I didn't see anything objectionable in that video at all. Am I missing something?
Dr. P seemed very nice; I don't think I could have had that sort of patience with a grown-ass pregnant woman who was asking what a fetus/embryo was (but of course, im seeing this from the perspective where i know she is trying to ensnare him into using the "b" word). he could be my abortionist any day.
@KATE!: For anyone not already on their side, I think the video's ineffective. It shows very patient, reasonable clinic staff talking to a woman who appears to be... uh, slow.
He seems really nice, though I'll admit I wince every time I watch one of these and realize the doctor's in his 60s. I'm officially worried about there being no young doctors who will provide abortions.
You know what the second worst thing about this is? I always thought Lila and Rose were pretty names and I wanted to give them to future cats. She ruined TWO names I liked!
@Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole: But kitty Rose and Lila would counteract this moron who is ruining the lovely names, and would therefore help make them OK again. Because all cats are clearly pro-choice.
Further evidence that Planned Parenthood is not actually paying anyone an exorbitant sum - [www.guidestar.org]
Granted, the CEO of the national version makes $385K a year, COO makes about $249K, and CFO makes about $277K, but that's pretty much standard operating procedure for an org the size of PP.
Also struck me as odd: Planned Parenthood nonprofits are incorporated as dozens of different organizations. Anyone know why? I'm assuming the name is trademarked, so they can't be operating independently of one another.
@Perhaps Not: Part of it is that Planned Parenthood has different position. On the one hand it is a health provider and it is a non profit. It is also a political organization and frequently engages in lawsuits on behalf of reproductive health care. The political action parts are legally not allowed to be funded from the same source as the health care providing parts and vice -versa.
@Alexandra Bonomo: Having worked at a PP Center for a while, I can say that we were absolutely not allowed to advocate politically. We had a legislative "sister" organization that was not a 501(c)3 that did that stuff. It was "PP Affiliates of Michigan", I think. A "sister" in spirit but totally separate.
@pesematology: I know---still haven't forgotten Bush's comment about malpractice suits preventing the good family doctor from "'practicing their love" (I mock, but deep down, I bet I could've said something equally awkward).
My point is....I hate these people. I hate them when they terrorize patients (I might be coming for a referral, I might need an abortion, I might need B.C., I might have just been raped. Don't care--FUCK OFF, AND GET YOUR BLOODY FETUS OUT OF MY FACE, ASSHOLE), I hate their power in Congress (be they bishops or...hell, it's mainly religious groups trying to force dogma into law, isn't it), I hate the likes of Scott Roeder, I hate when people shrug it off.
I hate that they portray this as a "lucrative" job.
I think, I must be insane. Maybe I'm a fool--there must be a reason no one else but women written off as "feminazis" or "special interest groups" (at BEST) feels disturbed when doctors providing medical services (including vital services OTHER than abortion....a relative used the term "abortion industry" with me the other day and I gave a speech bordering on a rant explaining why that term is bullshit) and BIRTH CONTROL, for God's sake, go to work every day worried that they'll be blown up in their offices, or targeted at home.
They talk about these doctors as fat-cat profiteers of death....then they vote for Bush, and, by default, all the friends who will get sweetheart contracts, every company who benefits when idiot voters and indifferent, arrogant government leaders treat war as folly.
All that religion goes out the window when it comes time to fund social services for all those unwanted kids...
It is a fucking crime.
I am terrified of these people because their insanity is legitimized....everywhere. They've already won of the war of words--"pro-life" versus "pro-abortion." Jesus.
The same people shouting that abortion is a money making industry are absolutely silent on the fucking gold mine that is our war industry and military complex (I'm looking at you Haliburton/ KBR). If you're anti-choice but pro-war you can go jump in the nearest lake.
I can't believe I just heard the word "lucrative" associated with abortion and Planned Parenthood.
If there were a free-market incentive for abortion, you'd be able to get one at Starbucks, using a coupon.
The only thing lucrative about abortion is the staggering medical malpractice insurance extorted from doctors in order to finance shitty investments in speculative financial products of commoditized debt.
Also do you have any links or anything to google about the medical malpractice issued to ob/gyns? I don't even think about malpractice when I go to the doctor and it sickens me that people extort those we need most.
@huls: From what I understand from people I know in healthcare, doctors can expect to pay 25-60% of their after-tax income in insurance (this varies due to a number of factors). This is another reason the healthcare debate is complex: because in order to help reduce these premiums, some thought has to be given to tort reform and punitive damage caps (which democrat policymakers would traditionally rather ignore). But some common sense is in order here: Doctors and nurses are people, they make mistakes too - suing them for 10's of millions of dollars isn't going to bring back your loved-one.
Mostly, I'm bitter because now that we've bailed out the insurance companies and banks, they have the audacity to go back to business as usual and are actually profiting, while so many smaller businesses are failing because the banks won't lend, and healthcare's going up. The insurance companies are certainly not all that's to be blamed for US healthcare woes, but they will have to give more value to the consumer under reform, and they don't like that at all.
Here's a quick primer that references figures from a GAO (General Accounting Office) report: [www.policyalmanac.org]
In my History of American Law class, we studied the history of abortion.
And up until, like, the 1940's abortion wasn't a controversy. At all.
In fact, a lot of religious grouops advocated legalizing abortion.
Women passed tips to each other for how to do them - and they did not consider themselves to be pregnant until the quickening occurred. Basically, they had a missed period and wanted to fix that.
Pretty much, we're no more backwards than we were when women didn't even have the right to vote. Progress!
@NellMood: My understanding of that (which is true) comes from reading "When Abortion Was a Crime", and suggested that the reasons for protesting were two-fold: it was often very dangerous, and was controlled by men who mostly wanted to erase the proof of infidelity or responsibility to wed and care for a woman and child. With the lack of legal protections and self-determination for women generally, it would make sense that women like Susan B. Anthony saw abortion as a patriarchal and dangerous way to keep men from having to live up to their "half" of the social contract. I don't know how much of the campaigns really focused on the women/mid-wife centric folk remedies.
@SunburnedCounsel: Oh, thanks- I'll have to look for that book. It's really not a history I know much about, but I just read something tangential about abortion laws in another book I was reading about 19th C women in American cities.
@HPgirl: Read it over break, it's a fascinating read. On public transportation preferably. With the cover clearly visable. Enjoy the reactions around you. Rinse. Repeat.
Okay, I think it's time to fight back. I can supply hours of footage of Republicans blatantly lying to further their political agenda. I can even show written statements by a prominent GOP politician and 2012 presidential frontrunner where she uses lies to support her agenda. And I've got some dirt on Sen. Vitter and Gov. Sandford that would blow your mind! We'll expose this to the public and everyone will be horrified!
Oh wait, what's that you say? People are already aware of Fox News and Sarah Palin's Facebook profile and the countless affairs of GOP family values politicians? And no one gives a damn? I guess we'll just continue to let them target Planned Parenthood and ACORN, which clearly have more power in the world.
Maybe this would help: all women get the option to vote on abortion care on the day they discover they are unplannedly, unwantedly pregnant. Preferably while they're in the middle of something personal, say grad school, a career, high school even, that makes being pregnant not ideal. On that day, they get to decide whether they AND OTHER WOMEN should have safe access to abortion.
@sequined: No, see, I have a good reason. I had to. I didn't have a choice. The rest of them? Were totally irresponsible. They could have made it work, they just didn't want to.
@LutherNipperkin: In my imagination they would have to tick the box before they go in for their abortion, and the clinic wouldn't do it if they voted against choice. This would obviously be illegal, but I think effective.
@sequined: Where was it I read interviews with clinic employees and doctors whose patients would include people who regularly protested the same clinic they went to for treatment. They'd have an abortion, call the doctor a monster, and be back in the mob the next week.
I'm against Michelle Malkin because she steals Christmas presents from children of pro-choice mothers, calling the practice "Giftbortion." She hides cameras all over the houses she robs and tapes the kids crying and then watches the tapes and laughs and laughs and laughs.
It's like the anti-abortionists are trying to compete with PETA on carrying their cause to inaccurate levels.
Also it sounds like my mom wrote this. She told me how she used to protest abortion clinics and even worked to get one shut down in a southern state.
When I was 17 or 18 and took the morning after pill my parents found out by going through my car and found the receipt, they then had the whole family sit down and read me bible verses about how abortion is wrong. Never mind that I most likely could not have been pregnant, but was young, paranoid and sexually inexperienced. My mother even things some forms of birth control is abortion in and of itself.
@HannahBethD: If you're serious, there are a bunch that anti-abortion types use - John the Baptist was "He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth," according to Luke; the Psalmist sings ""You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret;" the word for "baby" and the word for "fetus" are the same word in Greek (βÏέφος).
@duetoprivacy: Did they read you the Bible verses where it states that a man who causes a woman to have a miscarriage isn't legally considered a murderer? Or the verses where the circumstances under which a priest can induce an abortion are outlined?
Also this classic: I knit you together in your mother's womb (Psalm 139.13)
While I respect the bible and even after all the craziness my parents spouted, I don't think that the bible was intended to bring people down or be vindictive !
@Jenna: If you could provide me with that I would love it. I live the bible belt where people bring their children to sit outside the abortion clinics with pictures of dead fetus' and would love to have some ammo.
I am also a blackhearted woman for drinking and dancing, according the the conservatives yelling on the street corner.
@duetoprivacy: # Exodus 21:22 If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
One source comments that because some Bible translations (KJV, RSV) use the phrase "woman with child" that God considers a fetus to be a human child. 3 But other translations render the phrase simply as "pregnant woman" and make no direct reference to the fetus.
This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person.
Verse 22 is confusing. The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." 4 This has been translated in different Bible versions as:
* A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.
* premature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.
The New International Version of the Bible uses the phrase: "gives birth prematurely." and offers "miscarriage" as an alternative translation in a footnote. These two options result in totally opposite interpretations: one supporting the pro-choice faction; the other supporting the pro-life movement.
Some liberal theologians reject this interpretation. 5 They point out that this passage appears to have been derived from two earlier Pagan laws, whose intent is quite clear:
* Code of Hammurabi (209, 210) which reads: "If a seignior struck a[nother] seignior's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage [literally, caused her to drop that of her womb], he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus. If that woman had died, they shall put his daughter to death."
* Hittite Laws, (1.17): "If anyone causes a free woman to miscarry [literally, drives out the embryo]-if (it is) the 10th month, he shall give 10 shekels of silver, if (it is) the 5th month, he shall give 5 shekels of silver..." The phrase "drives out the embryo" appears to relate to a miscarriage rather than to a premature birth.
Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums the passage up with: "Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death." 4
@Jenna: Growing up I heard that one a lot. In fact many anti-choicers use that verse as justification for being anti-choice. In certain translations it says something like, if a man injures a pregnant woman and "no mischief follows," it's all good, but otherwise he gets stoned. Or something like that. Anyway, instead of using the reasonable interpretation that what it means is that if you only cause a miscarriage but the woman lives, you're fine -- they interpret it to mean that if you kick her in the stomach but she remains pregnant, then you're fine. But if she has a miscarriage it's stoning for you.
@duetoprivacy: HannahBethD did a great job explaining the Exodus 21:22 passage, which outlines how causing a miscarriage is not a capital crime equivalent to murder. The one time the bible discusses induced abortion is in Numbers 5:11-31.
The gist is: if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful to her husband, and of carrying another man's child, her priest:
"shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman's hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse."
The priest gives her a medicine intended to induce miscarriage (the bitter water "makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge") — if she has been unfaithful. (It supposedly won't harm a marital pregnancy.)
Ancient cultures had a strong familiarity with the kinds of herbal medicines that can be used to induce a miscarriage. One abortifacient plant, silphium, was even made extinct, probably through overuse, by the time the Roman empire fell.
@Jenna: That's fascinating. I'd never heard the passage interpreted that way but then I grew up/studied the Bible in a pretty severe evangelical context. And, hilariously, Shakespeare (ask me about our high school production of "As You Like It" sometime). But it makes sense (here's the entire passage, abortifacient lovers! [www.gnpcb.org]). The language is vague, since lady things are rarely referred to overtly in the Bible, but it actually makes the most sense when read in that context.
Why? Why does it matter to them what I do with my own life? If it's true that I'm going to hell for having my abortion, then that's just more room in heaven for them. Just stop it, just stop trying to control everyone around you. It doesn't change your life at all if you just let me make my choices and live my life in peace.
@Raised-byHeathens: Because, despite scientific evidence, they honestly believe that a fetus is a fully realized human being. And they believe that a woman doesn't have a right to end the life of what they consider to be a fully realized human being.
They really think that they're saving lives rather than destroying them.
@morninggloria: That is obviously a very big part of it, but also, and this is something that has always bothered me about anti-abortionists, the way they act makes me want to hold a giant sign in their face that says "You are not God so stop acting like it."
What happens to us "sinners" is none of their business. In the end, it's completely up to God (if you believe in that of course)
@morninggloria: But what about miscarriage? How do they explain that their God is killing a fully formed human in the womb without any human assistance? You never hear about anti-choice advocates promoting better, cheaper, more available pre-natal care to prevent miscarriage, it just seems so hypocritical to me. It makes me so sad.
@Raised-byHeathens: I think that they also see things that happen "naturally" as "God's" will. If a miscarriage happens, that's because God wanted it to happen. If an abortion happens, that's because humans decided that what God wanted (pregnancy) wasn't supposed to happen.
I say, if God's so attached to all of the preggers staying preggers, maybe he should make more durable fetuses.
12/09/09
Dr. P seemed very nice; I don't think I could have had that sort of patience with a grown-ass pregnant woman who was asking what a fetus/embryo was (but of course, im seeing this from the perspective where i know she is trying to ensnare him into using the "b" word). he could be my abortionist any day.
12/10/09
He seems really nice, though I'll admit I wince every time I watch one of these and realize the doctor's in his 60s. I'm officially worried about there being no young doctors who will provide abortions.
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[www.guidestar.org]
Granted, the CEO of the national version makes $385K a year, COO makes about $249K, and CFO makes about $277K, but that's pretty much standard operating procedure for an org the size of PP.
Also struck me as odd: Planned Parenthood nonprofits are incorporated as dozens of different organizations. Anyone know why? I'm assuming the name is trademarked, so they can't be operating independently of one another.
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Rage. Rage, rage, rage....despair.
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My point is....I hate these people. I hate them when they terrorize patients (I might be coming for a referral, I might need an abortion, I might need B.C., I might have just been raped. Don't care--FUCK OFF, AND GET YOUR BLOODY FETUS OUT OF MY FACE, ASSHOLE), I hate their power in Congress (be they bishops or...hell, it's mainly religious groups trying to force dogma into law, isn't it), I hate the likes of Scott Roeder, I hate when people shrug it off.
I hate that they portray this as a "lucrative" job.
I think, I must be insane. Maybe I'm a fool--there must be a reason no one else but women written off as "feminazis" or "special interest groups" (at BEST) feels disturbed when doctors providing medical services (including vital services OTHER than abortion....a relative used the term "abortion industry" with me the other day and I gave a speech bordering on a rant explaining why that term is bullshit) and BIRTH CONTROL, for God's sake, go to work every day worried that they'll be blown up in their offices, or targeted at home.
They talk about these doctors as fat-cat profiteers of death....then they vote for Bush, and, by default, all the friends who will get sweetheart contracts, every company who benefits when idiot voters and indifferent, arrogant government leaders treat war as folly.
All that religion goes out the window when it comes time to fund social services for all those unwanted kids...
It is a fucking crime.
I am terrified of these people because their insanity is legitimized....everywhere. They've already won of the war of words--"pro-life" versus "pro-abortion." Jesus.
12/09/09
12/09/09
You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
Your heart is full of unwashed socks
Your soul is full of gunk.
Lila Rose.
The three words that best describe you,
are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."
You're a rotter, Ms Malkin.
You're the queen of sinful sots.
Your heart's a dead tomato splot
With moldy purple spots,
Ms Malkin.
Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing
with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable
rubbish imaginable,
Mangled up in tangled up knots.
12/09/09
It's time again, Rose
To tell the truth from the lies
Lila Rose
It's time again, Rose
About a thousand falsehoods...why?
So here is my counter-song
Not fancy or fine
Lila Rose,
Get the facts for next time
12/09/09
12/09/09
If there were a free-market incentive for abortion, you'd be able to get one at Starbucks, using a coupon.
The only thing lucrative about abortion is the staggering medical malpractice insurance extorted from doctors in order to finance shitty investments in speculative financial products of commoditized debt.
And they want to shoot doctors?
12/09/09
Also do you have any links or anything to google about the medical malpractice issued to ob/gyns? I don't even think about malpractice when I go to the doctor and it sickens me that people extort those we need most.
12/09/09
Mostly, I'm bitter because now that we've bailed out the insurance companies and banks, they have the audacity to go back to business as usual and are actually profiting, while so many smaller businesses are failing because the banks won't lend, and healthcare's going up. The insurance companies are certainly not all that's to be blamed for US healthcare woes, but they will have to give more value to the consumer under reform, and they don't like that at all.
Here's a quick primer that references figures from a GAO (General Accounting Office) report: [www.policyalmanac.org]
12/09/09
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And up until, like, the 1940's abortion wasn't a controversy. At all.
In fact, a lot of religious grouops advocated legalizing abortion.
Women passed tips to each other for how to do them - and they did not consider themselves to be pregnant until the quickening occurred. Basically, they had a missed period and wanted to fix that.
Pretty much, we're no more backwards than we were when women didn't even have the right to vote. Progress!
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#tips
12/09/09
Oh wait, what's that you say? People are already aware of Fox News and Sarah Palin's Facebook profile and the countless affairs of GOP family values politicians? And no one gives a damn? I guess we'll just continue to let them target Planned Parenthood and ACORN, which clearly have more power in the world.
12/09/09
And: pro-choice wins by a landslide!
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Here: [mypage.direct.ca]
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Also it sounds like my mom wrote this. She told me how she used to protest abortion clinics and even worked to get one shut down in a southern state.
When I was 17 or 18 and took the morning after pill my parents found out by going through my car and found the receipt, they then had the whole family sit down and read me bible verses about how abortion is wrong. Never mind that I most likely could not have been pregnant, but was young, paranoid and sexually inexperienced. My mother even things some forms of birth control is abortion in and of itself.
wow it feel so much better to get that out there.
How I ended up pro-choice, I don't know.
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Allergic reaction to crazy talk, it happens to a lot of intelligent people.
(I don't mean to say that your parents aren't intelligent)
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Also this classic: I knit you together in your mother's womb (Psalm 139.13)
While I respect the bible and even after all the craziness my parents spouted, I don't think that the bible was intended to bring people down or be vindictive !
12/09/09
I am also a blackhearted woman for drinking and dancing, according the the conservatives yelling on the street corner.
12/09/09
One source comments that because some Bible translations (KJV, RSV) use the phrase "woman with child" that God considers a fetus to be a human child. 3 But other translations render the phrase simply as "pregnant woman" and make no direct reference to the fetus.
This verse describes a situation in which a man, who is fighting another man, accidentally hits a pregnant woman, and causes a termination of her pregnancy. The following verse, 23, explains that if the woman died, the guilty man would be executed by the state. The accidental killing of a woman under these circumstances was considered a capital offense, because she was a human person.
Verse 22 is confusing. The key Hebrew word "yatsa" literally means to "lose her offspring." 4 This has been translated in different Bible versions as:
* A miscarriage: This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.
* premature birth: This implies that the fetus is born earlier than full term. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that neither the woman nor the baby dies) then the man would pay a fine. One possible interpretation of this passage would be that if the premature baby died, then the man responsible had killed a human person, and would be tried for murder. The verse is ambiguous at this point.
The New International Version of the Bible uses the phrase: "gives birth prematurely." and offers "miscarriage" as an alternative translation in a footnote. These two options result in totally opposite interpretations: one supporting the pro-choice faction; the other supporting the pro-life movement.
Some liberal theologians reject this interpretation. 5 They point out that this passage appears to have been derived from two earlier Pagan laws, whose intent is quite clear:
* Code of Hammurabi (209, 210) which reads: "If a seignior struck a[nother] seignior's daughter and has caused her to have a miscarriage [literally, caused her to drop that of her womb], he shall pay ten shekels of silver for her fetus. If that woman had died, they shall put his daughter to death."
* Hittite Laws, (1.17): "If anyone causes a free woman to miscarry [literally, drives out the embryo]-if (it is) the 10th month, he shall give 10 shekels of silver, if (it is) the 5th month, he shall give 5 shekels of silver..." The phrase "drives out the embryo" appears to relate to a miscarriage rather than to a premature birth.
Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums the passage up with: "Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death." 4
From [www.religioustolerance.org]
12/09/09
I swear I'm not making this shit up.
12/09/09
The gist is: if a woman is suspected of being unfaithful to her husband, and of carrying another man's child, her priest:
"shall set the woman before the Lord, dishevel the woman's hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse."
The priest gives her a medicine intended to induce miscarriage (the bitter water "makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge") — if she has been unfaithful. (It supposedly won't harm a marital pregnancy.)
Ancient cultures had a strong familiarity with the kinds of herbal medicines that can be used to induce a miscarriage. One abortifacient plant, silphium, was even made extinct, probably through overuse, by the time the Roman empire fell.
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Which is fine by me!
12/09/09
They really think that they're saving lives rather than destroying them.
12/09/09
What happens to us "sinners" is none of their business. In the end, it's completely up to God (if you believe in that of course)
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12/09/09
I say, if God's so attached to all of the preggers staying preggers, maybe he should make more durable fetuses.
12/09/09