I mean, I think it's stupid to try to and force everyone to conform to being "French" instead of letting them be how they are, but I admire the decision to have a national discussion about such a difficult topic. You see how well burying your head in the sand turned out for the U.S. #frenchnaturalization
@Triana Orpheus: The US doesn't have anywhere near the problems with assimilation that France does. Say what you will about anti-immigration sentiment in the US, but our first- and second-generation immigrants are nowhere near as impoverished, marginalized, politically unrepresented and culturally maligned as the Algerian/West African immigrant communities in France.
You might admire them, but I don't think they get a cookie for finally being forced to have a discussion--not real change, just a discussion!--about an issue that's so central to their society. They should have discussed this and put policy in place decades ago. #frenchnaturalization
@BeckySharper: Trust, I'm not jumping up and down in joy. I have a brother over there and he's let me know how awful they treat immigrants in France. I also watched the news during the riots and understood the anger the youths felt. I'm just saying that it would do us some good to open up the floor to talk about it. So many people want to close their ears for fear of being called rascists, but the conversation must be held. #frenchnaturalization
@kemperboyd: Add Fred Armisen to that list since he and Elisabeth got married. There is no way she would have agreed to marry him unless he embraced Scientology, too. That's how they are. Sigh.
Scientology is a scam, plan and simple. Not a religion, not a cult, not a sect. If it is not to be outlawed, it must at the very least be stripped of its power to function within the trappings of capitalism - it's ability to hire laywers, be exempt from tax, make profits etc. #scientology
@MissNormaDesmond: My point is that labeling something a cult makes it appear mystical and clouds the truth somewhat. At least to my eyes. "Cult" links the group to religion, which is a tricky subject. By calling a spade a spade, we can loose any association with spiritual rights violations and discrimination that Scientology has repeatedly fallen back on. #scientology
@Barbed Ire: Well, it may to you, but to those of us who know what the word "cult" means, it just makes it appear like a cult. I've seen a cult in action, and known people who belonged to them. They are in fact generally scams, and Scientology is one. #scientology
@FrannyR: It's called a Scientology Cross, and rather than it having anything to do with the worship of Christ, each of its 8 points represents a "value." Using the most recognizable Christian symbol on Earth to advertise utterly non-Christian teachings is a blatant form of false advertising.
Tom Cruise has been interviewed saying that anyone can be a Scientologist: a Christian, a Jew, a Protestant, etc. This adds credence to the idea of Scientology as (at best) an EST-type of self-help philosophy, and for this and a hundred other reasons, is utterly undeserving of the tax-exempt status it receives as a religious organization. #scientology
Although this is more of an attack on Scientology's methods of 'recruiting' (and financial exploitation...) than any other country has yet made so far as I'm aware, it's worth pointing out that the French court's judgement was actually much more lenient than many expected it to be. The ultimate outcome could have been the banning of Scientology's institutional presence within French territory, the seizing of all its assets within that territory, and the shutting down of all of its institutions. Instead they just got fined. You can pretty much sense the disappointment in the voices of the French news announcers this morning...! #scientology
Back when other religions started out, everyone else called those believers crazy and weird. Is Scientology that different?This is coming from someone who is pretty much finished with all organized religion.
@lilyHaze: Yes. A cult is not just something that is weird and crazy. It is something that has complete control over its followers. In an organized religion, you have free will. You can come and go as you please. Nobody is forcing you to be there.
Cults like Scientology are a relatively new a phenomenon, like in the past fifty years or so. Cults brainwash and exploit their followers using methods that were perfected in Communist China. So no, Christianity and other religions were not like Scientology when they first started.
@Sputnik_Sweetheart: What about the fundamentalist Mormons (the ones who practice polygamy)? They are offered church status in the US, but operate very much like a cult. I believe it is very difficult to leave them unless you're a teenage boy.
This is my own personal belief, but I think the line between church and cult is very grey. #scientology
@lilyHaze: One important difference is money. Go into a Lutheran church and ask what the secret of salvation is, and you'll get told for free. Hell, they might even offer you coffee. Go into a Scientology center, ask the same thing and you'll be told to start taking expensive classes lasting many years in order to find out. #scientology
@lilyHaze: I'm a long time atheist so I can understand a little bit of your thoughts, but yeah there are differences. Scientology gets as much flack as it does because of all the money required to practice it. Also, there are some issues with control and honesty going on there. See Paul Haggis' resignation letter from the CoS, posted on Gawker, to see what I mean.
It can of course be claimed that in the history of any major religion, shit has gone down. This can be said for any large group of people that's been around for awhile. It's unfortunate, but you get some people together, they get a little power, and then they abuse that power. The difference with Scientology, is its intentions, which from what I can see, is greed. #scientology
@lilyHaze: The church of Scientology aggressively goes after *anyone who disagrees with them, using physical intimidation, blackmail and bogus lawsuits which threaten financial ruin. They are more than just a bunch of crackpots who believe in spirits and gods. They are dangerous. That's the difference.
ps: when I say 'anyone who disagrees with them' I am not exaggerating. Just disagreeing is enough to get the COS outside your house passing fliers to your neighbors saying you are a child molester. #scientology
Cults are typically defined by five characteristics. First, cults tend to centralize power in the hands of a single individual or small group that is considered beyond questions. Second, they treat all questions about the group and its beliefs as intolerable challenges to the group's authority and authenticity. Third, they demean all those who do not share their beliefs and sow fear and mistrust amongst their believers about all such people. Fourth, they typically cut off all or most opportunities for members to interact freely with those outside the group. And finally, they take revenge upon those who choose to leave the group, in ways which include, cutting them off from all relationships with those who remain inside, confiscation of material goods and even physical harm.
The fact that pretty much every religion has done all of these things at some point in history of the group means the while the line between cults and religions is clear, it is not fixed or static. In fact, most cults have the capacity to move past the kind of ugly behavior which defines them as a cult. And more importantly, most religions can and do slip into cult-like behavior from time to time. When they remain steadfast in such behavior, however old their tradition, or however popular, they become a cult.
@Sputnik_Sweetheart: i don't know if i buy that cults are a recent phenomenon. there were definitely sub-groups of early christianity—the gnostics, for example—that have all the markings for a cult.
i feel like what's more disturbing about modern religious formation is how they center around capital gain. scientology is one example, but within the ten years after the mormon church was founded it had something like 6 billion dollars in assets (reported in the London Times, 1865, i think; it's been a while, i can dig it up...), and is still very rich today.
whether or not you believe or partake in organized religions, it seems as though the dominant mode of creating a spiritual community has been through money and capitalism, rather than community. but maybe the capitalist system itself has become our primary community organization. #scientology
@wembles: What I said was cults as we know them today are a recent phenomenon. Yes, there were similar groups before then, but the brainwashing methods that help define destructive cults today did not exist before the 1950's.
@jinxykb: I wrote a lighthearted piece years ago taking the mick out of a Scientology billboard ad. I was contacted at the paper by the "Church," told I was engaging in religious bigotry, and informed that my name was now in their files and they would also send the story to their HQ in LA. They also said they would be looking out in future for any more articles I wrote about Scientology to see if I was engaging in a targeted campaign. Their reaction was pretty nasty - and completely, ridiculously over the top. #scientology
@lilyHaze: I think it can be a fuzzy thing, and as an atheist I'm no fan of any church. All the same, there is a world of difference between Scn and your average church. Do a bit of research on Scientology and you will find it's pretty scary and cult-like. I mean, they have labour camps (google 'Rehabilitation Project Force'), they cut people off from uncooperative family members and friends, and the treatment of Sea Org members (including children) and Scientology staff is truly horrific. #scientology
@wtfox?!: Thanks to the cook employed by the church I was raised in, everything was covered with celery. Celery on top of english muffin pizza is a tool of the devil. #scientology
@ShrikirtiRaven: No, I haven't heard from them since that call, but I told my friends that if I ever mysteriously disappeared...
And my boss thought it was hilarious! I was kinda hoping he might have called them and let them have it, but no such luck. He did go around telling everyone in the office about how they'd tried to bully me for calling their billboard tacky so I guess, at the end of the day, their response was counterproductive - instead of being taken seriously, they came across as a bunch of whiny nutjobs. #scientology
France has really taken me on a roller coaster ride lately. I'm pre determined to like them because of their copious amounts of vacation time, yet they publicly advocate for Roman Polanski, but then again they have the balls to call Scientology out for what it is. Back in the win column France. #scientology
What is the difference between a cult, a sect, and a religion? It seems to me to be only a matter of whether the practice is widely seen as legitimate. You may answer this as a joke or as a serious question. #scientology
@Percy: well as someone who thinks the majority of religion is bunk (not judging anyone who is religious just my personal opinion) I do think there's a difference. Example, if you are interested in learning about say, Jehovahs Witness all you have to do is contact them and they will answer all your questions and give you all the material you could ever want. However, if you approached the "church" of Scientology in such a fashion they would only supply you with a small amount of info and then stop and wait for you to write a check. Not to mention the fact that the movement was originally started as a "self-help" movement until they famously changed their designation to a church to get a tax exempt status. #scientology
@Percy: There is a huge difference between a religion and a cult. In a religious organization, you can come and go as you please, nobody is forcing you to be there. In a cult, on the other hand, you are controlled and monitored. You can't make your own decisions.
@bluebears: Yeah, the tax dodge is a big part of the issue. The fact that they routinely scare and blackmail people into staying in their "religion" makes it much more cult-like, in my opinion as well. Other things like recruiting celebrities gives me pause because it indicates a desire for money and a certain degree of fameballing. Actually, those things considered, I kind of feel the same way about Kabbalah. #scientology
@Tchotchke: right. the threats of blackmail is def. a cult like trait. If you want to leave the Catholic Church they might worry you're going to hell but the Priest wont run into the street and start telling everything you've ever confessed to. #scientology
@Sputnik_Sweetheart: Even after looking at the link, I'm still confused. Cults encourage members to cut ties with non-members and isolate themselves within the community. But, to me, that seems to be the basis of religions like Mormonism, which is a religion. Yet the FLDS, a cult, is a spinoff of Mormons. Although I suppose some people even consider Mormonism a cult. Some practices do fall neatly into one category or another, but others seem debatable. #scientology
@Percy: I feel like "cult" is really overused. There are some groups that obviously seem like cults, like the one recently where the guy claimed to be the Holy Ghost and made everyone had sex with him, but most of the time it's hurtful and unhelpful. People, unsurprisingly, tend to get upset when you call their religion a cult. I think it's better to point out aspects of a religion you find troublesome rather than going "Ooh, CULT!"
And yeah, lots of religions have cult-like traits. You could even find a lot of cult-like traits in non-religions, like the army.
(Mormonism doesn't make people isolate themselves and cut ties with others, by the way. It is a frequent target of the cult accusation by traditional Christians, though, who think Mormons are going to hell.)
@Plate2.18: I've known several people whose faith I found questionable, and I just "mm-hm" and "oh, really?" my way through any discussion of their beliefs. Yeah, calling someone's faith a cult is generally a bad idea (even if it is one). #scientology
@Percy: A lot of people think Mormonism is a cult. However, a cult has to have an authoritarian power structure. In Scientology's case, it was L. Ron Hubbard, and when he died a group of people took over and they keep their followers tightly in check through exploitation and brainwashing. This is why the FLDS is a cult- it had a very rigid power system that was designed to give the leader complete control over the followers. #scientology
@femme-bot: Mine isn't. We collect tithes to keep the lights on at the actual church and at the parsonage (our pastor's home) and pay our staff (pastor, office manager, the piano/organist, interns, rector, etc.) Our pastor lives modestly, but comfortably. And everything money related is voted on by a board made up of church members, so he can't just give himself a raise. W do have volunteers, but we also think people should be paid and paid decently for their unique talents, so we pay a living wage to the lay staff. There are churches that are highly unethical and thieving and have never-ending fundraisers to repair the roof of the church for example, but then you see the pastor with a new BMW. So when a church like mine is doing fundraising for our soup kitchen, people are suspicious. An old friend of mine was a pastor's kid and she often complained by how offended people were that her father should get paid $60,000/year which isn't that much considering his wife didn't work and they had 3 kids (and numerous other kids that lived with his family over the years). Anyway, I don't think it's fair to say that most churches are obsessed with money, because it's actually a small minority. #scientology
@Triana Orpheus: "Belgium, Germany and other European countries have been criticized by the U.S. State Department for labeling Scientology as a cult or sect and enacting laws to restrict its operations." -- That's from the article, and makes me think perhaps the Belgians, Germans and French know something we don't. #scientology
@Devonna: Probably. They use the star power they have to influence the public. They had Bart Simpson making phone calls! If the U.S. came down on this sect I have no doubt the "church" would frame it as the beginning of the persecution of all religions. And you know the mess that would cause. #scientology
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Aïcha, Aïcha, don't go away... #frenchnaturalization
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You might admire them, but I don't think they get a cookie for finally being forced to have a discussion--not real change, just a discussion!--about an issue that's so central to their society. They should have discussed this and put policy in place decades ago. #frenchnaturalization
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Laura Prepon
Danny and Chris Masterson
Jason Lee
Elisabeth Moss
Nancy Cartwright #scientology
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Tom Cruise has been interviewed saying that anyone can be a Scientologist: a Christian, a Jew, a Protestant, etc. This adds credence to the idea of Scientology as (at best) an EST-type of self-help philosophy, and for this and a hundred other reasons, is utterly undeserving of the tax-exempt status it receives as a religious organization. #scientology
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Cults like Scientology are a relatively new a phenomenon, like in the past fifty years or so. Cults brainwash and exploit their followers using methods that were perfected in Communist China. So no, Christianity and other religions were not like Scientology when they first started.
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This is my own personal belief, but I think the line between church and cult is very grey. #scientology
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It can of course be claimed that in the history of any major religion, shit has gone down. This can be said for any large group of people that's been around for awhile. It's unfortunate, but you get some people together, they get a little power, and then they abuse that power. The difference with Scientology, is its intentions, which from what I can see, is greed. #scientology
10/27/09
ps: when I say 'anyone who disagrees with them' I am not exaggerating. Just disagreeing is enough to get the COS outside your house passing fliers to your neighbors saying you are a child molester. #scientology
10/27/09
From WaPo:
Cults are typically defined by five characteristics. First, cults tend to centralize power in the hands of a single individual or small group that is considered beyond questions. Second, they treat all questions about the group and its beliefs as intolerable challenges to the group's authority and authenticity. Third, they demean all those who do not share their beliefs and sow fear and mistrust amongst their believers about all such people. Fourth, they typically cut off all or most opportunities for members to interact freely with those outside the group. And finally, they take revenge upon those who choose to leave the group, in ways which include, cutting them off from all relationships with those who remain inside, confiscation of material goods and even physical harm.
The fact that pretty much every religion has done all of these things at some point in history of the group means the while the line between cults and religions is clear, it is not fixed or static. In fact, most cults have the capacity to move past the kind of ugly behavior which defines them as a cult. And more importantly, most religions can and do slip into cult-like behavior from time to time. When they remain steadfast in such behavior, however old their tradition, or however popular, they become a cult.
[newsweek.washingtonpost.com] #scientology
10/27/09
i feel like what's more disturbing about modern religious formation is how they center around capital gain. scientology is one example, but within the ten years after the mormon church was founded it had something like 6 billion dollars in assets (reported in the London Times, 1865, i think; it's been a while, i can dig it up...), and is still very rich today.
whether or not you believe or partake in organized religions, it seems as though the dominant mode of creating a spiritual community has been through money and capitalism, rather than community. but maybe the capitalist system itself has become our primary community organization. #scientology
10/27/09
[en.wikipedia.org] #scientology
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And my boss thought it was hilarious! I was kinda hoping he might have called them and let them have it, but no such luck. He did go around telling everyone in the office about how they'd tried to bully me for calling their billboard tacky so I guess, at the end of the day, their response was counterproductive - instead of being taken seriously, they came across as a bunch of whiny nutjobs. #scientology
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This site breaks it down:
[faithresource.org] #scientology
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And yeah, lots of religions have cult-like traits. You could even find a lot of cult-like traits in non-religions, like the army.
(Mormonism doesn't make people isolate themselves and cut ties with others, by the way. It is a frequent target of the cult accusation by traditional Christians, though, who think Mormons are going to hell.)
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