I'm a grown-up, I don't have frenemies anymore. That nonsense belongs in high school when you are more or less forced to hang out with people. There are people I'm not crazy about, but I don't put up with drama like I did when I was 16.
I'm really getting tired of male friendships being held up as the ideal. Yes, I think they have less drama than female friendships, but there is loads of research out there that shows that men do not confide in other men, they confide in other women. If you rarely admit insecurity or weaknesses to your friends, there is going to be less drama because there is less ammo. But you also don't get the emotional benefits of having friends you can confide in. Men mostly confide in their significant others, not their friends, which comes with pluses and negatives. (I was literally just reading research on this, so the post is really apropos).
After thinking about this long and hard (that what she said) I realize the reason my best friend IS, is because we're different enough that the competition just isn't an issue - I have another female friend who I keep at arms length because she and I are a lot alike - and it can get tense from time to time if I am worried about something or happy about something and her reaction/response is belittling. All relationships are a dance and not always a waltz.
@sybann: Agreed. My best female friends are a lot different from me. I'm quiet, reserved, and really into science. One of them is extroverted, and she has a career in music which she LOVES. My other great friend (should I say "our" since we three are kind of a tight group) is going for her degree in Architecture. We THINK alike, but our interests and personalities are different, even if we have the same opinions about a lot of things. I think this is what makes the relationship less stressful...there's no chance for competition, really, because we're not trying to out-do one another.
"You're never satisfied. That's just who you are. You felt deprived as a child, and there's nothing anyone can do to make it up to you. You could marry Bill Gates and still think you were getting fucked over."
You know, I feel like that sometimes. It was part of my motivation to study hard, because I always felt lacking in financial resources when I was a kid. Not that I was poor, but when compared to classmates and some relatives, I FELT poor...relatives who constantly like to remind you of it don't help much, either. I'd be lying if I said I don't have a bit of a complex in that area, so I did my best to be better than others in the one area I was good at: academics.
However, I'm painfully conscious of this, thanks to a lot of introspection. I try very hard to fight those feelings, because I know they're negative and I know they're not helpful. It's gotten better, I have to say. I remind myself that I don't have to constantly compare myself to others, and that we all have a different life, different circumstances, and we all just do the best with whatever cards we're dealt. It doesn't make any of us better or worse than others.
Wow, I'd never mention this to anyone else (THANK YOU, INTERNET ANONYMITY).
Huh. The only thing I have to disagree with is the part you call "unrealistically bitchy." As somebody who is dealing with infertility, I have people who I love and are otherwise sane say shit like this to me ALL THE TIME. In fact, I'm sure I have heard darn near these exact words about STDs and infertility from friends before. They don't think they are being bitchy, they think they are being helpful.
Kind of seems to me there are two tropes about female friendship, at either end of a continuum: either women are really all 'frenemies' and their 'friendships' are toxic waste dumps filled with jealousy and mutual undermining (this book), OR women's friendships are so deep and intense as to render romantic relationships frivolous by comparison (Sex and the City). The truth--and where genuinely artful literature and movies, not just pop like this lives--no doubt lies somewhere in between and is much more complex and varied. I, for one, couldn't exists without my female friends; they are my life, my heart, my support system--my family, frankly. And I am suspect of women who say they don't have women friends. It seems like saying...I don't have friends. But Rosenfeld has found a hot button, dramatic take on friendship that will no doubt get her readers.
Ugh, please stop with this BS already. When will people realise that you just CAN'T generalise about an entire half of the world's population like this?! We are women but we are individuals as well, and regular cattiness, jealousy and back-stabbing within friendships is not common to every single one of us; at least not the ones with a sense of human decency, the ones who seek a meaningful relationship with their friends.
@marionette: Female generalization: we're evil succubi and sensitive kittens all wrapped up in a boobs-and-waxed-vagina-package. And we hate the other succu-kittens. I give up!
I'm totally Wendy - I reached that realization this year and have been working to get out of the 'funk' so to speak, of living in another woman's shadow who always competed with me and who I loved and loathed at the same time. And I have definitely had a couple of friends in my time that were competitive and snarky and yet we couldn't stay away from each other. Most of my girlfriends have said the same at one time or another.
I've also been the girl who says I never get along with other women. In the past its been true. Luckily as I've grown up I realized it was more about the type of friends I was choosing in the same sex more than all women in general.
I had two best friends in middle and high school. One was my "convenience" best friend with whom I shared all my classes and extracurriculars. She was ALWAYS comparing herself to me and trying to make me feel bad about myself. The other was an awesome, funny, caring girl with whom I had a lot in common, personality-wise. Can you guess who I stopped talking to immediately after graduation and who will be my maid of honor in my wedding?
I love my friends and am happy for them when good things come their way. Sure I might be bummed if it is not me, but it is fleeting and the joy for another is easier. I long ago shed the relationships I had with women who were nasty, bitter, angry and jealous. Who needs it?
Hell, I guess I should stop writing stories where women are supportive. Maybe that is why I cannot get published??
Things like this come about and are unnaturally exaggerated because there is a pervasive attitude that women are always supposed to be overly friendly, relationship-oriented, and selfless.
It is natural to feel a twinge of jealousy from time to time with friends. We are happy for their successes, but those successes often cause periods of self reflection, and sometimes we don't like what we see. So we feel a little jealous, or depressed. This does not make us "frenemies". It is when we become passive aggressive (like the characters in said novel) that we have problems, and it is incredibly insulting that any person would insinuate that the complex nature of female relationships lies in our inability to be always happy and always smiling for the good of our friends.
I would rather spend my life without a man than not have my girlfriends (glad I don't have to choose) around me. I don't understand how you can have "friends." NO. They are my FRIENDS, without quotations, winking, or any of that. And it pisses me off when people make blanket statements such as "Girls are catty." Excuse me? What the fuck kind of idiocy is that? And these statements are usually made by women who fancy themselves "guy's girls" or especially intelligent or some shit. And it's just never true. They're usually the kind of people that require attention, therefore they "just don't get along with other girls." It's silly, really. I've learned to just roll my eyes and appreciate that all my girlfriends kick serious ass and call it day.
I think the thing that's troubling about female-female friendships (in my own experience, of course) is that we as women are acutely, painfully aware that men hate us* and so we desperately seek sisterhood. Of course all relationships require compromise. But just how much should we give up in the name of sisterhood? I do believe having a friend who is a woman is, for me, as a woman, a good in itself because it means I have a friend who understands the experience of being a woman. How lonely it could be, being around men who've never had such experiences day in and day out.
But when you get in the habit of compromising too much, then what sisterhood is that?
Another thought: books like this socialize young women to act this way. Look, it's totally normal to be incredibly mean to your "friends" and to undermine those people you pretend to care about! Culture is enormously influential on the behavior of the people living in that culture. Why is this acceptable? "Oh, it's so true, it really speaks to my experience of reality." Why is that? And isn't that fucked up?
____
*i am not being "misandrist" or any such thing. that the patriarchy exists and it is unkind to women is a fundamental aspect of my life, and so it falls under the umbrella of "in my experience."
06/25/09
I'm really getting tired of male friendships being held up as the ideal. Yes, I think they have less drama than female friendships, but there is loads of research out there that shows that men do not confide in other men, they confide in other women. If you rarely admit insecurity or weaknesses to your friends, there is going to be less drama because there is less ammo. But you also don't get the emotional benefits of having friends you can confide in. Men mostly confide in their significant others, not their friends, which comes with pluses and negatives. (I was literally just reading research on this, so the post is really apropos).
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
You know, I feel like that sometimes. It was part of my motivation to study hard, because I always felt lacking in financial resources when I was a kid. Not that I was poor, but when compared to classmates and some relatives, I FELT poor...relatives who constantly like to remind you of it don't help much, either. I'd be lying if I said I don't have a bit of a complex in that area, so I did my best to be better than others in the one area I was good at: academics.
However, I'm painfully conscious of this, thanks to a lot of introspection. I try very hard to fight those feelings, because I know they're negative and I know they're not helpful. It's gotten better, I have to say. I remind myself that I don't have to constantly compare myself to others, and that we all have a different life, different circumstances, and we all just do the best with whatever cards we're dealt. It doesn't make any of us better or worse than others.
Wow, I'd never mention this to anyone else (THANK YOU, INTERNET ANONYMITY).
06/25/09
06/25/09
Damn, that make me jealous. (D'oh!)
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
I've also been the girl who says I never get along with other women. In the past its been true. Luckily as I've grown up I realized it was more about the type of friends I was choosing in the same sex more than all women in general.
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
Hell, I guess I should stop writing stories where women are supportive. Maybe that is why I cannot get published??
06/25/09
06/25/09
I also have a friendship-sisterhood just like it. Man, I love those girls.
06/25/09
It is natural to feel a twinge of jealousy from time to time with friends. We are happy for their successes, but those successes often cause periods of self reflection, and sometimes we don't like what we see. So we feel a little jealous, or depressed. This does not make us "frenemies". It is when we become passive aggressive (like the characters in said novel) that we have problems, and it is incredibly insulting that any person would insinuate that the complex nature of female relationships lies in our inability to be always happy and always smiling for the good of our friends.
Where's the book that explores THAT?
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
06/25/09
But when you get in the habit of compromising too much, then what sisterhood is that?
Another thought: books like this socialize young women to act this way. Look, it's totally normal to be incredibly mean to your "friends" and to undermine those people you pretend to care about! Culture is enormously influential on the behavior of the people living in that culture. Why is this acceptable? "Oh, it's so true, it really speaks to my experience of reality." Why is that? And isn't that fucked up?
____
*i am not being "misandrist" or any such thing. that the patriarchy exists and it is unkind to women is a fundamental aspect of my life, and so it falls under the umbrella of "in my experience."
06/25/09