@Beat Girl (formerly Miss Carrie Nation): Most of the feminists on here were a-ok with an Iranian court allowing a woman to drop acid into the eyes of a man in retribution. I mean, Iran courts are known for their fair and humane punishments...
It is really disheartening to see some of the reactions, but even though it's Jezebel, it's the internet, so I'm not exactly shocked to see the worst in people come out.
There is no way to make this psychotic rapist a-hole get what he deserves without us being inhumane, so I wish I could leave that to the rest of the natural world.
I just hope he gets a case of flesh-eating bacteria, his dick gets all necrotic, and anesthetics and painkillers fail to work. I hope that he gets "locked in" his own brain, never to escape the pain of the lesions and his own deranged thoughts.
I totally applaud a justice system that truly aims to rehabilitate rather than just punish (and can see how bonding with animals could lead to compassion for people), but...Jesus.
@MissFiFi: But regular old run of the mill rape and murder doesn't? Just because we're desensitised doesn't make those attacks less horrific and terrifying.
@pandorasmittens: Thank you. I felt alone in my bewilderment, again.
Perhaps I should just walk from these threads, but I find it honestly so very disheartening to see people veering from my definition of reasonable reactions so wildly.
@SarahMC: The way I see it, everyone is good and bad in varying measures, mental illness or not. The word evil suggests that someone is 100% bad, and irredeemably so. I don't believe a Good vs Evil dichotomy exists within humanity, rather within humans as individuals.
No one wants to admit that there are probably some 'good' traits within Fritzl, but it's virtually undeniable in my book. No one is born evil.
@pandorasmittens: HE is not evil, but his actions certainly were. I think it is important not to absolve him of responsibility by pointing out he is mentally ill.
@opalmarie: But that's not what people are saying. His actions are inhuman, but he is still a human being, and a complete buffet of mental diagnoses.
@SarahMC: A comment such as "He is evil and should rot in a hole" suggests that an individual is completely evil. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "good" or "bad" person, only individual people. And people sometimes make deplorable or "evil" actions, and many times, the most deplorable of actions are perpetrated by individuals with a history of mental illness. That does not mean they are Satan, and vilifying someone to that point does the justice system a massive disservice.
Even individuals who commit the most heinous crimes have people who care about them, and people they care about. It's a tough pill to swallow, but the reality exists nonetheless.
@opalmarie: No one is absolving him by saying it. Even mentally ill criminals get locked up.
What admitting his illness does allow is a discourse that means we can learn from his actions. As I said above, Fritzl is an extreme case study. Anything that can be learned from him, his life and his mental state can be used to prevent things of this nature recurring.
@pandorasmittens: Just out of curiosity (and I'm not pretending like I could diagnose someone when a. I'm not a doctor and b. I've never met this man) but do you consider sociopaths to have a form of mental illness? I don't.
Antisocial personality disorder is in the DSM, and sociopathy is generally considered to be the same thing as ASPD. So yes, it is considered a mental illness by medical professionals. However, many criminals do have ASPD, and no one is saying it excuses them from criminal behavior. So just because someone might consider sociopathy to be a mental illness, and might have compassion for the person, yet not for the crimes, does not mean they don't think they shouldn't be isolated so that the community is safe. There is a big difference between punishing someone in a retributive manner, and punishing someone so as to isolate them from society to protect it.
When you are dealing with someone who has a mental illness (and I don't know what Fritzl's is), it is pretty barbaric to punish them in a retributive, throw his evil ass into a whole to rot manner, and a lot more palatable to simply isolate him from society so he can't re-offend. Don't forget, even if Fritzl was charged with these crimes at 40, he could be held indefinitely until he was deemed "rehabilitated." It's not necessarily a policy that will always be "fairer" to those with mental illness, since they can and do sometimes find themselves locked up for longer than a sane person would have been had he or she committed the same crime.
@pandorasmittens: after reading this whole thread, I must concur more so with LovelyHue in that:
"There's a biological and environmental factor that leads to how every one of us behaves, all the time. I do believe that mental illness exists. However, I also believe that incredibly ordinary people are capable of incredible cruelty."
After following this case since it emerged, I must say that I am highly disappointed in his punishment- OF COURSE, all mentally ill people aren't inherently evil, and if it could be determined (which I don't think enough time was spent on cross examination or psycho analysis of him to have possibly determined this) that he was severely mentally ill, he should definitely not be punished barbarically.
However, I am of the opinion that there are certain crimes that one could commit that one just can't simply be rehabilitated from(see clockwork orange), especially if one is found to be of sound mind, and acting only on selfish desire to indulge one's own capacity for incredible cruelty(this condition I personally do not think should be classified as a mental illness that one puts one into that "excusable" territory)- rape in general, (and of one's own daughter, none the less- AND FOR 24 YEARS NONE THE LESS) is one of them.
That being said, I cannot stomach the idea of punishing him in a manner "more palatable to simply isolate him from society so he can't re-offend" -it seems bizarre, considering palatable is nowhere in my vocabulary when I consider how his daughter must have felt all those years, now, and probably will for the rest of her life.
Although it won't ever happen, I would have no problem living in a world where offenses such as his were punished more barbarically. (and let's not split hairs here- no I'm not saying ay ole thing should get your dick chopped off- just things specifically having to do with heinous crimes on a large scale- and yes I know that's sort of relative to whom-ever deems things heinous and large scale) I think that more horrific punishment might just prove to be a deterrent to those who find themselves capable of such crimes, be they simply capable of great cruelty. And if believing that make me, therefore, cruel, or seemingly mentally ill myself, then I am perfectly OK with that.
@Shannon: Some are and some aren't. The difference is if the person chooses to ignore the norms of right and wrong or if they have a mental illness that doesn't allow them to understand those norms. As someone with a mental illness I can tell you that illnesses of this kind can severely effect ones ability to recognize and understand reality.
@Laura Enriquez: Exactly. That is why they call it a mental illness. The lack of understanding about mental illness on these message boards is frankly a bit shocking.
@save_jinger: Good lord, did you read my responses? Also, Laura Enriquez stated that some do and some don't. That's why I was asking. Don't condescend to me.
@Shannon: In my opinion (I'm not a doctor or anything, just basing this on my own experience) some sociopathical behavior is based in mental illness and some is not. I can't really speak about the "not" category because I have no idea what would motivate someone in those cases, but I do know that some sociopaths know that they are doing something wrong and don't care and others don't understand why what they're doing is wrong.
@Laura Enriquez: @Shannon: I think the trouble with this whole discussion is that the term "sociopath" is not officially used in psychology. If you think that whether "sociopaths" are the same as people who have ASPD is a matter of opinion, then I guess whether or not "sociopaths" have mental illness is a matter of opinion, too.
@save_jinger: Yes it's true that the word itself is outdated in medical literature but it is still used to discuss the same occurrence. Have you studied any of this?
@save_jinger: Then how could you say that the use of both terms is the problem with this whole discussion when that occurs regularly? It is not PC, but it does occur.
There is a frighteningly long list of other murder cases/disappearances he's being linked to. Why do so many men slip through the cracks like this?
I'm surprised they're even considering rehab. His crimes are so horrible that he deserves life imprisonment as some form of attonement.
The U.S penal system has many flaws, but I do think it a good thing that life without parole is regularly given. Some people do not deserve their freedom.
In the U.K, people are released from prison in a horrifically short space of time. Especially considering the fondness judges have for only convicting for manslaughter those who murder their wives and/or children .
@Dogtanian: Perhaps in the UK there would be more space in prisons for those required to spend a longer sentence if greater tools of rehabilitation were used.
I had not realised that the COURTS had allowed that monster to "adopt" his three children by his daughter after he claimed that his daughter had dumped them there. I had assumed that was a tale he had spun for his wife alone. No wonder the authorities are trying to brush aside THEIR complicity in these terrible events. As for Fritzell's wife, Rosemary West simialarly claimed she had no knowledge that HER husband was murdering females including their own daughter and her step-daughter amongst others and burying them in the cellar. The jury did not fall for Rosemary's professed ignorance and the whole horrific story only came to light AFTER Fred West was arrested for raping hisn 13 year old daughter.
@Rare Affinity: I know. There will always be evil people in the world, but the fact that there is not even an investigation into the systemic failures that allowed the state to so epically fail this family is inexcusable. To me it's worse than the prospect of him getting out at the age of 90.
@Rare Affinity: @J.D.Regent: I agree. I am honestly more disturbed by the lack of social institutions in place that allowed this happen than I am with the legal system's subsequent handling of it.
His sister-in-law, Christine Renner, said after hearing of the comparatively comfortable conditions in the psychiatric center, "What right does he have to live like this after all he has destroyed?" She added, "They should have put him in a pit, put a lid on it, locked it and thrown away the key."
HE is so evil. He even looks evil. And my heart bleeds for her. A lot. But a lot of me does not buy that the wife knew nothing. I mean, maybe she didn't. Maybe she didn't want to know...I don't know...the whole thing is so complicated, but I think that she maybe had an idea...I mean, some of Elisabeth's kids appeared "mysteriously" on the doorstep, and some of those kids got to live outside the basement.
Is he a monster? Probably not. Just agonizing fucked up. So sad. To call him a monster is to elevate his banality to something interesting, which he isn't.
@BillyBuddMaybe: For me to call him evil is to absolve our responsibility to LEARN from this. Yes, he is exceptionally horrific as a case study, but he is a case study nonetheless. He can be a tool with which to stop re-occurrence.
@brinkswomanship: He was given a life sentence with a possibility of parole in 15 years. He's already been in prison for almost a year, awaiting trial, so that is credited toward the 15 year minimum. So, assuming he has been rehabilitated, he becomes eligible for parole in 14 years. However, that means he has to (1) convince the psychiatrists that he is rehabilitated and (2) convince the authorities to parole him. Both will be pretty monumental tasks and, given the notoriety of this case, if he ever gets past part 1 and comes up for parole, my guess is that the public outcry against parole will be enormous.
This is why they need to have licensing for parenthood. Because kids can't control what kind of sick freaks they're born to. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with this guy?
On the other hand, at least the consecutive vs. concurrent debate is moot here. At 73, a 15-year sentence is equivalent to life. This man will never breathe free air again.
03/20/09
JUSTICE FAIL.
03/20/09
And I know for sure they don't sit well with some feminists on here (or so I've been forcibly informed).
03/20/09
It is really disheartening to see some of the reactions, but even though it's Jezebel, it's the internet, so I'm not exactly shocked to see the worst in people come out.
03/20/09
I just hope he gets a case of flesh-eating bacteria, his dick gets all necrotic, and anesthetics and painkillers fail to work. I hope that he gets "locked in" his own brain, never to escape the pain of the lesions and his own deranged thoughts.
03/20/09
[en.wikipedia.org]
03/20/09
I totally applaud a justice system that truly aims to rehabilitate rather than just punish (and can see how bonding with animals could lead to compassion for people), but...Jesus.
03/20/09
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03/20/09
Perhaps I should just walk from these threads, but I find it honestly so very disheartening to see people veering from my definition of reasonable reactions so wildly.
03/20/09
Mentally ill people range from good to bad, just like people without mental illness.
03/20/09
No one wants to admit that there are probably some 'good' traits within Fritzl, but it's virtually undeniable in my book. No one is born evil.
03/20/09
03/20/09
@SarahMC: A comment such as "He is evil and should rot in a hole" suggests that an individual is completely evil. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "good" or "bad" person, only individual people. And people sometimes make deplorable or "evil" actions, and many times, the most deplorable of actions are perpetrated by individuals with a history of mental illness. That does not mean they are Satan, and vilifying someone to that point does the justice system a massive disservice.
Even individuals who commit the most heinous crimes have people who care about them, and people they care about. It's a tough pill to swallow, but the reality exists nonetheless.
03/20/09
What admitting his illness does allow is a discourse that means we can learn from his actions. As I said above, Fritzl is an extreme case study. Anything that can be learned from him, his life and his mental state can be used to prevent things of this nature recurring.
03/20/09
03/20/09
Antisocial personality disorder is in the DSM, and sociopathy is generally considered to be the same thing as ASPD. So yes, it is considered a mental illness by medical professionals. However, many criminals do have ASPD, and no one is saying it excuses them from criminal behavior. So just because someone might consider sociopathy to be a mental illness, and might have compassion for the person, yet not for the crimes, does not mean they don't think they shouldn't be isolated so that the community is safe. There is a big difference between punishing someone in a retributive manner, and punishing someone so as to isolate them from society to protect it.
When you are dealing with someone who has a mental illness (and I don't know what Fritzl's is), it is pretty barbaric to punish them in a retributive, throw his evil ass into a whole to rot manner, and a lot more palatable to simply isolate him from society so he can't re-offend. Don't forget, even if Fritzl was charged with these crimes at 40, he could be held indefinitely until he was deemed "rehabilitated." It's not necessarily a policy that will always be "fairer" to those with mental illness, since they can and do sometimes find themselves locked up for longer than a sane person would have been had he or she committed the same crime.
03/20/09
"There's a biological and environmental factor that leads to how every one of us behaves, all the time. I do believe that mental illness exists. However, I also believe that incredibly ordinary people are capable of incredible cruelty."
After following this case since it emerged, I must say that I am highly disappointed in his punishment- OF COURSE, all mentally ill people aren't inherently evil, and if it could be determined (which I don't think enough time was spent on cross examination or psycho analysis of him to have possibly determined this) that he was severely mentally ill, he should definitely not be punished barbarically.
However, I am of the opinion that there are certain crimes that one could commit that one just can't simply be rehabilitated from(see clockwork orange), especially if one is found to be of sound mind, and acting only on selfish desire to indulge one's own capacity for incredible cruelty(this condition I personally do not think should be classified as a mental illness that one puts one into that "excusable" territory)- rape in general, (and of one's own daughter, none the less- AND FOR 24 YEARS NONE THE LESS) is one of them.
That being said, I cannot stomach the idea of punishing him in a manner "more palatable to simply isolate him from society so he can't re-offend" -it seems bizarre, considering palatable is nowhere in my vocabulary when I consider how his daughter must have felt all those years, now, and probably will for the rest of her life.
Although it won't ever happen, I would have no problem living in a world where offenses such as his were punished more barbarically. (and let's not split hairs here- no I'm not saying ay ole thing should get your dick chopped off- just things specifically having to do with heinous crimes on a large scale- and yes I know that's sort of relative to whom-ever deems things heinous and large scale) I think that more horrific punishment might just prove to be a deterrent to those who find themselves capable of such crimes, be they simply capable of great cruelty. And if believing that make me, therefore, cruel, or seemingly mentally ill myself, then I am perfectly OK with that.
03/20/09
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03/20/09
I'm surprised they're even considering rehab. His crimes are so horrible that he deserves life imprisonment as some form of attonement.
The U.S penal system has many flaws, but I do think it a good thing that life without parole is regularly given. Some people do not deserve their freedom.
In the U.K, people are released from prison in a horrifically short space of time. Especially considering the fondness judges have for only convicting for manslaughter those who murder their wives and/or children .
03/20/09
03/20/09
03/20/09
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03/20/09
That pretty much sums up my feelings.
03/20/09
And my heart bleeds for her.
A lot.
But a lot of me does not buy that the wife knew nothing. I mean, maybe she didn't. Maybe she didn't want to know...I don't know...the whole thing is so complicated, but I think that she maybe had an idea...I mean, some of Elisabeth's kids appeared "mysteriously" on the doorstep, and some of those kids got to live outside the basement.
03/20/09
One might think by the same token, that a husband/father couldn't do what he did, but that turned out to not be true. It's such a staggering tragedy.
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03/20/09
On the other hand, at least the consecutive vs. concurrent debate is moot here. At 73, a 15-year sentence is equivalent to life. This man will never breathe free air again.