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New York, 8:01 PM
Tue Nov 24
62 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Dsmvwl  Admin  Promote to frontpage Approve user Ban user ×
    Image of ArtfulSlinger ArtfulSlinger
    12:04 PM

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    Sadly, they don't like all female stories, just ones with enough buzz or fanatics behind it.

    'Whip It' did NO where near these kinds of numbers and sadly it seems the worse the movie, in the case of New Moon, the bigger the female audience. Im hoping that Hollywood will look at this and say, "Oh we need to get more females behind the scenes so we can develop better films for them", but what it will probably mean is about two - three more adaptations of YA series on vampires, which will eventually kill the whole genre.
     Reply
    ArtfulSlinger was starred ArtfulSlinger was unstarred
    Image of KATE! KATE!
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    curious headline, considering the vast majority of the twilight-related content on jezebel has been dismissive of or condescending towards twilight fangirls.
     Reply
    KATE! was starred KATE! was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    You know what grinds my gears? How every time there's a Jez article about how women are marginal in movies, WOMEN fall all over themselves to establish how much they prefer dude-centric fare like Star Trek and Zombieland to chick-tacular crap. So what? Not every movie about women is an insulting romantic comedy(not that there aren't good romantic comedies out there) and everyone already knows that women will see movies about men. It's beside the point of the article and it adds nothing to the discussion.
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @Hana Maru: I think you might be my new favorite person.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of Kayleigh R. Carter Kayleigh R. Carter
    11/23/09

    @Hana Maru: I ALSO HATE PEOPLE WITH OTHER OPINIONS. ARR RARRR RARRR.

    They have different tastes, so they stand up for them. Has nothing to do with men.
     Reply
    shoroko promoted this comment Kayleigh R. Carter was starred Kayleigh R. Carter was unstarred
    Image of shoroko shoroko
    12:02 AM

    @Kayleigh R. Carter: The point wasn't about taste. And yes, it does have something to do with men. This article was about the success of films that are marketed toward and primarily feature women (in the latter, I'd concede that Twilight has as much to do with its male characters as it does Bella Swan, but that's not really the point). Saying "I'm a woman and I like Star Trek/Transformers/etc." doesn't have much to do with this because filmmakers already know that. The film industry knows that women will see movies that are primarily about men.

    But they apparently aren't even sure there's a market for movies that are primarily about women.
     Reply
    shoroko was starred shoroko was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    05:36 AM

    @Kayleigh R. Carter: "Has nothing to do with men."

    This is like the sexist version of "I don't see color"
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of Raised-byHeathens Raised-byHeathens
    09:51 AM

    @Hana Maru: I think my biggest problem with that is that so many female centric movies try to sell an idea or specific version of woman hood- the princess, the sassy love interest , the spunky non-conformist, and male characters are still just written as characters. And yes, I prefer movies with characters rather than tropes. So, I trend to prefer dude movies.Until a real change happens, you're going to get hazy answers about dude movies from chicks.
     Reply
    Hana Maru promoted this comment Raised-byHeathens was starred Raised-byHeathens was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    03:17 PM

    @Raised-byHeathens: Excluding princesses, those are things you won't actually see in female-centric movies, but you will find in male-centric ones. A lot of smart women buy into stereotypes about female-centric movies being pandering crap, so they don't go to see them. They stereotype all female-centric movies as being like Bride Wars, while considering each male-centric movie on its apparent merits.

    In our society we value men and things that are associated with men. That's why women get praised for being "genderblind" and doing guy stuff. Girl stuff has an automatic stigma of being frivolous and stupid, and women aren't immune to that impression. The real change is already happening, and you're missing out.

    At any rate, these anecdotes still add nothing to the discussion, except to clog it with a bunch of identical pointless comments.

    #tips
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of Rooo sez BISH PLZ Rooo sez BISH PLZ
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    On my more cynical days, I sometimes think they don't really give a crap if lady-targeted movies out-revenue male-targeted movies by, like, a billion girl-dollars to every one boy-dollar.

    Sometimes I think they just say "movies for women don't make money" as an excuse to keep making only what they want to make, and silencing women who try to speak up about what they want to see.

    These men don't want to be bothered with actual facts.
     Reply
    Edited by Rooo sez BISH PLZ at 11/23/09 3:28 PM Rooo sez BISH PLZ was starred Rooo sez BISH PLZ was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru Hana Maru
    11/23/09

    @Rooo sez BISH PLZ: I agree. How many times has a woman-centric movie been wildly successful, despite being barely marketed, and been taken to prove that women will buy movie tickets? Mamma Mia, SATC, now New Moon. It's always treated as a fluke by the studio boys club.
     Reply
    Hana Maru was starred Hana Maru was unstarred
    Image of salthegeek salthegeek
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    Now will someone please give Joss Whedon money to do a Wonder Woman movie.
     Reply
    salthegeek was starred salthegeek was unstarred
    Image of Ninja Robot Pirate Ninja Robot Pirate
    11/23/09

    @salthegeek: I'd give him money not to make a Wonder Woman movie.
     Reply
    salthegeek promoted this comment Ninja Robot Pirate was starred Ninja Robot Pirate was unstarred
    Image of salthegeek salthegeek
    11/23/09

    @Ninja Robot Pirate: Given that I kinda disklike superheroes comics, but like superhero movies. Whedon could make it half way decent , given that the last rumors had Meagan Fox as the lead.
     Reply
    salthegeek was starred salthegeek was unstarred
    Image of PilgrimSoul PilgrimSoul
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    I'm sort of resistant to the notion that it is in any way liberating to have consumer culture respond to women if consumer culture is here to sell us the same old shit about true love and we're all princesses inside blah de blah. I guess I don't equate buying power with liberation.
     Reply
    PilgrimSoul was starred PilgrimSoul was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    11/23/09

    @PilgrimSoul: But Precious and Julie & Julia aren't about the same old shit. They truly are about women becoming empowered. As for Princess and the Frog, the princess fairy tales don't bother me because they are something I loved in my childhood. I associated with Snow White because we had the same hair color so she made me feel special. I hope Tiana can actually do that for many children.
     Reply
    Edited by Lymed at 11/23/09 1:58 PM Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of Ms.Moneypenny Ms.Moneypenny
    11/23/09

    @PilgrimSoul: This is my issue as well. The success of something like Precious is in a slightly different category. But New Moon and Princess and the Frog are not promoting anything new or empowering. Instead, they're feeding on tired tropes or fanatical tendencies. Part of me also feels that with New Moon, the fervor of these fans and the way the media is covering it (people begging the actors to bite them, moms and daughters having crushes on characters) is more mocking than anything. It's like Hollywood is sitting back and saying "Look at these nutters! Can't wait to take all their money! Let's churn out some more stuff for them to buy!" I don't see much to celebrate in that.
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment Ms.Moneypenny was starred Ms.Moneypenny was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Ms.Moneypenny: The Princess and the Frog is hugely empowering on one major level: it's telling little black girls (and big ones, too) that they're just as deserving of a cultural touchstone as anyone else. You can debate the merits of said touchstone, but it's still a big deal.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Ms.Moneypenny Ms.Moneypenny
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: And I think that the diversity issue is the best part of Princess and the Frog, but WHY does it have to be a princess? Why can't she be a super hero? A detective? Brain surgeon? You're eliminating one stereotype but keeping any number of others. It's a step in the right direction, but I wish there were a few more steps.
     Reply
    Ms.Moneypenny was starred Ms.Moneypenny was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @PilgrimSoul: Neither do I, but the 4 movies mentioned are actually pretty diverse. That one is a love story and the other is a princess story (and those will most likely be the biggest draws) is something to look at...but it's not all that's there. The fact that a movie like Precious is doing so well is actually a pretty big deal.

    Plus, while New Moon has legitimately problematic themes, the genre of it is actually important. It's supernatural romance with a bit of horror. It's not a romcom. The fact that it's a genre fiction actually gives me more hope, because reading and viewing that sort of stuff usually leads to more varied reading and viewing tastes. At least from what I've seen, I've no data to back that up.

    And the Frog Princess, sure, the Princess thing is there...and I truly wish we'd get better about that culturally as something we ram down little girls throats. But. It's also really progressive in other ways. So.

    The reality is, no movie made my mainstream Hollywood is going to be as full of nuance as we'd like. We should always push back, of course, but we shouldn't ignore it when they do get something right.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Dream Pantomime Dream Pantomime
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: I've loved "princess movies" since I was in diapers and will be at The Princess and the Frog opening night with bells on. I don't see what's so harmful about the whole princess fixation as long as these princesses are full-fledged empowering characters, not just plastic bimbettes in pretty dresses (which is why I hate the Princess Line though I love the movies) bent on marrying princes. From the sounds of it, Tiana is a working-class girl determined to open her own restaurant. That's awesome. I think she's only a "princess" in the sense that she dresses up like one for Mardi Gras. Yes, she does fall in love with a prince, but that's hardly her only desire or purpose in life.
     Reply
    Hana Maru promoted this comment Dream Pantomime was starred Dream Pantomime was unstarred
    Image of girlscoutcookie is back from hiatus girlscoutcookie is back from hiatus
    11/23/09

    @Dream Pantomime: "From the sounds of it, Tiana is a working-class girl determined to open her own restaurant. That's awesome. I think she's only a "princess" in the sense that she dresses up like one for Mardi Gras."

    Okay, thank you for posting that, because ever since I heard about this movie I have been struggling mightily to understand how she can be a princess if she's from America. I mean, seriously, it has confounded everyone I know. Somebody even thought her NAME might be Princess, just to keep her in the Disney line, albeit with Palin-y logic.It makes so much more sense now.
     Reply
    girlscoutcookie is back from hiatus was starred girlscoutcookie is back from hiatus was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Dream Pantomime: I think the princess thing tends to get lumped into the "girls like pink" and other "girly" things idea, which can be pretty stifling. It conjures up very specific ideas of gender roles, femininity, and girlhood. And the lack of variety of female characters who aren't princesses in the Disneyverse is problematic.

    But like you said, if the character themselves is more progressive then we start to change what the princess thing is all about. And that's a good thing, since I highly doubt we're going to somehow get it out of the pop cultural. I think we made it harmful by associating it with lack of agency (Cinderella, Snow White), lack of character (Sleeping Beauty), and being the go-to for a lot of female characters.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of SweetIo SweetIo
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    I clicked over to the Newsweek article (saying that Princess Tiana has an interracial relationship) and I don't buy that it's necessarily true - the prince appears to be Creole, which implies he is a POC, though perhaps a more diverse background. I also found the article in general somewhat odd. It encouraged interracial relationships for black women, but in a way that made it sound like black men who had interracial relationships were kinda screwing the whole thing up to begin with so they had no choice. (Sorry for sorta kinda being off topic)
     Reply
    SweetIo was starred SweetIo was unstarred
    Image of pesematology pesematology
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    Actually, I don't buy movie tickets. And if I did, I would have gone to see Star Trek.
     Reply
    pesematology was starred pesematology was unstarred
    Image of tobesthewonderdog tobesthewonderdog
    11/23/09

    @pesematology: you should have, i saw it at the drive-in movie with two close friends and my dog and it was one of the best experiences i've had in the past two years
     Reply
    pesematology promoted this comment tobesthewonderdog was starred tobesthewonderdog was unstarred
    Image of pesematology pesematology
    11/23/09

    @tobesthewonderdog: i didn't go see it because i'm working on watching every star trek series and movie in chronological order, and i'm not up to the present yet :(
     Reply
    pesematology was starred pesematology was unstarred
    Image of tobesthewonderdog tobesthewonderdog
    11/23/09

    @pesematology: oo well that's a noble ambition i wish you luck!

    #tips
     Reply
    tobesthewonderdog was starred tobesthewonderdog was unstarred
    Image of pesematology pesematology
    09:47 AM

    @pesematology: oh and i mean 20th-century-earth-chronological, not by star date. i considered doing it by star date but i wanted to see the unfolding of the cultural representations as the decades advanced.
     Reply
    pesematology was starred pesematology was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    The thing is, I saw New Moon this weekend with a fellow lady. The theater was chock full o' ladies and their boyfriends/husbands/sons who were too young to say no. While we were watching the previews, this fellow lady and I were planning other movies we might want to go see when they came out. From me purchasing a New Moon ticket, they may have actually attracted me to 3 other movies I probably wouldn't have seen (including The Lovely Bones and Brothers. They've almost seduced me into going to see that new Nicholas Sparks movie just because they're using a Taylor Swift song in the preview). By actually targeting me as a demographic for even one movie, they're pulling me in to go see other movies.

    I said this when Titanic was out, but 13 year old girls are probably one of the strongest demographics to market to. They're more likely to have spending money from babysitting and such than boys their age, they have zero in the way of expenses (ie no gas money), and they have absolutely no shame about their squealing fangirlism. I should know, I WAS a 13 year old girl. They buy merchandise and go see movies repeatedly in theater with friends and then talk the movies up to their other friends.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of quatrevingtquatre quatrevingtquatre
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    That Italy movie with the Taylor Swift song in the trailer had me swooning 20 seconds in.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles promoted this comment quatrevingtquatre was starred quatrevingtquatre was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @quatrevingtquatre: The girl I was with and I were both sitting there singing along. The thing is, I hate Nick Sparks and all his books, but damned if I don't love the lead actress and Taylor Swift...
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of quatrevingtquatre quatrevingtquatre
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    I <3 Amanda Seyfreid, I am pumped for "Big Love" to return. And seriously, I downloaded "Love Story" when I got home from the movie. And then *ahem* re-watched the trailer.
     Reply
    quatrevingtquatre was starred quatrevingtquatre was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: 13-year-old girls also grow up to be 33-year-old women who buy super-uber collector's-edition DVDs of movies they loved when they were 13. It's a very consistent profit stream, so why the hell is Hollywood ignoring so many of them?
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @quatrevingtquatre: Seriously, all I need for my perfect movie is a shirtless hot guy and a Taylor Swift song.

    Everything else is negotiable.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of Ms.RantyPants Ms.RantyPants
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: PLUS these tween fangirls see the movie multiple times!

    My best friend was one of these crazy 13-year-old Titanicards - she made me see it three times and she saw it 12 times.

    12 x 10 - 120 dollars!!!
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles promoted this comment Ms.RantyPants was starred Ms.RantyPants was unstarred
    Image of jenilane jenilane
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: I'd like to clarify that there are 2 Amanda Seyfried movies coming out. One is "Letters to Juliet" which was the Italy one with the Taylor Swift song. The other one is "Dear John" which is the Nicholas Sparks one co-starring Channing Tatum.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles promoted this comment jenilane was starred jenilane was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @jenilane: Oh god damn, now I have to go see two sappy romance movies...
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: It's so weird to me that Hollywood refuses to acknowledge that fanboys are NOT the only people who will dedicate themselves to a fandom. I would even say woman are more likely to continue to love the things they loved as a teen well into adulthood, and be even more consistently loyal to it. I know grown women who still collect unicorn everything because they fell in love with them as a 5 year old.

    I have bought every version of Labyrinth they've even put on DVD. I own a Ludo doll and a Doorknocker. Lord of the Rings? I bought the super extended versions with the collectibles, Treebeard figure, jewelry, maps that I have framed and put up in my house, and I have zero shame about that at all. Even though LOTR is pretty male centric, the products were really well thought out.

    I think there was a Jez article awhile back about how no one knows what women over 25 want, so they don't bother marketing to us in terms of films. It's really not that complicated. We want films where we exist. Where characters like us are not always The Girlfriend, with no other purpose than sitting in as the token vagina.

    Hence why so many non-teen women are seeing New Moon, among lots of other reasons. Whatever else I may think of the story, it's from Bella's perspective. And we really don't get movies from the girls perspective very often.
     Reply
    Edited by tiredfairy at 11/23/09 2:42 PM tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: I personally think it's because so much of Hollywood is male perspective driven, they don't get that women are every bit as obsessive fan geeky as men. When you offer them something that let's them in. When you exclude them, of COURSE they don't want any part of it. And then it becomes convenient to say "well, women don't like x". No, you've just made sure less women are likely to want to participate in something that has so much disdain for them.

    Or, even when something does in fact have a strong female fan base, they pretend they don't.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: That's a really good point. Thinking back, almost every movie I've ever truly loved has been from the perspective of the female character. Bridget Jones, Clueless, Legally Blonde, Mean Girls, Terminators 1 & 2...

    Honestly, I can't begrudge the uber fangirls Twilight. I may never have been one of those girls lining up for miles and miles to see Titanic, but I Get It. They finally feel like their voices are being heard in some way, and Stephanie Meyer is speaking their language (the language of ZOMG HOT GUYZZZZZ!!). It's one of the reasons I took the decidedly UNpopular opinion on the internet that Twilight didn't actually ruin ComicCon, even before I'd seen the first movie or knew anything about it beyond what I'd read on FanWank. The stories themselves may be stupid, but the fans aren't.

    And if we're going to start critiquing fandom based entirely on the quality of the story, Star Wars is just another coming of age story and is completely ripped from various myths and the special effects aren't that good anymore anyway. Avatar is Dances with Wolves In Space but with a slightly different beginning.

    Yeah, I said it.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: You're absolutely right, which is why I've found myself in the same position over all the male nerd entitlement that simply oozed all over the Twilight outrage over Comicon. It was so, so, so clearly sexism. Because Twilight and its fans couldn't possibly care less if dudes like the stories, think they're good, or relate. This is for -them- and they feel included in something they can obsessively geek the fuck out over. Since so many fandoms are male centric, women have either been ignored or excluded. Mostly for not nerding out the way guys do.

    Plus, Comicon was a giant mess well before Twilight happened. It's just incredibly hypocritical and disingenuous to claim otherwise.

    And yeah, if you're going to bitch about Twilight's story quality or obsessive fans, then please explain to me how Transformers or Star Wars are, omg, so much better. I love Star Wars, but give me a break. It's Space Opera. And if you're allowed to dress up a storm trooper, they're allowed to dress up like a vampire.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: Yeah, I mean, if you're going to complain about not being able to get tickets because ZOMG someone else got into line ahead of you? STFU. Like, 90% of fandom is being ahead of people in lines. The sheer and utter hypocrisy of complaining because somebody else was a bigger fan than you is ASTOUNDING.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    I honestly and truly think it's because it was girls and a girl fandom/story. None of them would have complained the same way about any of that for any of their "acceptable" read: malecentric, fandoms.

    Plus, it's just not true. Panel camping and long lines have been going on for years. I've been doing to SDCC for 3 years now, 2 of which were before Twilight. Same line issue and panel camping. And I heard about it all 8 years I've worked in comics. It's just not new, and it's ridiculous to claim Twilight ruined Comicon.

    But because they're bigger, most obsessive fans in certain ways, some folks are freaking out. It's ridiculous.

    I've hear this idiocy this year because the 4 day tickets for Comicon 2010 are already sold out. Like it's all the Twilighters buying these tickets, and so no one will be on the floor buying stuff. They scheduled all the Twilight stuff in one day last year, so unless they're doing big events all 4 days of con, that's just not true. Plus, most people go for the movie stuff anyway. That's been true for a decade at least.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: But! If those icky girls who like Twilight are there, then the "real"/"regular" fans can't go!!!! Don't you know how TRAGIC~! that is?
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    Since I'm one of those female professionals/fans that's been working in the industry for most of a decade, but who doesn't exist, or is regularly excluded from the boys club a lot of the time, I am awash in the tragedy. It's always sad when privileged group gets testy about being excluded from something, after they've been doing it for years.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: But won't someone think of the poor, marginalized white men? There are girls in their clubhouse, y'all! And they're not even 18 year old sexy coeds in skimpy costumes! This cannot stand.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: Right? If they're not in a Slave Leia costume and conventionally attractive, they need to get the fuck out.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: It's amazing how "TITS OR GTFO" can really explain everything that's wrong with fandom so concisely.

    Also, I found a really awesome article the other day about how part of the reason dudes hate Twilight and R.Pattz is that ladies treat R.Pattz like a GIRL! By which I mean, they objectify him and watch him in movies just because he looks good, and that's a reason we consider valid for watching Megan Fox, not for watching a GUY.
     Reply
    Edited by Zombie Ms. Skittles at 11/23/09 4:31 PM Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    Ugh, seriously.

    That sounds about right. I think there's also the fact that R. Pattz and even Taylor are "pretty" boys. And a lot of the female fantasies around them are homoerotic. It's catering big time to women's fantasies and boy howdy does that seem to work some fella's up. The exclusion factor really seems to bug them. To which I can only say: Welcome to the Female Experience in Popular Fiction.

    The man candy part is definitely the lionshare, I think. Men shouldn't be objectified, of course. I'm heard some really horrible stories about fan stuff with R. Pattz. But I think it never even occurred to some dudes that women can be sexually aggressive when they really want to be. And that this lets them safely enjoy their own fantasies without having to deal with being objectified themselves. I think that's especially true for teen girls, who are so sexualized in our culture, I'm not surprised they're embracing this.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @tiredfairy: See, I don't particularly LIKE Twilight (the movie, never read the books, don't plan to) but New Moon almost made me cream my panties just from the total over the top sexiness. It was CLEARLY all about enticing the female viewer and you know what? I don't get enticed enough. They don't make porn for me and they don't usually make movies designed to arouse me. The last time I got aroused from a movie was 300 (the last time before that was Troy). If they made awesome feminist movies that also involved lots of half naked hot guys being sexy, I would totally go see them. But they don't, so my choices are New Moon or nothing. Given that option, I will take New Moon and I will not feel guilty for it.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles:
    My main objections to Twilight are really all the result of my being a story geek. I edit stories for a living so some things just bother me. And Twilight's got lots to bother, even if you ignore all the tropes, and just concentrate on form stuff like narrative and plot consistency. However, I don't expect most people to care about that kind of thing.

    This is why I loved Jennifer's Body, and why I think it didn't do well after it was marketed to men. It was absolutely not for them at all. It was so incredibly girl perspective centric, it was like watching a really twisted version of some of my HS friendships. The lack of movies aimed at telling stories women want to see, whether it's man candy, or just about us and our experiences, is really depressing.

    I think a whole lot of the appeal of Twilight is actually Bella's complacency. Because I think she is, as a character, way closer to how most girls actually feel in terms of agency. So it's a lot easier to project themselves onto her and identify with her.

    Add to that the adolescent intensity of her romance, and the adoration of two sexy boys, and you've pretty much got a perfect, hot, cocktail. Because they're the eye candy, and it's "safe" to be Bella in a certain kind of way.

    I would Star Trek to the awesome man candy movie list. And I swear, that was deliberate in the casting of Kirk and Spock. You don't cast guys that fucking hot if you're only trying to appeal to hetero men.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of hortense hortense
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    The success of New Moon, however, makes me worry that "women's films" will automatically equal "films about teenagers," which is bad news for older actresses looking for roles that go beyond "somebody's mom."
     Reply
    hortense was starred hortense was unstarred
    Image of wrapped in plastic wrapped in plastic
    11/23/09

    @hortense: Or that it will automatically equal "romances".
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment wrapped in plastic was starred wrapped in plastic was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @hortense: Did you see the previews for that new Meryl Streep movie, speaking of actresses not being someone's mom? It actually looks like a cute little rom com.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of JoaquinPhoenix's Hairstylist JoaquinPhoenix's Hairstylist
    11/23/09

    @hortense: not to mention the female lead of that movie was a terrible character! If "woman movies" mean more passive Bella characters we would be better off without them.
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment JoaquinPhoenix's Hairstylist was starred JoaquinPhoenix's Hairstylist was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @hortense: Yeah, the whole Twilight phenomenon is sort of the definition of a Pyrrhic victory in a lot of ways. Yeah, okay, we're proving that women will watch movies that clearly cater to them as an audience...and that aren't fluffy romcoms. That we do, in fact, like genre fiction is a big one. And that we have a lot of money to spend if you actually tell a story with a female lead.

    But, it also indicates that romance really is something women want in large numbers, that women are okay with passive female characters, and that maybe women don't care so much about the actual quality of the story as we do ab ratio.

    Which puts us at about on par with a lot of the dumber action movies that show some boobs and have stuff explode.

    I mean, I'll take Twilight over The Ugly Truth...but I still hate that that's the choice a lot of the time. Which is why it's discouraging to see movies like Whip It! or Jennifer's Body do poorly...because Twilight is in no way a better story, but it clearly appeals to a much larger audience.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    For the life of me, I don't understand why Hollywood is so slow to get this concept. Highest-grossing* film of all time? Titanic. Most profitable movie of all time, give or take? Dirty Dancing. Why? Eleventeen billion repeat viewings of both, almost all by teenage girls. Given how formulaic and cautious the big studios are, it makes no sense that they wouldn't have caught on to a very simple formula:

    Hot guy, preferably shirtless at some point, in slightly sexually threatening but ultimately safe romantic situation + identifiable female character + visual spectacle = ENORMOUS PROFIT.

    But apparently they only clue in once a decade.

    *adjusted for inflation, sixth-highest grossing
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 11/23/09 1:13 PM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of maneki neko maneki neko
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: It's hard to believe, but in the 40s and 50s common wisdom was that women were the ones who bought movie tickets and who picked which movies they'd see with their men friends, so movies were marketed towards women.

    What's created the problem we have now is that since the 1970s and Jaws studios have been stuck believing that young men are the holy grail for ticket sales and they do not want to do anything that could possibly alienate that section of the market. And to them, having a female lead character or a film that deals with women's issues in any way will jeopardize their male audience. Women will see lots of testosterone-driven crap but popular perception (and in my experience, reality) is that men won't go see films targeted at women.

    Hopefully, these movies will convince the studios what we've known for a long time, which is that women frequently buy more movie tickets than men do.
     Reply
    Edited by maneki neko at 11/23/09 1:34 PM maneki neko was starred maneki neko was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: Oh damn you mentioning that math formula. Now I want to go see New Moon again.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @maneki neko: Yep. That's pretty much what I said downthread as well. The studios fell all over themselves to get the rights to Gone With the Wind back in the day, and with good reason.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of maneki neko maneki neko
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: Just goes to show why so many of us like old Hollywood flicks so much, rather than the stuff that's coming out now.
     Reply
    maneki neko was starred maneki neko was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: See! Math is easy!
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of ozu ozu
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: "Most profitable movie of all time, give or take? Dirty Dancing."

    I think it's actually Deep Throat.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment ozu was starred ozu was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: I'll be honest, you could subtract the female lead and the visual spectacle and I'd still have enjoyed New Moon. Anyone wanna go with me to see it again?
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @ozu: That depends on whether you actually believe that Deep Throat grossed $600M, which is up for major debate. (It definitely only cost $25K to make). While it was widely released for a porn film, it was shown on relatively few screens in comparison to a major mainstream movie. However, most of those theaters charged a lot more for tickets, so it gets complicated fast. I can't find any sources online that cite actual numbers and/or ticket sales, so I'm going with "urban legend."

    (ETA: Wikipedia appears to agree with me: [en.wikipedia.org]) )

    Dirty Dancing made $213.9M as of 1997, according to Wikipedia, and cost $6M to make. It remains the most profitable mainstream movie ever made.
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 11/23/09 2:21 PM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of tiredfairy tiredfairy
    11/23/09

    @maneki neko: Oh, thank you for saying that. Women are expected to identify with male characters all the time. We don't really have the choice, if we want to read or watch movies that our outside the "romance" genre. But men are not. And there seems to be this underlying idea that the male audience will run away screaming if a female character is in the lead in one of "their" movies, or is not some stereotype, or ultimately saved by some dude. Nevermind that Alien and Aliens bucks that idea.

    And so, so, so much of it sexism. Women are weak so men can't/shouldn't identify with their characters or stories, women as the "other"...or the ridiculous notion that women have such radically different experiences, at core, than men do. And by that I mean that we ALL can relate to coming of age stories. Loss of virginity stories. Awkward adolescence. Love. Loss. Quests. Etc. None of those things are inherently gendered, we've just decided they are. Or value one genders specific experiences over the other as more relatable. Drives me nuts.
     Reply
    tiredfairy was starred tiredfairy was unstarred
    Image of katie.scarlett.o'hara katie.scarlett.o'hara
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    Also, per theater averages for Broken Embraces, the new Almodovar movie with Penelope Cruz, were through the roof this weekend. It definitely beat out New Moon in that regard, even though it's only in limited release.

    I hope Nine does well, I'm super excited for that one (Cruz fangirl, holla!).

    The only thing that kind of sucks about this analysis is that the movies women seem to flock to at the theaters are New Moon and SATC, rather than smaller stuff (I guess Precious would be the exception). I think that has to do with the whole "theater experience" thing though...I can wait for Precious to come out on dvd, but I want to see something like SATC on the big screen with a bunch of people.
     Reply
    katie.scarlett.o'hara was starred katie.scarlett.o'hara was unstarred
    Image of Leucadia Leucadia
    11/23/09

    @katie.scarlett.o'hara: Well, in a way the problem you mention suggests that women ARE like men in one important way: most of them would most often prefer to see a non-threatening, non-challenging movie. Female-oriented idiotic fluff is finally equal to male-oriented idiotic fluff. Yay?
    (I say this as a lifelong consumer of really stupid movies. I almost never watch foreign films, dramas, or anything serious. I watch total crap, but I'm not proud of it.)
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra promoted this comment Leucadia was starred Leucadia was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @katie.scarlett.o'hara: It's not just women who do that, though. Men do the same thing. Slumdog Millionaire didn't gross nearly the same as Transformers 2, but only one of those won any Oscars.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of katie.scarlett.o'hara katie.scarlett.o'hara
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: @Leucadia: I think just as many women go to see action and sci fi movies as men do, that's what makes movies Transformers so popular. I know I definitely went and saw Transformers 2 (before reading the reviews, don't judge!), as well as Fast and Furious and Star Trek this year. Although I also went to see Taking Woodstock, Julie & Julia, and Where the Wild Things Are, so I don't think my movie-going history really fits either profile.
     Reply
    katie.scarlett.o'hara was starred katie.scarlett.o'hara was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @katie.scarlett.o'hara: See, New Moon was the first movie I've seen in theaters this year aside from a MST3k special one night only thing. I meant to go see a lot of movies, but then never got around to it because I couldn't round up anyone to go with.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of katie.scarlett.o'hara katie.scarlett.o'hara
    11/23/09

    @Zombie Ms. Skittles: I am going to CRY if I can't find anyone to go see Nine with me.

    I would have gone and seen New Moon, but I didn't want to contribute to it making more money than The Dark Knight. I read all the books, but I never got around to seeing the last movie, either.
     Reply
    katie.scarlett.o'hara was starred katie.scarlett.o'hara was unstarred
    Image of Zombie Ms. Skittles Zombie Ms. Skittles
    11/23/09

    @katie.scarlett.o'hara: Twilight was such a boring stupid movie. I actually vastly preferred New Moon, but I don't know if that's because I saw it in theater, I saw it with someone who was super stoked about it, or I didn't actually look Taylor Lautner in the face for the entire second act. But either way, something about New Moon made me actually kind of like it.
     Reply
    Zombie Ms. Skittles was starred Zombie Ms. Skittles was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Leucadia: I think it's more that both men and women want to know for sure what they're spending their $10-12 on, which isn't quite the same as saying that they want something predictable. Way too many movies are advertised as one thing and turn out to be another. (Hello, Hancock.) It's one big reason why adaptations from comics, foreign movies, TV shows, etc. are so popular--they're known quantities. Most of the people going to watch Transformers knew perfectly well that the dialogue would suck and the acting was negligible; they wanted to see cool-looking transforming robots and shit blow up. There's nothing wrong with knowing what you want to spend your money on.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Etoiles Etoiles
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    How hard is it to learn from obvious lessons?

    The biggest grossing film of ALL TIME was Titanic, and the repeat-viewings that pushed that across the $1bn box-office line were almost all girls and young women.

    The thing that the writers of fanservicey flicks need to realize is that while maybe all Twihards are female, the "traditional" giant fanbase properties (Star Trek, Star Wars, LOTR, etc etc) *also* attract a multitide of fangirls, not just the fanboys, and sometimes we'd appreciate being treated more like people. Hint: it doesn't drive off viewers (see also: BSG).
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment Etoiles was starred Etoiles was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Etoiles: Jinx!
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Red-headed bookworm Red-headed bookworm
    11/23/09

    @Etoiles: I agree. I'm female and love sci-fi and comics. I hate feeling like an ignored fan just because of my gender.
     Reply
    Red-headed bookworm was starred Red-headed bookworm was unstarred
    Image of nnnnnnn' nnnnnnn'
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    You know that Hollywood will look at New Moon and think not "More female protagonists," but "Chicks dig vampires!"
     Reply
    hortense promoted this comment nnnnnnn' was starred nnnnnnn' was unstarred
    Image of Kivrin Kivrin
    11/23/09

    In reply to Hollywood Needs To Take Women, Fangirls Seriously
    "Hollywood should be learning that women are not to be ignored."

    But hasn't Hollywood always known that? I mean, the first Disney princess came on the scene more than 70 years ago, and the term "chick flick" exists for a reason. I'm pretty sure Hollywood has been catering to (and making money off) women for awhile now. Or am I missing something?
     Reply
    Kivrin was starred Kivrin was unstarred
    Image of InCahoots InCahoots
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: No, I think you're right. They know not to ignore women, they just don't know not to stick to a stereotypical view of what women want to see.
     Reply
    Kivrin promoted this comment InCahoots was starred InCahoots was unstarred
    Image of Agumen Agumen
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: Yeah, that's what I thought as well. I think what the author wants is more GOOD movies aimed at women, happily ignoring that most of the movies made for men are utter crap too. Most movies 'for women' are stupid rom-coms etc, and most movies for guys involve murder as disposable entertainment. We all deserve better. I guess making movies is just hard!
     Reply
    Kivrin promoted this comment Agumen was starred Agumen was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: Hollywood used to spend serious money on "women's movies," paying top dollar for scripts, talent, effects (such as they were), etc. Probably the best example is Gone With the Wind, which cost a fortune to produce and still looks like it 70 years later. It was definitely a chick flick of the highest order. Somewhere around the era of the blockbuster action movie, the studio execs got used to the idea of cheap romantic comedies and never looked back. Pay a couple of moderately famous stars big bucks, shoot somewhere cheap, skimp on an actual script, and what do you get?

    Well, some of the time, you get Pretty Woman, but mostly you get the dreck that's been clogging up our screens for lo these many years. Titanic is the last movie that I can think of that fit the traditional Hollywood chick flick model (huge budget, big stars), and you could make an argument that it was a synthesis of an action movie and a romance more than anything else.
     Reply
    la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of Kivrin Kivrin
    11/23/09

    @la.donna.pietra: Good point; most of the really expensive movies are "guy flicks." But the examples cited by Dodai, i.e., Precious and New Moon, won't do much to convince studio execs to spend more money, as both were relatively cheap to produce. Oh well.
     Reply
    Kivrin was starred Kivrin was unstarred
    Image of Susan B. Susan B.
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: I agree. Isn't the issue the lack of GOOD movies for and featuring women? Princess movies were always going to get female dollars, so perhaps the story here is more that African-Americans shouldn't be undersetimated as box office draws.

    And are we pretending that the Twilight franchise is a blow against the celluloid patriarchy? I thought the general consensus was that a) these movies are bad and b) the Twihards are obsessed with the cute BOYS in the books/movies--not the female protagonist.
     Reply
    Kivrin promoted this comment Susan B. was starred Susan B. was unstarred
    Image of la.donna.pietra la.donna.pietra
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: There's actually a lot of debate about how much it really cost to make Twilight. I've heard rumors that Catherine Hardwicke was booted from New Moon because the bottom line was more like $75-80M than the cited $37M. (Given how insanely much money it made, it seems a little sketchy, but studio execs are touchy about stuff like that.) Point being, New Moon may not have been all that cheap. In comparison to, say, Wolverine ($150M budget), it was a bargain and a half, but in comparison to your standard teen romance flick, it was pricey.
     Reply
    Edited by la.donna.pietra at 11/23/09 1:49 PM la.donna.pietra was starred la.donna.pietra was unstarred
    Image of SlayBelle SlayBelle
    11/23/09

    @Kivrin: In addition to what everyone else has said in response, its the ghettoization of women-driven movies that are the problem. 'Mainstream' movies are movies that are assumed to be watched by men, with men in the bulk of the starring roles, filmed with a male gaze, and aimed a mainstream (read: dude) audience.

    'Chick flicks' are a sub genre instead of being embraced and wrapped into the mainstream label. And its a lot of pap and crap -- which I won't deny is pretty standard Hollywood in general -- but there's something to be said about movies aimed at women needing to be sectioned off like they were some niche market.
     Reply
    Kivrin promoted this comment SlayBelle was starred SlayBelle was unstarred
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