I took a class taught by an expert in interrogation tactics and falsified memories. He worked on a very scary case in Northern California where interrogators convinced an innocent man that he'd raped and murdered his girlfriend while they were out jogging.
They just kept working him and working him and questioning him for hours and softening him and twisting his words and asking him, "What WOULD you have done if you'd killed her?" They asked him to practice a confession, etc. Eventually, they got him to believe he'd done it.
I don't know if you have to have a particularly "susceptible" personality for this to work, but planting false memories and encouraging false confessions happens. It seems like that may have occurred in this case.
@dingdang: That's crazy. I feel like this could happen especially if one is innocent...like if Amanda was trying to be helpful but they just harassed her until she gave up a name. I have no expertise here, I just think that if I were in the situation, and I were innocent, I would be terrified and might be pretty easily manipulated.
@Lymed: Seriously. Speaking to the police without a lawyer present, even if the police tell you you wouldn't need one if you were innocent and that getting a lawyer right away makes you look guilty, is the ONLY THING TO DO if you get arrested.
It is legal for the police to lie to you, mislead you, tell you they've already got all the evidence against you they need, etc. It is NOT legal for them to continue to question you if you tell them you are invoking your right to remain silent and your right to an attorney. If they continue to press you (as they so often do on cop shows) after you ask for a lawyer, anything you say *should* be excluded from the record.
@dingdang: I saw a horrible movie about that once, but cannot for the life of me remember anything about it except that a kid was tricked into remembering a horrible crime. And I saw it on TV.
A police detective spoke to my criminal justice class in law school and played a video of an interrogation that he was a part of. The suspect in the interrogation testified to the crime. She gave details. When another person confessed and it became clear the other person was guilty, the police who interrogated the suspect could not understand how she could be innocent if she knew all the details.
Then they watched the video of the interrogation and realized they gave her every piece of information she told them.
Why did she lie? She was up all night and exhausted. She was a victim of child abuse and domestic abuse, and the officers learned that abuse victims will often lie if they think it will placate an authority figure.
There are many reasons a young foreign student would give up and admit a crime she didn't commit if she thought it would end the interrogation.
I'm an American near Amanda's age living in France. Even though I am called "fluent" in French (as Amanda is in Italian), I would be TERRIFIED if I were ever questioned for a crime. She didn't have an attorney or interpreter, and was probably not familiar at all with her rights or the investigation process. Of course I can't say whether she committed the crime or not but I can TOTALLY understand her story being murky/changing.
This whole thing has reminded me I should educate myself more about the French legal system.
@mass romantic: I can't imagine going to live in Italy for a year-- I just finished a year of Italian at UW (one of my profs also taught Knox), and the idea of getting over there and then using it constantly is mind-blowing.
@mass romantic: I lived in Germany for a couple of years and toward the end was "fluent" (though I never call myself that outside the context of this kind of conversation, cuz I feel like a moron in German and don't want to pretend to be super awesome when I feel like I'm not), but same situation--I'd flip my shit if I were on trial over there. Like seriously flip the fuck out.
Forensic experts testified that it has Kercher's DNA on the tip and Knox's on the handle, but she said she wasn't upset because she knew it was the murder weapon.
Wait, she told her mom she knew her own knife was the murder weapon?
@jigglyball: Surely it's a typo? She knew it WASN'T the murder weapon, right? I think the "she" is the attorney representing "Friends of Amanda," who says in the Time magazine link that the knife doesn't match the blood on the bed linens and couldn't be the murder weapon.
And agreed about wanting to know Sollecito's story...will be corroborate Amanda's? If he didn't, that would be very odd since her story doesn't implicate either of them.
This is messed up three ways from Sunday. I'm not sure we'll ever know what the truth actually is.
I will be surprised if she is able to beat this - whether innocent or not. I'd be surprised if she got a fir trial there from all that I have heard on the legal end.
I tried to read several articles on this trial but it became evident that the Italian Justice system and the unbiased media of several countries have made true justice impossible in this case. It appears that the person that murdered Kercher has already been found guilty (I forgot his name, he was a drug dealer who was loitering near their place, who fled to another country to escape the Italian authorities) yet nobody seems to care, they just want to have a salacious trial because it's more fun.
On top of this, I don't think the Italian justice system has removed the head prosecutor from the case even though he is currently on trial for sensationalizing and bungling a former major murder case. No conflict of interest, eh?
I will admit that it is because of this trial and the way it's been carried out that I crossed Italy off my list of countries I'd like to visit in the next 20 years. Between Berlusconi and his "rapist men are just being regular men, aww shucks" personality and this trial, I am judging another country--I know it's unfair, but I try not to talk or think of it too often so hopefully my bias will fade.
@GinaRomantica: and like I said above, it was in regards to her being quick on the field as an athlete, not as a femme fatale. My guess? The editors here will probably say they use it b/c it's recognizable as referring to this woman. It still turns me off, though. IMO it's nasty.
@GinaRomantica: I think it's meant to highlight how the media in both countries is referring to and portraying her. I don't think they're condoning it, but rather putting it in this context to show how ridiculous it is.
I am so torn over this case. I read an article that really made me think she hadn't done it and then I read an article that really made me think she had.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Didn't do it. Watched 20/20 on Friday, and it made more sense to me. While her behavior was a little odd, there was NO evidence of her DNA at the crime scene. There was a ton of DNA evidence of the guy they already arrested. How could she clean up her DNA, but not the other guy's. Also, the stab wounds don't even add up to the knife they found in her boyfriend's apartment. I really don't like they way they are portraying her in the Italian media. It has a lot to do with her being an American, and therefore a slut. Ugh. Poor girl and her parents.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I am really torn as well. I don't know what to think. I mean, it doesn't really seem that the prosecution has a lot of evidence that she was involved, does it? But on the other hand, I truly cannot imagine implicating myself in a murder because of police pressure. Being tortured, guantanamo-style, would of course make me confess to anything to get it to stop, but like, you're under arrest in a foreign country and you confess to things you didn't do? I have a hard time with that. And then the Ivory-coast national saying from jail that she was involved? What motivation would he have for her to be wrongfully convicted -- he's already been sentenced so it's not like he'll have a lighter sentence if she's involved.
Very bizarre. I guess I kind of lean more towards guilty than not guilty, but I just don't know.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I think she is not guilty - or at least not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (not sure what the italian legal standard is, but the case is W-E-A-K from an American legal standpoint). The only physical evidence is her prints on a kitchen knife from a house she lived in - those would be there either way. So that's weak. I think it's character assassination the way this girl has been set up as this evil sex-fueled rogue (see my comment above about the moniker foxy knoxy - and I've yet to read an article about her anywhere that leaves this out)....
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I have no idea. From what I've read she's changed her story numerous times, which leads me to believe she had some part in the murder.
On the other hand, if she was badgered during interrogation, then perhaps her alibi changed in order to give investigators what they wanted (and therefore make the interrogation stop).
All I know for sure, is that one young woman's life was cut short...
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I have no idea what happened on the night of the murder, or whether she is guilty or innocent. I do, however, have a lot of doubts about Italy's criminal justice system, about the chief prosecutor in this case, and about the number of police leaks that have taken place. I can't imagine how they could form a jury that was not prejudiced in some way by the Italian media coverage.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: That happened to me when I was reading about Margaret Kelly Michaels (who was convicted of abuse at a daycare in Maplewood, NJ, served 5 years in prison, and then had the conviction overturned because of the coercion the police used in getting statements from the alleged child victims). One book made me hate the woman and think she had done everything she was charged with. The next book I read made it seem logistically impossible for her to have harmed any of the children.
@mfnher: you know, that last bit is a really good point - I think American women are vilified as "loose" quite a bit in the European media and even entertainment that I've seen.
@DexterHaven: The amount of coverage does make it a trial by media, very much like the Duke lacrosse case.
If she didn't do it, though, I must say that I feel incredibly terrible for her. Not just because the last year of her life has been a nightmare, but because she'll always be remembered for that, it will always be the first thing in google searches, people will recall it when they're introduced at parties or she does job interviews, etc.
@blueberrypancake: I could see how one would falsely confess, especially in a foreign country, if the circumstances are right (or perhaps wrong is a better word). I am not sure what Italian interrogation techniques entail, or if she would have had access to the embassy, or how long the questioning/interrogation lasted for. It just seems to me like one would be scared and vulnerable.
But I agree that I am torn about this case. I will try to hulu the 20/20 mentioned by mfnher.
@mfnher: See I thought the same thing based on an article by MSNBC. BUT, what get's me is the fact that the guy that has already been arrested and convicted of the crime is implicating her from prison. What motivation does he have to do that?
@femputer: for that reason alone, i think she isn't guilty. it seems like the court of public opinion decided she was guilty because she was (1)attractive, (2)american and (3)couldn't be trusted. lethal trio there, y'know?
@lilbobbytables is a la-di-da feminist and blueberrypancake: I had a whole class on false confessions (a psychology course dealing with the psychological tactics the interrogators use), and I can tell you that many, many, many people give false confessions for one reason or another, and I wouldn't be shocked at all if this is really the case in this situation.
I can only hope for the best for this girl, but I fear the Italian justice system is not the most moral system.
@wooden_shoes: Can you explain why someone would give a false confession? It just blows my mind. I mean, like I said upthread, I could see myself giving a false confession if I were being physically or psychologically tortured. But during police questioning? Even with threatening/aggressive questioning, gestures, yelling, etc. I just cannot imaging saying I killed somebody when I didn't!
@lilbobbytables is a la-di-da feminist: Please don't read this as being stated in a snotty tone because I don't mean it that way at all, but anyone who thinks that they would never confess to a crime they didn't commit needs to look into interrogation techniques -- the ones that the police right here in the US of A use -- and all of the false confession cases out there. Really. We need to educate ourselves because these things happen far, far, FAR too often and as long as there is the perception that no one would ever say they did something they didn't do, the injustices will continue. Head games/Psychological techniques are powerful, even when physical abuse isn't used.
@blueberrypancake: I was watching something on Discovery or The History Channel, or one of those kinds of stations, that focued on the high prevalence of false confessions among young people (and Amanda Knox definitely counts as young by the show's standards). They ran videos of several police interrogations that resulted in murder confessions from teenagers, where the DNA evidence later proved them innocent. These interrogations didn't even involve physical force, BTW.
Not only are "criminals" put under extreme psychological duress, but they are usually faced with other situations during questioning. The police don't only do "threatening/aggressive questioning, gestures, and yelling." In Chicago, many innocent Black and Latino men have been BEATEN for the duration of the questioning, held some more then beaten again. Many people have confessed to crimes that they have since been exonerated from due to being beaten into a confession.
This is part of the reason why George Ryan pardoned all of the people on death row in Illinois before his term as governor was over- the system is very fucked up here and I understand how Amanda Knox could confess to something she didn't do.
@femputer: When I was in Europe I spoke w/ many travelers from all over the map who have the perception that American girls are sluts who fuck everything abroad. The most chauvanistic dudes I met were in Italy, yelled the grossest things at me, followed me, etc. I was looking at the Trevi fountain when some older man spat at my feet and called me an "American Slut". This was a decade ago mind you.
@blueberrypancake: also - look at that shit about telling her she had AIDS...I wouldn't be surprised if there were promises of supposedly much-needed medical treatment if she would just put something down on paper.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I don't know, but a good majority of the country seems annoyed by just the facts that she's American and pretty.
@maggiethecat: jesus that is awful. I really do hear the worst things about guys in Italy. Hey Italian men - our reputation as sluts is outshone only by your reputation as pigs! (I am italian if that helps me shield me from an onslaught of criticism for vilifying italian men). I think immediately of that jerking off on the train article on Jez a while back which garnered a stunning number of reports from women who were ill-treated in Italy.
@blueberrypancake: As many people have already stated, it is very common for people to falsely confess due to the dishonest police interrogation techniques. One of the most famous cases is of Michael Crowe, a then 14 year old who was accused of murdering his sister. I watched the video of parts of his interrogation in social psychology and it was heartbreaking. They seperated him from his parents, questioned him for 27 hours over a 3 day period, lied to him, refused him water, and convinced him that he must have killed his sister and blocked the memory. They also told him that if he confessed he would go to a juvenile prison, but that if he didn't, he would go to an adult prison. He confessed on camera but was later proven innocent. And all of that was without any added violence like Amanda experienced to scare her into a confession. Not to mention the added fear of being convicted in a foreign country with an unfamiliar judicial system. I would be terrified and unsurprised if I confessed after 14 hours of that.
Oh, if anyone is interested more in false confessions, there is a very interesting article about it here: [www.joshuadfoster.com] (Sorry, I'm new at commenting!)
@ConversationWithMyself: I was thinking of this story, too. I heard it on an old This American Life episode, and it was really shocking and heartbreaking.
@Grim Reaper of the Forest: really? Then you'll have the privilege and the power to see through trial shenanigans. I agree that it'd be a struggle, but if you don't serve, so moron will.
@femputer: Agreed. I just started interning the DA's office, and I hope to work as an ADA after graduating law school.
I just sat in on my first jury trial, and there were so many shades of gray and issues of witness credibility that I was pretty grateful this case went to trial before a jury. We have no doubt about the general culpability of the defendant, and that he poses a major threat to his girlfriend. However, after hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence (that could be seen in front of the jury), I think there were questions about how truthful the main eyewitness was being. The jury dismissed about half the charges, and I really think it was necessary for 12 people to determine the credibility of the witness. The DA's office tries really hard to weed out bad charges and witnesses, but we also want to protect people, so of course there is bias there, and that is why we need some impartial parties to review the evidence. Of course, only 1 out of 10 cases even go to trial, and less to a jury trial, generally because defendants know that we have good evidence and they have bad cases and it's easier to plea.
@Grim Reaper of the Forest: I always wanted to sit on a jury until I did. The two times I sat on a jury were two of the most difficult things I have ever had to do. Making the decision that somebody is guilty of a crime is an enormous weight. So is sticking to your convictions when you know there is not enough evidence. Do I want to do it again? No. Will I? Yes.
I wonder whether the kind of laws applying in the UK as to what you can say about a defendant in an English court (Scotland has its own laws) the moment they have been arrested applies in Italy? All I know is that she has been given the nickname of Foxy Knoxy, which to mind implies character assassination by media and the British press give the impression they believe she is guilty. I was so used to seeing her image and the name of the dead woman that for a while I assumed Amanda Knox was Meredith Kercher.
God damn this "foxy knoxy" nonsense. The italian media and public seem to have convicted her based on this nickname alone - which originally referred to her prowess on the field (soccer, I believe) and not to some femme fatale b.s.
@FraggleIraq: Ha! Good one. Start circulating that name! Geez.
@queen sara saturday: that is absolutely the implication that every journalist seemed to further....I hear she had this nickname since she was 12 or some other young age where a reference to promiscuity would be even more nauseating than it already is. She was quick on the field, like a fox.
Holy hell that sounds like a nightmare from all points. I don't know much about Italian civil liberties, but it does make me feel better about the U.S.'s civil protections.
@Trulymadlyme: The worst part is there is only trial a couple of days a month. And, she has to sit in the middle of the room with no lawyer by her side. Very intimidating and drawn out process.
@bluebears: @Rare Affinity: Come on. I'm not saying this shit doesn't happen. I'm saying that a system at least exists to protect an accused person's rights. Is it perfect? No. But maybe that's my reading into the whole to "form a more perfect union."
Not perfect. But at least an attempt to get closer.
I, like many, have a problem with the corruption in the American judicial and criminal systems. But there are thousands of people who are actually working their asses off, including police officers, to protect people's civil rights. This flip response shits on their work and the fact that we live in a country where the pursuit of justice is a continual, albeit imperfect, journey.
Is there corruption? Absolutely. But the legal framework in place give us the means to unroot it. That is a fantastic thing.
@Trulymadlyme: Surely the most important point between the two systems is that innocent people found guilty of murder in Italy are not put to death like in America. So of the two systems I would rather take my chances in Italy and at least be alive to fight to overturn the judgment if I were found guilty, despite being innocent, than end up on death row.
@Rare Affinity: Fun fact about the death penalty: it's oftentimes results in a defendant getting an impressive amount and caliber appellate and trial representation.
If you look at the work of the Innocence Project and the myriad of pro bono legal groups solely working on death penalty appeals and trials and compare it to the general criminal bar, you would be shocked.
The success of the death penalty bar is a good thing, but reflects equal parts wrongful convictions (which occur in all parts of the criminal system) and the vast amount of resources attributed to it. Trying to find trial and appellate help (outside of stretched public defenders) on a 20 year criminal sentence for murder? Shockingly difficult.
Like I said, imperfect. But that's partly due to the lack of resources attributed to criminal justice and people's willingness to limit pro bono work to impact cases.
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They just kept working him and working him and questioning him for hours and softening him and twisting his words and asking him, "What WOULD you have done if you'd killed her?" They asked him to practice a confession, etc. Eventually, they got him to believe he'd done it.
I don't know if you have to have a particularly "susceptible" personality for this to work, but planting false memories and encouraging false confessions happens. It seems like that may have occurred in this case.
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It is legal for the police to lie to you, mislead you, tell you they've already got all the evidence against you they need, etc. It is NOT legal for them to continue to question you if you tell them you are invoking your right to remain silent and your right to an attorney. If they continue to press you (as they so often do on cop shows) after you ask for a lawyer, anything you say *should* be excluded from the record.
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Then they watched the video of the interrogation and realized they gave her every piece of information she told them.
Why did she lie? She was up all night and exhausted. She was a victim of child abuse and domestic abuse, and the officers learned that abuse victims will often lie if they think it will placate an authority figure.
There are many reasons a young foreign student would give up and admit a crime she didn't commit if she thought it would end the interrogation.
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This whole thing has reminded me I should educate myself more about the French legal system.
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Wait, she told her mom she knew her own knife was the murder weapon?
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And agreed about wanting to know Sollecito's story...will be corroborate Amanda's? If he didn't, that would be very odd since her story doesn't implicate either of them.
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I will be surprised if she is able to beat this - whether innocent or not. I'd be surprised if she got a fir trial there from all that I have heard on the legal end.
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On top of this, I don't think the Italian justice system has removed the head prosecutor from the case even though he is currently on trial for sensationalizing and bungling a former major murder case. No conflict of interest, eh?
I will admit that it is because of this trial and the way it's been carried out that I crossed Italy off my list of countries I'd like to visit in the next 20 years. Between Berlusconi and his "rapist men are just being regular men, aww shucks" personality and this trial, I am judging another country--I know it's unfair, but I try not to talk or think of it too often so hopefully my bias will fade.
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-Knox kills Kercher in fucked-up Satanic sex-game orgy.
-Kercher gets in the way of Guede when he breaks in.
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At least that was my impression. I may be wrong.
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What do you all think?
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Very bizarre. I guess I kind of lean more towards guilty than not guilty, but I just don't know.
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On the other hand, if she was badgered during interrogation, then perhaps her alibi changed in order to give investigators what they wanted (and therefore make the interrogation stop).
All I know for sure, is that one young woman's life was cut short...
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If she didn't do it, though, I must say that I feel incredibly terrible for her. Not just because the last year of her life has been a nightmare, but because she'll always be remembered for that, it will always be the first thing in google searches, people will recall it when they're introduced at parties or she does job interviews, etc.
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But I agree that I am torn about this case. I will try to hulu the 20/20 mentioned by mfnher.
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I can only hope for the best for this girl, but I fear the Italian justice system is not the most moral system.
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Not only are "criminals" put under extreme psychological duress, but they are usually faced with other situations during questioning. The police don't only do "threatening/aggressive questioning, gestures, and yelling." In Chicago, many innocent Black and Latino men have been BEATEN for the duration of the questioning, held some more then beaten again. Many people have confessed to crimes that they have since been exonerated from due to being beaten into a confession.
This is part of the reason why George Ryan pardoned all of the people on death row in Illinois before his term as governor was over- the system is very fucked up here and I understand how Amanda Knox could confess to something she didn't do.
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As many people have already stated, it is very common for people to falsely confess due to the dishonest police interrogation techniques. One of the most famous cases is of Michael Crowe, a then 14 year old who was accused of murdering his sister. I watched the video of parts of his interrogation in social psychology and it was heartbreaking. They seperated him from his parents, questioned him for 27 hours over a 3 day period, lied to him, refused him water, and convinced him that he must have killed his sister and blocked the memory. They also told him that if he confessed he would go to a juvenile prison, but that if he didn't, he would go to an adult prison. He confessed on camera but was later proven innocent. And all of that was without any added violence like Amanda experienced to scare her into a confession. Not to mention the added fear of being convicted in a foreign country with an unfamiliar judicial system. I would be terrified and unsurprised if I confessed after 14 hours of that.
Oh, if anyone is interested more in false confessions, there is a very interesting article about it here: [www.joshuadfoster.com] (Sorry, I'm new at commenting!)
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I just sat in on my first jury trial, and there were so many shades of gray and issues of witness credibility that I was pretty grateful this case went to trial before a jury. We have no doubt about the general culpability of the defendant, and that he poses a major threat to his girlfriend. However, after hearing all the testimony and seeing all the evidence (that could be seen in front of the jury), I think there were questions about how truthful the main eyewitness was being. The jury dismissed about half the charges, and I really think it was necessary for 12 people to determine the credibility of the witness. The DA's office tries really hard to weed out bad charges and witnesses, but we also want to protect people, so of course there is bias there, and that is why we need some impartial parties to review the evidence. Of course, only 1 out of 10 cases even go to trial, and less to a jury trial, generally because defendants know that we have good evidence and they have bad cases and it's easier to plea.
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Not someone objective
Not someone who is attentive.
Not someone who is intelligent.
But someone who can be convinced to agree with them.
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@queen sara saturday: that is absolutely the implication that every journalist seemed to further....I hear she had this nickname since she was 12 or some other young age where a reference to promiscuity would be even more nauseating than it already is. She was quick on the field, like a fox.
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Not perfect. But at least an attempt to get closer.
I, like many, have a problem with the corruption in the American judicial and criminal systems. But there are thousands of people who are actually working their asses off, including police officers, to protect people's civil rights. This flip response shits on their work and the fact that we live in a country where the pursuit of justice is a continual, albeit imperfect, journey.
Is there corruption? Absolutely. But the legal framework in place give us the means to unroot it. That is a fantastic thing.
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If you look at the work of the Innocence Project and the myriad of pro bono legal groups solely working on death penalty appeals and trials and compare it to the general criminal bar, you would be shocked.
The success of the death penalty bar is a good thing, but reflects equal parts wrongful convictions (which occur in all parts of the criminal system) and the vast amount of resources attributed to it. Trying to find trial and appellate help (outside of stretched public defenders) on a 20 year criminal sentence for murder? Shockingly difficult.
Like I said, imperfect. But that's partly due to the lack of resources attributed to criminal justice and people's willingness to limit pro bono work to impact cases.