, I'm not criticising the people who join and work for the military. I'm questioning the concept of military power.
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itsonreserve
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: But that to me, is saying that because advertisements and speech say something, it must be true even if it isn't, because we are all sheep. For some men, they may feel they need to because of society, but saying they all do is wrong and generalizing, just as it is when you say all women should not want to join because of that reason. Equality is where we all get to have a choice in what we do and why, and not have to be treated differently for making the less popular. To each individual those choices might be good or bad, but each person, no matter their sex, gets to make them. No matter which of the multiple reasons a woman has for joining the military, she should still have the right to do so without being harassed because the institution is "masculine"
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@ArgusRun: While it is appropriate to question my assumption that power/military is patriarchal - thanks for an interesting response - we can't actually say 'said conflicts would exist regardless of who was in charge' because the entire modern (and ancient) world has been created and reigned by patriarchy. We can't say that a gynocracy (Thanks, Mad Men!) wouldn't cause war in the same way, but we can say that patriarchy HAS caused war.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@itsonreserve: 'but that to me, is saying that because advertisements and speech say something, it must be true even if it isn't, because we are all sheep. For some men, they may feel they need to because of society, but saying they all do is wrong and generalizing'

Well this gets into the argument of gender performance, which I did not invent. Judith Butler can explain this much better than I.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@utensil42: Okay so what are we talking about here? Why women want to join the military (which was Jerkofthemonth's question) or people stating the what they consider the main purpose of the military? Also, I always feel the need to state the fact that the Armed Forces are ALWAYS at the heart of most large humanitarian efforts. So there's that too, if we are going to go ahead and generalize what the military's purpose is. Which is as you and Jerkofthemonth say: "to scare, bully, and kill other people into submission."
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@KellyKapowski @ pele tiger:

Thanks for this, guys. I hadn't really considered the utilitarian purposes of women joining the military before. KK that really sucks that you don't enjoy what you are doing, but I'm glad to hear that it's providing you with opportunities.
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KellyKapowski
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: I have a "sounds good on paper" job. When I explain it to others they are like "Wow, thats sounds fun!" when in reality I'm bored all the time. Again though it allows me to take online classes and get all my homework done while I'm here
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Yeah, the militaries of many countries perform humanitarian efforts, which is great, but wouldn't it be greater if the military was solely a humanitarian organisation, rather than designed to promote conflict? If the military was a peace-keeping organisation, I would not criticise it at all, but it is decidedly not.

Oh, and yes, I did get a bit off topic :)
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Edited by JerkoftheMonth at 08/17/09 3:34 PM JerkoftheMonth was starred JerkoftheMonth was unstarred

GirlFailer
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: I can't get into this conversation. Our opinions obviously differ on the purpose, and necessity of our military, which is fine. People don't always agree with each other, right? I'm just going to say I, personally don't think it is a possibility for our military to be a only a humanitarian or peace keeping organization only.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: I couldn't care less who joins the military or why! I'm glad we have people who volunteer to serve in our military. I think we need a military full of strong, smart, willing individuals. If I could, I would personally thank each person who has ever served.

All I tried to do was back up JerkoftheMonth when a specific commenter became testy when JotM stated they believed the military was, first and foremost, a demonstration of strength and power, rather than diplomacy. Regardless of who joins the military or what other purposes they serve, the military's entire reason for being is to demonstrate strength and force. Any one who argues against that is deluding themselves.
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smizmar
08/17/09

@utensil42: Amen! And I say that as a military wife. (My husband was in when we met and after learning more about military practices, I am now emphatically anti-military.) What do these other posters think the origins of any country's military are? And I question why ANYONE - male or female - would choose to join an organization in which, at some level it is considered okay to kill other people. Yeah, yeah, they give out education and (poor quality) health benefits. Basically bribery for lower-income people to fight the government's wars for them. It's a sorry sham all the way around. Sorry to offend anyone (I myself wouldn't take offense on my husband's behalf if someone else pointed this out), but the ultimate goal of any military is to enforce domination.
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itsonreserve
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Yes, but I happen to think that's total bullshit, which is why I'm disagreeing with you. Gender performance is correlation = causation, which does not happen to be true. Some people, but not all, are influenced by what they are told they are supposed to do. Some people but not all naturally fit the predisposed type, and some people but not all are the opposite. This does not include those of us that are sometimes yes and sometimes no. Clearly, a large number of women have joined the military, so they are not performing their gender role. This would be the same for the large number of men who do not join the military, choosing instead to write or work in offices or generally be non-aggressive. Theories like gender performance don't help; we are people not groups. Being groups with traits will just allow outsiders to see said traits and dismiss us to them. But this is a fundamental feminist argument and a little long for the internet, so I shant go on.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Except we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about the American military and the women in it. Why are you trying to change the subject?
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@utensil42: "What else would its purpose be?"

There are lots of reasons for a country to have a military. I'd not in the mood for a seminar, but there are lots of humanitarian jobs in the American military.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@utensil42: So, do armies---in your world--ever serve to defend their countries, or is all black and white?
Oh, and as for 'jumping on' that commenter, I've been in the military seventeen years, good and bad, and I don't have much patience with ignorance.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Why do I sense the phrase 'babykiller, mercenary, and hired killer' somewhere in your future, if you get pissed off? Because I've heard that kind of thing too, too many times before.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@utensil42: Except when they argue that the miiltary's purpose is...what did jerk say? It wasn't strength and force. It was a wee bit more harsh. So you're being kind of disingenuous there.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: Perhaps I should not have defended JotM, as I do feel his/her opinions are stronger than mine. If you look at the original comment JotM simply stated that militaries are used to prove force, not diplomacy, and used to "scare, bully, and kill other people into submission." You are the one who conflated those comments with calling the military "stupid, violent, murderous, and so forth" when it is not necessarily what JotM said.

Of course armies serve to defend their countries, but isn't that just another example of showing force and strength, and forcing submission through violence? Does it matter if it's in the offense or defense if the outcome is the same?

I'm sorry you feel I'm "ignorant" and need a seminar. All I did was state the fact that militaries are, first and foremost, about force and domination. For all the good that our military can and does do, that does not negate it's primary purpose. And I'm not arguing against having a military. As I said upthread, we need a strong military. I just don't understand why so many people on this thread took offense at me saying a military's first purpose is to fight.
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Edited by utensil42 at 08/17/09 4:33 PM utensil42 was starred utensil42 was unstarred

lippybug
08/17/09

@smizmar: I agree. I hate that there are so many people willing to say, "yes, I will kill for government, and not ask questions about it, but will just follow commands." Because if we didn't have people willing to just follow orders there is no f'ing way we would have gone to Iraq and did the terrible things we did there. But the jobs angle is, in fact, "bribery of poor people" to get them to kill, regardless of whether the killings are justified or not. The flipside, of course, is that the voting public should be able to contain the power of the elected officials to indiscriminately unleash these bribed killers and we, the voting public, have failed to do our job.
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Edited by lippybug at 08/17/09 5:00 PM lippybug was starred lippybug was unstarred

smizmar
08/17/09

@lippybug: Thank you. "Bribed killers;" that's a perfect way to phrase it. I agree that we have failed to do our job, and that includes shooting down - ahem - the notion that being in the military is some sort of holy calling. It's just as you said: bribery; hanging a lure over those in poverty in order to get them to kill at the government's will.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@smizmar: Edited to remove hasty comments....
Hanging a lure over those in poverty? Bribed killers at the government will? I think I've got your tin foil hat, you must have dropped in your haste to disrespect servicemen and women from your fucking couch.
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Edited by GirlFailer at 08/17/09 8:31 PM GirlFailer was starred GirlFailer was unstarred

GirlFailer
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Also re-read the article above, I'm pretty sure it wasn't meant to be taken as a platform for you to spew your own brand of crazy opinions. It's about women in the military and sexual harassment. If you feel the military and it's members are so awful maybe you should write a heartfelt letter to the president and various congressmen.
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smizmar
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Look, I stated already: I know many people in the military. I also know there are tons and tons of gang members in the military who don't give a fuck about the country. I'm a military wife, for christsakes! Stating the truth isn't being disrepectful. My husband is pro-military (after all, it's his career) and even he admits that he doesn't give a shit about glory and honor. He's in it for his own career. And he says there's tons of people who thought this was the best way to earn money/go to school/get benefits. Period. How is that being disrepectful? I didn't join the military because I had no other direction in my life. Jesus, it's people like you who give the word "patriotic" a bad name. It's like either you worship the military or you're some kind of commie, right?
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smizmar
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: To your second bitter post, my comments were right on-topic with this particular thread, which questioned motives for joining the military. And no, I don't think everyone in the military is "awful;" my husband and other family members are part of that group. It's like you didn't consider my actual post at all; this seems like a typical knee-jerk reaction to someone - gasp! - questioning the platitudes that induce so many people to join an organization that routinely kills other human beings. That's all. I question other countries' military practices as well, so I'm definitely not picking on the U.S.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: You have way too many assumptions about me. Babykiller, mercenary, and hired killer?? What? I don't even know why I would say those things. The reason I got into the question of a purpose of a military is because there were disagreements over the concept of military power and a female's place in it.

I respect people in the military for willing to die for their country. I would not do that. I would not die for an abstract concept like 'nation', but I respect those who do - ESPECIALLY women. I would also not kill for an abstract concept like nation. That is how I feel. I don't know why you are taking this so personally and why you can't have a civil discussion.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@itsonreserve: I don't know how much experience you have with feminist theory - mine is limited - but I feel that your understanding of gender performance may be slightly oversimplified, but this is a debate for another day, another post.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@smizmar: Gosh, you know people in the military? You totally understand it then. I was taking -verbatim- your words and repeating them. Think about what you say (or type anonymously) before you say it. You said "It's just as you said: bribery; hanging a lure over those in poverty in order to get them to kill at the government's will."
"My DH has been in the military for 9 years and has never met anyone who was in for any other reason than: a) they couldn't think of any other way to make money with benefits, or b) they were in trouble and saw no other way out. "

Well, gee, Your "DH" is in it for his career? Garsh, you don't think there are thousands upon thousands of men and women who are in the military for reasons beyond poverty and "law reasons"? Your husband isn't the minority, honey, he's the majority. Get the fuck over it. He ain't special. I don't think you are a commie, I think you are ignorant and make comments about the military when you have very little understanding of other members besides your husband and his pals. Yeah, the others didn't join for the "honor, or the the glory" either. So STFU and sit down. Also, REALLY? Gang members? My stars and garters. I sure hope you NEVER are given the opportunity to give people a second chance... Oh wait, that's kind of what you insinuated you did for a living. Fuck. Also, I served in the military and met many men and women who had committed crimes in their past, and you know what? They still served honorably.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@smizmar: Also, can you tell me why your husband and other family members joined? If it wasn't for their terrible poverty and run ins with the law that is. You are contradicting yourself. If you don't think everyone in the military is awful what are you complaining about?
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@utensil42: Because some of them, like me, are actually IN the military, and people like you think we're just murderers and killers? Could that be it, perhaps?
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@smizmar: Oh, God, a military wife. All the expertise with none of the discipline---to hear them talk.

And Utensils: Regardless of who joins the military or what other purposes they serve, the military's entire reason for being is to demonstrate strength and force. Any one who argues against that is deluding themselves.

Thanks for that black-and-white thing again! So...yeah, there's not a lot to argue about as long as you insist on that.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Thanks! Jeez, methinks I hear the siren call of privilege on the air, which po' white trash like me don't get to hear. I guess smizmar has either a better perch or hears different things.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@smizmar: Oh, I think I've got a bingo! You're a military wife! That means you know more than....genuine military members? And the military is obvs. just like everybody else in the military.

Nobody's saying you have to worship the military. But, Christ, why not just call all of us grunts baby-raping murderers and get it over with?
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: Well, you know Ginmar, it is hard to resist a soldier, even if they are poor gang members they sure do look good in uniform. *whispers* I heard after you marry 'em they double in value! Plus you take on their rank as they move up. It's win-win!
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utensil42
08/17/09

@Ginmar Rienne: I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE ALL JUST MURDERERS AND KILLERS! I never said any such thing. You and GirlFailer have been putting words into my mouth through this entire thing and have been deliberately misconstruing what I say. Is the military necessary? Yes. Does the military do wonderful humanitarian things? Yes. Am I grateful to you and all service members? Yes. Is the military primarily designed to defend its country through the use of violent force? Yes. Why is that hard for people to understand without taking offense and thinking I hate you all?!
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smizmar
08/18/09

@Ginmar Rienne: Actually, I'm in law enforcement as well as a military wife, so I know plenty about discipline. How do you complain about generalizations when you are so eager to make them yourself? And it's ridiculous to assume that ONLY people in the military know anything about discipline.
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smizmar
08/18/09

@GirlFailer: Of course there are people who have committed past crimes who have gotten past that. That's common sense. But what I'm saying is that there are members of the military who are CURRENTLY gang members; who sew red cloth inside the pockets of their uniforms and turn them inside out when they are not on base.
Look, I'm not sure why you're so defensive...all I'm saying is that members of the military are no better and no worse than anyone else. The only difference between them and me is that I wouldn't kill anyone for any amount of money or benefits. End of story.
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GirlFailer
08/18/09

@smizmar: Go re-read your comments. If you were saying that members in the military were no different than civilians, you did a shitty job. You implied that servicepeople are second class citizens. Here's a list of comments you made:

"Basically bribery for lower-income people to fight the government's wars for them.

I also know there are tons and tons of gang members in the military who don't give a fuck about the country.

My DH has been in the military for 9 years and has never met anyone who was in for any other reason than: a) they couldn't think of any other way to make money with benefits, or b) they were in trouble and saw no other way out.

I work in law enforcement and know of many cases of gang members joining the military either because they were sentenced to or because they want to get free weapons training.

and again... Basically bribery for lower-income people to fight the government's wars for them. "

So, really, think about what you say before making sweeping generalizations about the armed forces. You implied nothing but negative stereotypes about servicemembers. You can't back pedal and make it sound like I'm the bitch who jumps on people for stating that everyone in the military are "no better or no worse" than civilians. In fact that's the opposite of what your comments indicated. You made it sound like servicemembers are second rate cast outs from society who have no other option than to go kill people. So please, don't get preachy with me, because you know not what you speak of. Being in Law Enforcement and having a husband in the military makes you an expert not.
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smizmar
08/18/09

@GirlFailer: I write the same things over and over because you're purposely not understanding me. There are good and bad people inside the military and out. I blame governments first and foremost for getting people to go out and kill in the name of some glorified platitudes about honor and patriotism. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING. Now, of course, some people buy into this; others join because they need to finanacially or whatever. Still others choose not to because they can't reconcile the idea of working for an organization that has no problem with slaughtering others. I'm not saying that the people who join are horrible people; I'm saying that either they buy what the government's selling them, or they're doing what's best for their own lives and the violence part doesn't keep them from sleeping at night. That doesn't necessarily make them bad either; it's just something that I couldn't do in good conscienceness. Get it?

I understand that you don't like what I'm saying, but it's all about looking at things from a different perspective. All I can say is, be glad you weren't around liberals in the 1960's: there was a hell of a lot more protest about the military and you would not have been pleased.
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GirlFailer
08/18/09

@smizmar: So... Your husband is one of the ones that is able to reconcile the idea of working for an organization that slaughters others? Okay. *Yawn* If you really feel that's what the military is all about that's fine. Ignorance is bliss after all. Also, I have no problem with protesting wars, that's a right we all have. I do, however, have a problem with people contradicting themselves and making useless statements regarding military members (not even the military as government institution, because honestly I could give a fuck less) when you have never even been in the military.
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smizmar
08/18/09

@GirlFailer: If you discount anyone who ever has an informed opinion about anything, then you disregard a lot of opinions just because they don't match your own. Sadly, we live in a culture now where even doctors are put down when they voice an educated analysis. What you're saying is that no one has a valid statement to make about anything unless a, b, and c consisting of your own determinations of validity. And that in itself is blissfully ignorant. I guess I've had members of every generation of my family in wars dating back to the Revolutionary War (I'm a genealogy buff), but of course I don't know anything about the military because you think I'm just talking about my husband's "pals," right? That doesn't change the fact that the underlying mission of the military is control through force. And the fact that you won't even consider the military as a government institution belies your stubborn ignorance of the above fact.
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GirlFailer
08/18/09

@smizmar: I'll type it slowly. I really don't care what you think the underlying mission of the military is.This isn't about that any more. We can agree to disagree on that stance. I DO care how you generalized and stereotyped servicemembers. End of story. I don't care if you think the military's sole purpose is death and destruction, I care that you made rude and ignorant comments about the people that serve in it. Read your comments again. Count how many stereotypes and generalizations you made about servicemembers. If you can't see them it may expose your own stubborn ignorance. You have no reason to argue that I can't accept another person's opinion on the purpose of military, you are wrong. I simply don't care what your opinion is. Once again, I care that you broadcasted on a public forum that military members are poor or criminals and we are bribed killers. That is why I am arguing with you. Because those were the most disgusting statements you could make to someone who served in the military, and frankly you have no right to make those kind of assumptions. End of story. So to recap... Don't care what you think the purpose of the military is, Do care that you feel the need to bash servicemembers on a public forum. I really want you to understand that.
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smizmar
08/18/09

@GirlFailer: But making the observation that some servicepeople join because they see it as the best way to make money for themselves personally isn't degrading them. You are taking offense to something that really isn't all that offensive. I never said that anyone was poor (speaking of ignorance). There's a difference between being poor and being perhaps lower middle-class and needing money because your parents can't (or won't) help you out, or maybe just because you need to escape your house/your town. I can name dozens of California towns in which the young make just that decision. And speaking the truth - which is that yes, there are some gang members in the military (research it) - is not saying that everyone is a criminal. That's patently ridiculous and you're crying over something that was never said.

It's actually very similar to my line of work. Do I hear stories of bad people in law enforcement every day? Yes! Do I cry and bemoan the assumption that people hate law enforcement because they bother to point it out? No! Because there are cops who commit criminal offenses and there are (many) cops who are in it for the money and not some higher purpose. But I'm not gonna cry about cop-bashing for that very fact.

You keep bringing up the phrase "bribed killers." I think another poster actually brought it up first, and I merely echoed him/her because I had not thought about it that way before. But in a way, it's true. Soldiers get paid to kill other people. It's their line of work. I'm sorry if you think it's not polite to point it out but, hey, there's just no pretty way to put it.
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GirlFailer
08/18/09

@smizmar: " I never said that anyone was poor (speaking of ignorance)."
Okay, here was your comment. You didn't say poor you said those in poverty, which is the same damn thing last time I checked. Here's you comment:

"hanging a lure over those in poverty in order to get them to kill at the government's will."

If you are fine with people bashing cops, and you are one that's fine, it just happens I have a better sense of camaraderie than you. I'm all done with this because frankly, you are annoying me with your back and forth. Yes, you did generalize a larger group of people in your comments. As a matter of fact, once again here it is:

My DH has been in the military for 9 years and has never met anyone who was in for any other reason than: a) they couldn't think of any other way to make money with benefits, or b) they were in trouble and saw no other way out.

Do you remember that comment now? You simply stated that you think that every person joined the military for one of those two reasons above. You've contradicted yourself, and ran around in a circle this whole conversation and I'm done.
By the way, thanks for your service as a law enforcement officer. It's a difficult job to think you might have to kill someone to protect your city or self, huh? Cough, cough. As a matter of fact I think that police officers are hired killers. After all, they may have to shoot and kill someone in a a very specific situation. Cops are basically hired killers. Sound familiar?
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morninggloria
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
Bitch, slut, and dyke are a little constraining for me. If I were in the military, I'm sure that my unit would know me as a dykey slutbitch.
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@morninggloria: And Mrs dykey slutbitch, when you're married.
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morninggloria
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: If I went by "Ms" I'd have to add a second "dykey."
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squinko
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
I don't understand how the military can use the excuse about straight male soldiers' ability to perform their duties properly will decline because they'll be too worried about gay fellow soldiers hitting on them, harassing them, etc. to keep gays out of the military, but then turn a blind eye to female soldiers who use that same argument when they talk about being sexually harassed/assaulted or raped and the lack of response from the higher ups. Why is it a valid point when it keeps out THE GAYS, but can be ignored when it's part of a larger, more serious issue that is actually happening?
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Penny
08/17/09

@squinko: Wow, I hadn't even thought about it enough to draw this line. Amazing.
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

@squinko: Because it is a woman's natural destiny to have a penis (and eventually a fetus) in her whether she wants it or not. Boys will be boys, ya know. But faggots corrupting our all-American boys and coaxing them into a life of sodomy with their big city razzle-dazzle? Damnit, that would tear the fabric of society.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@squinko: BEcause the guys that go the farthest up the chain rock the fewest boats. They're more conservative, for the most part, and the military trends conservative at the best of times. Gays and women are things that are defined by their sexual uses---to straight men, that is---so straight guys see gay men as a threat and women as prey.

The fear of sexual assault from gays is an unknowing admission that men do really horrible things to women in the military, because nobody who's innocent of it would have such a morbid and perverse fear of it.
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Valkyrie607
08/17/09

@squinko: Because straight male homophobia is really about straight men fearing that they will receive from gay men the same treatment they give to women.
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AvantGardenia
08/17/09

@Valkyrie607: NAILED! I remember back when the Clinton Admin tried to repeal the ban on gays in the military, pre- DADT, and all these newspaper articles quoting male soldiers saying things like "what if some guy hangs up a picture of a naked guy in the lockerroom" or "what if some guy in my battalion grabs my ass" or "I don't want some guy staring at me like I'm a piece of meat" and my reaction was, Listen to this tiny violin, motherfuckers, I've been a woman my whole life.
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JerseyGrrrl
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
Seems to me like the hysteria over women becoming pregnant once deployed (or prior to) is similar to the doomsayers who wax on about women using abortion as birth control. What, this happened to THREE women out of thousands and there are people trying to use that as a reason to keep women from jobs they can do??

Anti-womanists (is that a word? I'm making it one!) always seem to latch on to one or two cases of something and create a mythology surrounding it so that people who previously had no opinion now imagine women in uniform running around trying to trap that precious, precious sperm in the deserts of Iraq. I bet those brave women are just trying to stay alive, like everyone else.
Of course, a great step would be making BC and emergency contraception easily available at every outpost, but that's too pragmatic right?
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librariesare4lovers
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
Did anybody else here watch Generation Kill on HBO? The scene where all of the guys are shouting the gross obscene BS at a female marine? The military is such a microcosm and there is a hierarchy that exists there and women are bar none at the bottom. The dynamic there is only exacerbated by the fact that soldiers are groomed to be at their most testosterone driven extreme. It basically creates an environment that shuts women out. I'm all for a military cultural overall here but the idea of it just seems so daunting...
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Harlot Brontë
08/17/09

@librariesare4lovers: I'm so glad you brought this up. That was such a striking moment in GK, wasn't it? You have these guys who, despite their disgusting adolescent posturing and filthy-minded hazing, are generally decent human beings trying to do their best. Their training enhances and encourages some really aggressive tendencies that are useful - even essential - in combat. But those same tendencies create and enable a kind of psychological coarsening and cruelty that is genuinely disturbing in non-combat situations.

It's as if the rigid hierarchy of the military codifies the acceptable paths of abuse. And even if the sexual harassment and/or rape of female soldiers is legally forbidden, the de facto reality is that all kinds of shameful and repulsive behaviour is allowed to pass simply because that's how military institutions have always operated. We're fighting against centuries of unofficial tradition and tacit acceptance of all manner of sexism, racism, classism and any other 'ism' you care to mention.

I think the key is awareness and steadfast engagement with the issues. In his amazing book, Generation Kill's Lt. Nate Fick (who went to Dartmouth and Harvard, and was a keynote speaker at the Democratic National Convention in Denver in 2008) talked movingly of the crucial need for liberals to keep engaging and joining the military. We can't leave it to conservatives to shape the military from the inside out; we have a right and responsibility to change it ourselves.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
You know what pisses me the fuck off about the whole "women get knocked up to get out of deployments" shit? The fact that JUST AS MANY men fake mental problems to get out of deployments. It's all about the women though. Not about the men who are not able to get pregnant to avoid a deployment, so suddenly they have knee injury, or they suddenly develop a mental illness weeks before a deployment that was never a problem before. Some people are not capable of dealing with the fact that they will be shipped off to a war zone so they find ways to get out of it. Men and women. Funny how we don't here about the throngs of men who avoid their deployments, just the women who get pregnant. Motherfucker son of a bitch this shit burns my ass.
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morninggloria
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Plus, it's not like, being a woman, you can just one day DECIDE to get pregnant. You can decide to have unprotected sex, but that's not a guarantee that you're going to end up with child. Couples who are actively trying to conceive often need a few months before it actually works.
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spamanda
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: It's a little too "she got pregnant ON PURPOSE" for me. I have no idea what the access to birth control is like over there, but even in the best of conditions we don't always use it. I have so many friends who've had unexpected/unplanned pregnancies, myself included. Do we really think that all women are doing this to get out of their job?
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@spamanda: Things are different over there now, so I have no clue how readily BC is available. The sad thing is most units aren't even discussing it. It's almost like they expect NO SEX to happen on the deployments. Which, okay, definitely wasn't possible back in 2001-2002, but now they have nicer amenities, and you aren't always on the move. People are going to fuck. I have a feeling many of these pregnancies are occurring do to mistakes with birth control (because taking it may not be the first thing on your mind over there) or not enough condoms, things like that. If you are being discouraged to have sex, you aren't going to pop in the sick bay to pick some condoms up. At least many people won't.

But no, it's just us scaredy girls who have to get away from the war. We'd rather face shame and harassment from our units when we get home. Totally.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
According to the female soldiers I've talked to, military sexual harassment is doubly shitty because it's something like incest. You try SO hard to be part of this team, to pull your weight, and you have to work twice as hard because you're "just a girl." You would give your life for these people, and you have to rely on them having your back. You HAVE to trust your fellow soldiers, it's a matter of life or death. Talk about risk.
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JerseyGrrrl
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: That's kind of what jumped out to me: This terrible situation of needing to fear what's inside the fort as much as what's outside. Of not being able to trust those whom you HAVE to be able to trust. And that lack of trust must affect everyone, even the men whose behavior incites it.
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
"You're a bitch, a slut or a dyke - or you're married, but even if you're married, you're still probably one of the three."

This mindset is certainly not limited to war zones.

These women are on the front lines in every sense of the word. They are dealing on a more concentrated level with something that women EVERYWHERE are dealing with. But I think this battle must be fought in reverse, with tactical strikes on policy on the homefront, outside of war zones. If we improve the way we deal with sexual assault and harassment in the society at large, we'll improve things for our ladies in uniform.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@LaComtesse: Kind of reminds me of the mindset of Sodini, et al.
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

@utensil42: At first I thought you were referring to MY views and I was horrified. Ha! Yeah, but definitely, the idea that women aren't people but TYPES is absolutely in that same mindframe.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@LaComtesse: My recruiter said those exact words to me. "You'll be a bitch, slut or dyke. You should probably start putting your bitch face on." This was a woman.
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: Wow. That's really powerful and sad.
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dichotomy
08/17/09

@LaComtesse: Is this like Margaret Cho's theory of the sweet one, the smart one, and the ho?
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LaComtesse
08/17/09

@dichotomy: Precisely.
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Penny
08/17/09

In reply to If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?
To be sure, not all women in the military embrace the idea of going into combat.

I would argue that most people, men and women, do not "embrace" the idea of going into combat. Men have simply been conditioned to feel like less of a man if they try to avoid it. Women do not have to deal with this particular pressure as much.

Then, of course, there are the aggressive personalities who want to "fight" but I like to think they are few and far between. I think most people these days go into the military because they have to.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@Penny: I totally disagree with you. My job is to work with veterans of Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. My closest coworker is a former Army captain and West Point grad, he would have had aneurysm to hear you say that. Most of them go into the military because of a sense of duty and higher purpose. There are a few that had no other choice, but the overwhelming majority feel called to volunteer to serve their country. And for the most part, those that sign up are ready for combat. It's their job, and they wouldn't ask for anything less.
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utensil42
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: Might there be a distinction between a West Point grad's sense of duty and a working class kid's sense of "I need to go to college somehow" or "this is the only job I can get right now"?

Also, I think it's one thing to say that they're ready for combat and see service as their duty, and another thing to say they've "embraced" combat.
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Rare Affinity
08/17/09

@Penny:
At the time of the Falklands and Gulf Wars, there was panic amongst some in the Territorial Army , (part-time volunteer reserves) who had never considered that they might one day actually be sent to a combat arena.
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Penny
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: I'm sorry, that wasn't meant to be disrespectful in any way. I am not involved in the military and have no experience, so it's just my outsiders observation.

While I do believe that those in the military are committed, it's their job after all, I do feel like there are less joining out of a sense of duty these days compared to the first two world wars, for example.

In any case, i didn't mean to make a sweeping generalization...
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@utensil42: No, I don't see a distinction and have not observed one among the hundreds officers AND enlisted people I have known. People are proud to be in the military, as they should be.

You'd be surprised how many soldiers/Marines/airmen/sailors are not just "ready" for combat, resist being medevaced out, who are ready to leave their families to return, and who are dying to get back after an amputation or severe injury. This is their job. They embrace it.
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Perhaps Not
08/17/09

@Penny: Maybe, but I had a friend in college who was a Marine and he couldn't wait to go into combat. "Why the hell would you want to do that?" I asked him. "Well, we spend all this time training and learning and getting tough and turning into this fighting machine," he said. "I want to see if I work."

I would say, though, that almost no one wants to go back into combat.
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Penny
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: I'm surprised by this. I believe there is a difference between embracing and wanting to do the best at one's job, and embracing war and combat. Don't you?
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KellyKapowski
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: As a service member currently at my job I have to say the majority of military members I know consider this a job, not their life. I come to work when I'm scheduled and do my job, then I go home. Yes, my job may include traveling and fighting for our country, but overall the majority of Acitve Duty members I know embrace deployments. If they do look forward to deploying its for the money and not the sense of duty. There is a minority that are gung-ho military.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: As someone who has experience with deployments, I can tell you that it is a difficult thing to reconcile. It's a lot easier after the deployment is over and you are back home to say to yourself that you were fine with it, and it was an honor and your job. My husband and I had a really difficult talk one day when we realized that yeah, now we can say that we were proud to serve and do our duty or whatever, but when that plane (or boat, whatever) touches a war zone it is truly intimidating. It's not something easily embraced when you are faced with it full on. I think many people talk the talk after they come home, but Penny is sort of right it's against human nature to put yourself in harm's way like that.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@Penny: Well, when war IS your job . . . It's not always easy to sort out the ideology if someone's firing an RPG at you or your best friend. Most of them are in Iraq and Afghanistan believing that they are doing the right thing in defending their country, and if war is the way to do that, it's not always easy to compartmentalize.

There are also people who just live for combat.
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librariesare4lovers
08/17/09

@Penny: You have to realize that they solders are trained to fight. They have it drilled into them that it's their purpose. I once new a kid who was attending a military college and said and said that "now being able to fight is like training all year for football and having to ride the bench all season." I mean the kid was comparing -FOOTBALL to COMBAT. But that was his mind set. I have cousins and in laws that were marines that actually had to be talked out of rejoining after 9/11. It's that duty edict that gets drilled into you ya know?
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JerkoftheMonth
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: I think that 'duty and higher purpose' might fall under Penny's heading of 'because they have to' in order to fulfill the expectations society places on being a man.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@GirlFailer: I think "intimidating" has to be a serious understatement there. Obviously you would know better than me, but the sense that I got from the comment was that soldiers either did not want to deploy or were hulked-out rageaholics. I don't think she meant that at all, and I have to admit I have a hair trigger when it comes to defending soldiers. I will take a deep breath now. (Sorry, Penny.)
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Penny
08/17/09

@librariesare4lovers: Oh, yes, I understand. But, if we're getting into the nuances of personalities and gender roles, I think these discussions become more complicated. When I said I think most people feel they "have" to join, I didn't necessarily mean they were stoked to fight, or needed money for college--some have a long family history of combat, some were inspired by events (to your point, 9-11) in which their patriotism was stoked.

Yeah, it's a job. But, if you're a secretary you may hate....say, typing, but you do it because it's your job. On the flip side, I don't believe most people join the service to fight, but out of some sense of purpose. What I wonder is, where does that sense of purpose come from?

Now I am trailing off into tangents.....

Basically, it's different for men and women.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@JerkoftheMonth: Women are also capable of a sense of duty and higher purpose, and if anything have to try twice as hard to prove it.
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Penny
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: No, I totally understand, my initial comment was reductive and not nuanced--and I appreciate your response.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@Penny: Okay, I must have misunderstood you, because that's a lot closer to what I understand to be the motivation behind most people to join the military. But I've still found that there's not much difference in the motivation for men versus that of women.
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Penny
08/17/09

@Yahtzii: I would agree that there's not much difference in their motivations to join, I was talking more about how they deal with and navigate the very unique military culture.
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Yahtzii
08/17/09

@Penny: Gotcha. I am blinded by a red, white, and blue fog loyalty when it comes to the military and I am liable to misread.
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librariesare4lovers
08/17/09

@Penny: I was speaking more to this part of what you wrote:
"I would argue that most people, men and women, do not "embrace" the idea of going into combat" But as to why people JOIN the military I think you do have people who fell they "have" to join for whatever reason but the people I know joined b/c they thought they were going to get drafted so just preemptively joined, they wanted to fly fighter jets and b/c they were a troubled kid who just wanted to get the as far away from home as possible. The last one refers to an in-law of mine who was a combat marine in the first golf war- if you've ever seen Jarhead he was in the same (idk the military term) unit? as those guys. He said they called themselves Uncle Sams Lost Boys cuz they were all basically in the same boat as him. 18 and wanting to run away.
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GirlFailer
08/17/09

@librariesare4lovers: Uncle Sam's Misguided Children: USMC. I haven't heard that in a while.
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smizmar
08/17/09

@Penny: My DH has been in the military for 9 years and has never met anyone who was in for any other reason than: a) they couldn't think of any other way to make money with benefits, or b) they were in trouble and saw no other way out. My DH included.

I work in law enforcement and know of many cases of gang members joining the military either because they were sentenced to or because they want to get free weapons training. No joke. I always chuckle a little inside when people talk about how honorable our young men and women of the military are and how we should all worship them, blah blah blah. So I totally get what you're saying.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@utensil42: Depends on how shitty your opinion is of service members. What you and Jerk don't seem to have any ability to grasp is the way the military gives you self-respect for the first time in your life. And also, that the military gives you great power and tells you that using it is a matter of grave importance and regard.

Oh, wait, no, we're just po', ig'nant trash. Sorry about that.
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Ginmar Rienne
08/17/09

@smizmar: Yeah, because anecdota from some anonymous person with a HUGE hateful axe to grind on the Internet is so totally reliable.

Your hubbie doesn't get out much.
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utensil42
08/18/09

@Ginmar Rienne: I PM'ed you. FYI. Also, I do not think you are "po', ig'nant trash" but, thanks for assuming the worst of me without having a clue what I actually think.
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Edited by utensil42 at 08/18/09 12:53 AM utensil42 was starred utensil42 was unstarred

Ginmar Rienne
08/18/09

@utensil42: Save your breath. You have your opinion and you haven't shown any respect for service, or honor, or any concept of the military that differs from yours.
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GirlFailer
11/05/08

In reply to Lionesses: Female Soldiers Are Seeing Combat
"As a result, more female soldiers than ever before have ended up in combat, often without adequate training"

The training that females are getting is the same training their male counterparts are. Most of the time units that are deploying together, go through the pre-deployment training together. It's not just the women who are unprepared for combat, it's everyone. It's frustrating to hear people saying that WOMEN are unprepared. No one is prepared for that shit.
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MagentaOpel
11/05/08

In reply to Lionesses: Female Soldiers Are Seeing Combat
Why are women prohibited from direct combat? I would never in a million years want to be a front line soldier, but should a solider be prohibited from that because she has a vag? This seems like an accepted form of discrimination and it bothers me that a woman would be prevented from doing something she wants because of gender
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Jeremy
11/05/08

@MagentaOpel: The military is filled with ridiculous rules. Apparently it's like, a jailable, seriously punishable offense to commit adultery in the military. You also can't be friends with people higher up the food chain, even while on leave.

It's just...just...surreal. Though I suppose when you're asking a bunch of teenagers to go kill other teenagers who they've never met, you deal in the surreal.
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ShadowWylde
11/05/08

@MagentaOpel: yes, it is a form of discrimination. this country still puts women on the pedestal of being fragile and needing to be protected.

in israel there are women in their combat forces.
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PeteRR
11/05/08

@MagentaOpel:

The only valid reason that comes to mind is physical, upper body strength. Leg infantry hump 80+ lbs packs on a regular basis.
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Jeremy
11/05/08

@ShadowWylde: And they don't get equal billing there, either. While they can end up on the front lines, it's not common.
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GirlFailer
11/05/08

@PeteRR: I am not attacking you here, but I just wanted to say that that isn't really a valid reason. I knew male Marines who could not hump 80+ lbs. Those males weren't serving in an infantry MOS. I think if a woman can hump her 80+ lbs, WTF shouldn't she be able to serve in an infantry MOS?
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Adah
11/06/08

@MagentaOpel: The chemistry of an infantry unit (or an armored unit, etc.) is a strange, delicate thing. I'm not automatically opposed to women in combat, but I think it's worth thinking long and hard about integrating women into front lines positions, which are often with a small group of aggressive young men, in remote locations. The range of issues is enormous - from increased hygeine needs (You want to go six weeks without a shower, and possibly have two periods during that time?) to the physical ability of a woman to climb to those locations with the amount of required equipment. Then there is the psychological impact on the rest of the unit - from how they will react should the woman be injured, to how they will react if she flirts with them or she rejects their flirtations, to what happens if she should enter a relationship with a member of the small unit, and then that relationship ended. What would she do if she got raped, and there were no close, safe options to turn to? After a couple of months, these issues would start to pile up.

Again, I'm not automatically against women in combat, and the vast majority of men in these units would probably treat the woman with the respect she deserved, as long as she could keep up (the same as they do to men, who get mocked mercilessly if they fall out). But not all men in these units are decent; some are immature, aggresive and not very bright teenagers, who are also much stronger physically than the

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If Women Can Deal With Combat, Why Can't The Military Deal With Sexual Harassment?

Lionesses: Female Soldiers Are Seeing Combat