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On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
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Jeenzy
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
I am angry that the right has co-opted the words "focus on the family." We lefties have family values too. A lot of this battle is being played with words, and we need to take back some of the terms which imply all of us pro-choicers lack morals and family values. Also, the term pro-life should to extend to everyone but those convicted of murdering REAL people. Because we all are pro-life. In fact, I'd argue we're more pro-life than the right, seeing how we don't advocate or even sit around silently approving the killing of adults just so we can feel like we've saved a mass of cells. It's like me killing my oncologist because he removed a growth of cells in my body that I didn't want there.

I apologize if this rant got a little nutty, I'm just really, really frustrated with this debate.
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morninggloria
08/18/09

@Jeenzy: And, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't blue states have lower rates of divorce and other such family-splintering behavior than red states?
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clintosterholz
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Unfortunately, on this issue, there is no compromise. There's a side that's in favor of freedom, and a side that's not. Whether you view it as murder or a medical procedure, the right to get an abortion is a freedom, pure and simple, just as--crudely speaking--the right to murder is actually a restriction on our freedom. It's of course one we all agree to because we all find murder unconscionable, but it is still a limit to freedom. The point is not whether you think it's murder or whether it's medical--the point is whether you support someone's freedom to get it or not.

That is why we have no proper discourse on abortion in this country. Anti-abortion activists have pushed the issue to the procedure itself, not the freedom to get it.
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meritxell promoted this comment clintosterholz was starred clintosterholz was unstarred

meritxell: an erotic life
08/18/09

@clintosterholz: That's why I think pro-choice activists should push stronger on the "forced pregnancy" framing - for the exact reason that it focuses on the loss of freedom that the antichoice contingency wants to bury in an onslaught of "holocaust" hyperbole.
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Nariel
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
ABORTION AND THE HOLOCAUST ARE NOT THE SAME. If one more motherfucker compares them, I'm going to hunt them down, tie them in a chair, and make them listen to me yell and rant in their face about the horrors of Nazi Germany until they either agree with me or start eating their own face. Problem solved either way.
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Mafalda para Presidente promoted this comment Nariel was starred Nariel was unstarred

meritxell: an erotic life
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
In response to Crazy Daly Guy, I quote the wisdom of the bumper sticker: focus on your own damn family.
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sarrible
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
I am now launching my campaign to rid the world of the evil that is tonsillectomies. Won't someone think of all the innocent tonsils that are so callously cut out and thrown away? TONSILS ARE PEOPLE TOO.
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Maritsa
08/18/09

@sarrible: DON'T FORGET THE APPENDICES!!!!
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Memoosa
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Not precisely on topic but I need to go to an abortion clinic tomorrow to have my dead baby removed from my uterus. I'm too far along for my OB to take care of it so my options were go to the clinic for a 2-day procedure or have my OB induce labor and labor for about 20 hours to deliver a dead baby. I am pro choice and have no problem with anyone choosing an elective abortion but I wish these anti-choice people could realize that these clinics serve other purposes too.
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dirtybee
08/18/09

@Memoosa: I am so sorry. Hugs to you.
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Maritsa
08/18/09

@Memoosa: I am really sorry. Bring someone for moral support and another person to scream back at any potential protesters.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
08/18/09

@Memoosa: My heart goes out to you for what you're going through.

So called "abortion clinics" have long provided many other services to women, including pap smears and pediatric care for children. Women have to carry their toddlers through a gauntlet of hatred and violent images to get medical care just because...I don't know why. Anti-choice protesters are blinded by their single-minded misogyny, I guess.
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scootermom
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Funny how all these angry mobs at town halls on health care rant and rave about socialized medicine and government bureaucrats making medical decisions. Yet, they're perfectly happy to make decisions for pregnant women and make sure they can't access abortion services, or in some cases, even access to contraceptives.

My contempt for these asswipes knows no bounds.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
After the last couple of weeks reading Jezebel, I now know more about performing abortions than I really wanted to know. And I'd still probably have one.

How does that factor into his "informed consent?"
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ZombieEmpress
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
The reason why I believe it is crucial to keep abortion legal is that I am positive women will be unable to obtain abortions in the case of rape, incest, and health issues, if it is outlawed. How will a woman prove that she has been raped- after the prep as been convicted? The low conviction rate combined with a the length of time it can take to convict someone guarantees a woman will have to carry the pregnancy to term. And what happens if she does not report the rape? What if a woman is sexually assualted by a close family member, becomes pregnant but is uncomfortable reporting it? Who gets to decide wheter a woman's life is significantly at risk to warrant and abortion? The fact that Congress refuses to use precise medical language in the abortion debate (partial-birth abortion doesn't exist) makes me wonder if a doctor's opinion will be involved, at all.

It sounds nice when anti-choice advocates say they want to ban abortion except for rape, incest and when the mother's life is in danger but that plan is not feasible. Just because you are pregnant, does not mean the government gets to control your body for the next nine months.
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Lin-Z [linguist on duty] promoted this comment Edited by ZombieEmpress at 08/18/09 5:14 PM ZombieEmpress was starred ZombieEmpress was unstarred

ides
08/18/09

@ZombieEmpress:
But why split hairs? If a life is a life, then an embryo conceived through rape or incest is just as innocent and valuable as one created through consensual sex. When people start talking about why rape and incest are different from consensual sex, they're not talking about the sanctity of life AT ALL. They're talking about whether or not it's okay for women to have sex. I don't agree at all with the people who say there should be no exceptions but life of the mother, but I respect that they're at least consistent in their beliefs.

That, to me, is why the government can't make restrictions on when abortion is appropriate and when it isn't. Either women get to live their lives as they please or they don't.
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portia_sue promoted this comment ides was starred ides was unstarred

ZombieEmpress
08/18/09

@ides: Exactly. Abortion is filled with gray areas that would be hard to legislate. Let women make their own choice and deal with its consequences. (It still angers me that one of the reasons Scalia wanted to ban abortion is because some women regret getting one.)
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Edited by ZombieEmpress at 08/18/09 7:55 PM ZombieEmpress was starred ZombieEmpress was unstarred

onestrawplz
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
"Risk of abortion"? It's one of the safest medical procedures one could have. Let's talk about the risks associated with giving birth...it's much riskier/deadlier than having an abortion.

And seriously? Please stop comparing abortion to the Holocaust. The Holocaust was a systematic murder of millions of innocent, living, breathing, SENTIENT human beings. Abortion kills an embryo/fetus, sure, but get real...no one is sticking 8 month old fetuses into ovens and gassing them to death. The comparison makes me want to vomit.
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lyra31
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Okay, as someone who is anti-abortion but pro-choice (legally speaking), here are a few talking points for trying to compromise with pro-lifers:
(1) DON'T mention anything about a woman's choice. This will never sway anyone to your point of view and will immediately shut down the conversation. Pro-lifers believe that any woman who is pregnant through consensual sex made her choice when she had sex. End of story.
(2) If you want to bring up the choice issue, ask about this scenario: A 12-year-old girl is raped and pregnant. She is having horrible psychological and physical problems because of this rape. Carrying the fetus to full term will likely cause the psychological scarring to be so horrendous that she will never be able to lead a normal life. Is that fair? Hopefully, if the person you're talking to has a heart, they will admit that it is not. Thus,
(3) If we outlaw abortions, do you still want a rape victim like this girl to have to carry a fetus to term? No? So what's the option? Outlaw all abortion except in the case of rape? What happens when every Sally, Jane, and Mary who wants an abortion claims she was raped? The ramifications for our medical and legal systems are huge.
This line of thinking is what caused me to believe that even though I believe abortion is wrong, I don't want the government to make it illegal.
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Flackette Goes Retro promoted this comment lyra31 was starred lyra31 was unstarred

l'américaine française
08/18/09

@lyra31: well, I believe another angle to the "choice" argument is the need to allow for the possibility that not every person thinks like you - thus, you should have all the options available for others.
For example, whether or not I'm anti-abortion personally does not even factor into my political support for pro-choice legislation. I think people should choose what they think is right for them - thus, multiple choices should be available to everyone.
In short: person 1 does not have a right to legislate person 2's action based on the first person's personal beliefs.
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Flackette Goes Retro promoted this comment

Flackette Goes Retro
08/18/09

@lyra31: While I see what you're talking about as a rhetorical strategy, I think pro-choice people have to be careful about leaving out the very important element of...choice. If we give that up, we may never get it back as a talking point.
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lyra31
08/18/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: I don't think you have to leave out the element of choice, just phrase it differently. The problem is that many pro-lifers look at abortion like murder: Is society (including government) responsible for stopping murders? Yes, and the personal choice of the murderer is null and void. If you go into a conversation with "choice" guns blazing, pro-lifers are going to put up their defenses and won't listen. Trust me, I've been on the pro-life side in conversations like these. But if you go in saying, "Okay, I understand that you believe abortion is morally wrong. But think about these things that would happen if it was completely illegal." Will you convince people that every woman should be able to choose an abortion? No. But will every woman be able to choose an abortion? Yes. And isn't that what's most important to you?
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ZombieEmpress
08/18/09

@lyra31: I stated this in my comment above, so I'll summarize here. If abortion is illegal, it will be impossible for women to get abortions in the case of rape, incest, and if there life is in danger. Who gets to decide if she can get an abortion? So we need to make sure that all women have the choice to terminate a pregnancy.
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portia_sue promoted this comment ZombieEmpress was starred ZombieEmpress was unstarred

Zombie Ms. Skittles
08/18/09

@lyra31: The best argument I ever heard "for" abortion to a pro-lifer/anti-choicer was basically if abortion is murder, then every miscarriage is a potential murder. Who will be put in charge of deciding if a miscarriage was intentional? Could a woman who over-exerted herself and had a miscarriage be charged with manslaughter? Would sitting in the front seat of a car be reckless endangerment? Will have to traumatize the mother of a wanted fetus who accidentally miscarries by investigating her to make sure she didn't do anything to cause it? Taking it to the next logical extreme, every menstrual cycle could possibly be evidence of a crime! What if you didn't know you were pregnant and did something which caused you to miscarry? Granting a fetus personhood creates a need for the government to start getting deeply involved in the lives of its citizens.
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Maritsa
08/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: The assholes who give pregnant women the side-eye for drinking coffee would LOVE it, now they could call the cops to report a crime in progress. "Officer, she's drinking a latte, come quick!!"
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lyra31
08/18/09

@ZombieEmpress: I agree 100 percent. That is a really good way of putting it.
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lyra31
08/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I really like this! I don't think abortion is murder (even though I think it's morally wrong), and this helps me understand why the idea that it was murder never sat well with me. Thanks :)
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Jo Aage
08/18/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I was born in 1970. About a year prior--remember, this is before abortion was legal--my mom had a fairly late miscarriage.

She was *refused care in the ER* until her case became critical enough that they *had* to do something. Why? Because the doctors were afraid that if she'd tried to self-abort, they could be held liable for "helping" --ie, stopping her hemorrhage with a D & C.

Eventually, one doc decided to hell with it, and did the D & C. He became my mom's OB/GYN, and then mine, until he retired. Ironically enough, he was performing illegal, safe abortions at the time, at that very hospital, and the local authorities were looking the other way.

THIS is what happens when abortion is illegal. My mom is/was an educated, upper-middle-class white woman with a professor for a husband, and could not receive medical care because of the fear of prosecution that the doctors had.

We focus a lot on the knitting-needle, coat-hanger angle, but THIS is what happens: Every complication of pregnancy or pregnancy loss becomes a potential crime, with all the implications thereof.
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picassobear
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
When are pro-lifers going to stop comparing abortion to the Holocaust and genocide. No they are not the same thing. Also, stop yelling at me every time I go into the DC Holocaust museum to morn, that supporting abortion is supporting the Holocaust. It is fucking disrespectful to everyone who lost relatives.
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Flackette Goes Retro promoted this comment picassobear was starred picassobear was unstarred

onestrawplz
08/18/09

@picassobear: Ah, jinx. That is fucking disrespectful. They should not be allowed to protest at a Holocaust memorial...I bet not one of those protestors lost a relative to the Nazis. That's pathetic, and I hope the people who are evil enough to compare abortion to the Holocaust come to light and realize how stupid and utterly disgraceful they are.
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ZombieEmpress
08/18/09

@onestrawplz: It's like the church that protests abortions at solideir's funerals because they died "fighting for a country that supports abortion." Stop using others tragedies to advance your political beliefs.
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onestrawplz promoted this comment ZombieEmpress was starred ZombieEmpress was unstarred

onestrawplz
08/18/09

@ZombieEmpress: WTF??? That actually happens? Christ on a cracker, just when you thought people couldn't get any more ridiculous...
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ZombieEmpress
08/18/09

@onestrawplz: The Westboro Baptist Church, of Topeka, Kan. hold signs saying "Thank God for Dead Soldiers" at funerals because God "struck them down for defending a country that supported homosexuality". I thought I had read that they were also protesting abortions but I think I might be wrong. Either way its fucked up. This church is also behind the "God Hates Fags" signs and a website with the same name. Thankfully, there is a wonderful veterans group called "Patriot Riders" who come to the funerals (at the request of the family) and create a shield around the family from the protesters with their motorcycles. It just disgusts me that people will be so insensitive and use others's tragedies to push their own political message. Have some respect!
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cantankasaurus rex
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
"For a nuanced view on the abortion debate, Daly quotes Pastor Rick Warren"

yeah, he lost me riiiiiiiiiiiight there.
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GayRobotsRUS promoted this comment cantankasaurus rex was starred

Lizard in the Wires - Please, call it hamburger time.
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Why can't the Godwin's law be applied to regular journalism? The second Hitler comes into a discussion where he has no business being the interview is over and the person should be blacklisted until they can prove they are no longer a menace to historical analogies.
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morninggloria
08/18/09

In reply to On Abortion, Right And Left Agree That Compromise Sucks
Let's develop the technology to allow women to abort by thinking really hard about how they don't want a baby.
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lalaland13
08/18/09

@morninggloria: In the South, we've been doing that for years. It's an evolutionary (uh-oh) response to being faced with fucktards outside every single Planned Parenthood, even the ones where they're only giving whores Pap smears instead of abortions.

A really fun parlor game is to go to the clinic, squint real hard, start moaning and scream "Deliver me from these fetus, Lucifer!"
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Flackette Goes Retro
08/18/09

@lalaland13: My local PP is directly across the street from my therapist (a wine shop is on the other corner - one stop shopping for us sluts with issues!). I keep hoping to spot a protester there so I can give them the stink-eye, but haven't seen any. Of course, this branch doesn't even do abortions, so maybe the protesters are bored by it.
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Edited by Flackette Goes Retro at 08/18/09 5:05 PM

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