Advance doesn't matter. If your book sells over the advance, then you're paid royalties for the overage.
However, for the normal author, if your book doesn't make the advance you're in trouble. Usually, it means you'll never publish again and your name is mud. However, some authors have been asked to pay back the advance. Sarah Palin? Not a chance.
A large advance that the sales don't meet just means that Palin cost her publishing company more money than any publishing company can afford to lose. Because of her, (depending on the company), a few thousand hopeful new authors, and a few thousand more established authors, won't see their books published this year, or ever. In publishing, it's never a bad thing to offer or take a smaller advance if your book is going to sell well. Unless you're JK Rowling, you don't take the large advance.
@BytheSea: The majority of these 'big' advances don't earn out, and I've never heard of anyone being asked to 'return' their advance. If you have names and/or links to articles, I'd like to see them, because even liars like James Frey and plagarists like a particular young YA author and others have kept their large paycheck.
Like you, I find the fact these obscene advances go to celebrities or public figures who, ironically, don't write their own books anyway. The publishing industry is whining 'recession' and good writers with fabulous books can't make a living, yet they can still manage to drum up millions for ex-porn stars or beauty pagaent queens. Then they blame the midlist author for their financial ruin - really?
@conspicuouschick: I've never heard of anyone being asked to 'return' their advance
I heard stories from agents and editors who were guest speakers at my grad school. They couldn't name names. They said it was rare, but has happened when the publishers banked big on something like a memoir that turned out to be fake and the public actually cared (as opposed to the discredited memoirs people still buy).
Also, some prolific mystery author (bitterest man on the planet) who came to speak also told a story of a author with pathological narcissism issues who could tell a good summery and get a good advance up front before he wrote the book, but never delivered. He was sued after he promised too many unwritten books. But again, rare case.
Anyway, publishers are desperate for the next JK to save their business but it's the midlist that's their bread and butter. But they routinely screw them over on their third or fourth book if they don't continue to outsell themselves. No one can keep that up. It's like asking a pro athelete to get a better and better average every year - even the best have good years and bad years. But a lot of midlisters get dropped after a few books b/c they don't turn into runaway hits.
And now you know why the UK has around a 6% rape conviction rate on a good year...the police only worry about doing something wrong when it might affect a man, not when it might traumatise or endanger a woman.
@curiousgeorgiana: Yes. Clinton is so much more articulate. Her education shows. I think it's unfortunate that, when her book came out, people used her husband's affairs against her. As if it were somehow her own fault, and thus she wasn't worthy of telling a memoir.
I like that raising the chance of having a girl is known as a "side effect". Really no one would ever know they are having a girl vs. boy because of medication.
God, stories about people who don't know they're pregnant until they give birth terrify me! I mean, they made a whole tv series about it so it could happen to me.
@MargaretMoony: Right? As if I wasn't already paranoid enough (says the girl who took a pregnancy test when she was still a virgin)? And then on top of not wanting to be pregnant and unaware, I also start worrying about deforming it with all the wine I drink. Poor little phantom baby.
The Sacred Heart assault case is interesting. I saw an AP piece on it where they had assumed it was a gang rape and then had to re-edit when the found out what they are actually accused of is fondly her against her will while she had consensual sex with someone else.
I'm kind of impressed the woman pressed charges, I think a lot of women would have felt they couldn't because there was no non-consensual penetration.
Isn't that a part of the ADA? That everyone is affirmed a right to bear life? Here in America I know that holds when it comes to the government and your body, but a private company is a different matter.
But in this case, it's different because she is paying a private company to aid her. It's not like she has a right to the use of their services. Had they denied her based on any reason other than her husband having kids, it'd be within THEIR rights as a private company. But to group them together isn't necessarily wrong if that was their companies policy and they knew that going in.
@Chivone: in her case the funding would come from the government and there are limits to government funded IVF in the UK, but local boards can make the limits even narrower. here in the US government programs -- medicaid and medicare do not cover it, ADA directives or not.
I think the key thing is that "unfairly labeling the couple as one person" business. Only one of them is going to have to carry a living creature in her abdomen, and she's the one who needs help conceiving.
@misspell: that's it exactly. they restrict government funding to only no- or one- child families, but since he has two, their quota has been filled as a couple, even though she has had none.
@greengrey: interesting. i wonder if ivf are restricted to only married couples?
i also nder if they could go to another fertility clinic in the UK? part of the problem is that this particular clinic interprets the guidelines very narrowly.
I think there's something really wrong about this. Why aren't people like the Duggars prevented from having more children or something if this is the case. I'm really bothered by this.
@Laulau: @LibidinousSlut: But I'm just saying, if they're going to limit one person, why can't they limit others? How come Daddy Duggar is allowed to have eighty million children, but this other guy can only have two? Are children created in an IVF considered lesser children? There are so many sides to this that aren't clearly being evaluated that might set odd and unfavorable precedents.
There's just something about this that I'm very uncomfortable with. I don't like the idea of anyone making decisions about anyone's family size or what they do with their own uterus, and this definitely feels like something that should be decided by the couple, not their doctors.
@Bunsen Honeydew: I agree. And I think that she should be given funding, since it's a right (to a limit) in the UK. But I don't think it's valid to compare families who conceive naturally with families who conceive with IVF in this circumstance. Her right to have children isn't being denied- it's her right to have the procedure paid for.
it sgould be pointed out that she can have IVF if she pays for it. she has been turned down for natinal health funding, the equivalent of medicaid -- government funding. there are limits on government funding of IVF in the UK.
@Stabby McStabberson: and reading further, the problem is that there are not standardized countrywide rules, but only guidelines that clinics can narrow, which this clinic did.
@Stabby McStabberson: Really good point. No one is denying her the procedure.
Kind of like if I want breast implants. The government can totally deny paying for that, it doesn't mean I CAN'T get them. I just have to shell out the money myself.
@greengrey: right, she is claiming that having a baby is a basic human right, and because they can't afford to pay for private IVF treatments,that they are efectively being denied that right, hence appealing to the european court of human rights in strasbourg. the question is, is conceiving a child an inalienable right, is the woman an individual distinct from the man and whose history is unique, and have they been denied that right when only one of them is denied that right. tricky, as in the UK, as noted, the national health program is funded by taxpayers. do they owe every individual a certain number of attempts.
@greengrey: Because breast implants are the same as a human life. And are you being denied these breast implants because your partner has already slept with someone who had breast implants?
@Stabby McStabberson: Sometimes it shocks me at how different some women are from me. She think a baby is a basic human right, I think a baby is a lifestyle choice.
I think governments should pay for necessary procedures, but I guess the debate starts at if a baby is "necessary" or not.
My heath insurance will pay for things I need. I need foot surgery. They're paying for that. Back to breast implants, I want those, I'm on my own with those.
@greengrey: i personally agree. i think ivf is a luxury. i grieve for those who don't have the opportunity to have children, in fact i am one of them, but having taxpayers pay for ivf is a bit much. i suspect this issue might come up in the us if we get some form of universal healthcare, though nadya suleman might have poisoned the issue..
@undomesticgoddess responds well to temptation: @greengrey: one of the issues here is if conceiving a child is a basic human right or a luxury. a "want". in addition, greengrey and i would classify a *taxpayer-funded* procedure differently than a privately funded procedure. she hasn't been denied the procedure itself but the funding, because as a couple they are deemed exceeding the criteria for government funding. she thinks she has a basic human right to attempt to conceive with ivf, and greengrey and i call it a luxury, on the basis of the source of funding as well as the procedure itself as we feel it is a luxury. we wouldn't approve of government-funded boob jobs either.
@greengrey: It's not that she can pay for it and she's being denied the procedure. It's that she's been deemed ineligible to receive government funding for the IVF.
@greengrey: If choice is allowed for terminating a pregnancy, then why shouldn't it be allowed for starting one? I don't like the idea of anyone saying what I can and can't do with my uterus.
@greengrey: Simply playing devil's advocate, what if someone doesn't have the funds to get an abortion? Would it be right if they were just turned down?
@30percentBONUS: It's in many cases slower and more expensive with no guarantee it will be successful, particularly foreign adoptions. Blame the agencies for making it impossible to be a parent to living kid.
@30percentBONUS: I think some women really want to experience having a baby-- carrying a person inside of them for nine months and then getting to meet them at the end. It's a sort of irreplaceable experience, isn't it? I don't even have a boyfriend at the moment, so my baby-making days are in the unknown future, but I'm pretty sure it's a life experience that I want to have if at all possible.
@battleaxonista: But the same with fertility treatments, and I'm not sure about those but I know with adoptions you usually get it back in taxes, like 4 grand or something back in taxes. I know women have been trying for ten-twelve years to have a baby with all these treatments, tons of money and shes just getting older and older. I mean I know adoption agencies are bitches to go through but it doesn't take that long, people get kids...
@30percentBONUS: As someone with no maternal instinct and no desire to be a parent whatsoever, I've always wondered that. I've also been told I'm a terrible person for asking that question.
@30percentBONUS: She can do that (or maybe they have tried, and failed), but why can't she experience pregnancy if she wants to? This isn't about her reasons for whether or not she wants to "just fucking adopt", this is about her being told that she can't receive IVF treatments for something beyond her control.
@30percentBONUS: People are denied for adoptions for all kinds of reasons: single status, body size, sexuality, biological mothers backing out at the last minute. Fertility treatments can circumvent that.
@tankearae: As a person who really wants to have a child someday; I think that the people who are calling you a terrible person for asking that are terribly narrow minded.
Dudes, like the WHOLE point of getting preggo is to HAVE A KID. Its nine months of bullshit, to get a kid. 9 months < a lifetime. I mean, basically you want a kid. If you want to just 'feel what its like' I dunno... thats, retarded. To be blunt. Its like 'oh I wanna get shot, just to feel whats it like, but I don't want to have bullet injury or go to the hospital or anything I just want to experience it.'
You do it to get a kid, and adoption, you get a kid.
I'm just saying theres tons of children that need a parent that never get one. Ever. And if you can't make babies but somehow in your mind believe you would make the best parent ever then just adopt a child.
To me its kind of a insult to be honest that all these adults are going through all this bullshit to get pregnant, when theres tons of children that would be a great match. To me its saying 'Oh all these children are bullshit, MY GENES would be SUPER, not like these kids who are already made.'
@30percentBONUS: I ask the same thing. In fact, there are SO MANY children without parents and homes that it does seem kinda selfish to go through all the trouble (and expense!) of fertility treatments just to have a baby with your own sacred genetic material looking back at you.
I love it when I'm dating a man who pinches his face at the mere suggestion of adoption because he'd rather just see more of himself in the world. Usually accompanied by the phrase "my son." Shudder.
@30percentBONUS: If you've read through the entire thread people have already told you the reasons women get fertility treatments. People get rejected for adoption all of the time. Should they NOT try to have kids some other way once they get rejected. Also, what do you care? If someone cares this much about the world you should go out and adopt some of those kids. Matters like these are no ones business except for the people who are experiencing them.
@30percentBONUS: I don't think it's as one sided as you're looking at it. I know a wonderful couple who's been on an adoption waiting list for five years, with no end in sight. They've also continued to try to conceive, because they want a child, either way. You're really minimizing a lot of people's experiences in that statement.
@30percentBONUS: This is kind of unrelated, but why are people so ridiculously judgmental about things that are none of their business such as when and how people chose to expand their family?
@30percentBONUS: Yeah... I mean, adoption is hard, but it seems like there would be a certain point when it would be better than continuing fertility treatments.
I feel like a lot of times people won't adopt because they want a child with their own genes, and that kind of bothers me. I know not everyone is like that, and I know fertility is a really painful thing and I don't want to judge anyone who has been through that because I might act the same way they do, but no one's genes are special enough to justify years and years of painful, expensive fertility treatments.
You never really know someone's motives or what they're going through, though, so I don't want to be unfair to those who choose fertility treatment over adoption.
I should probably also mention that I am terrified of being pregnant and the whole thing horrifies me to the point of barely being able to look at pregnant people, and I really don't want to pass on my genes, so while I know that there is a biological drive to have kids, I don't understand it, and that probably affects my thinking.
@30percentBONUS: The adoption process is not simple or easy. It isn't a matter of selecting one of those "tons of children" and taking him or her home immediately. As I said before, sometimes going through fertility treatment is the faster and cheaper route, and sometimes it's the only option.
@30percentBONUS: Exactly - there is a certain kind of superiority to all this when you are willing to go through years of painful treatments just for the benefit of a human life that is effectively "yours." Like other children would be damaged goods or something.
@MilointheMeadow: People get rejected during the adoption process for multitude of reasons. Are you people just ignoring that tidbit? Or are you skipping over it? I don't know.
@30percentBONUS: What's wrong with her wanting the child to be of her own flesh? She wants to have had the very special experience of carrying a baby to term. Yes, it's a sad fact that many children are in need of parents, but it's her prerogative whether she adopts or not. Just as there is nothing wrong with women who choose not to have children at all.
It's not "retarded" for someone to have a desire you don't understand. That's incredibly small minded of you to say.
@Kate2.18: Same here Kate, a few years ago I was planning on being nun and just leaving everything and I didn't mind not having kids or starting a family but now that I am married my body is like PRODUCE CHILDREN!! SPREAD THE GENES!! Like my mental state and everything has completely changed but I understand its all mental.
Your said what I wanted to say but a lot nicer. I don't care if I sound harsh over the internets... its the internets. I'm actually kind of happy it gotten so many responses. And yeah I know people who choose the turkey baster and stuff but it just, it insults me. And I mean everyone here always bitches about THERE SHOULD BE A TEST TO BE PARENT!! and when there is one, THIS TEST IS TOO HARD!! in reference to the adoption thing, which I know is some bullshit but still... I'm glad its there.
@Kate2.18: That's the other thing - I simply don't have that maternal urge, don't really know how to act around babies, .. I have a whole list of reasons why I don't want children, and yeah, that definitely makes it easier for me to say all these things.
On the off chance that I do want a child, however, adoption is the only way I would go: local or foreign, whatever. To me, that's what motherhood is: raising a child to the best of my abilities - it doesn't have to be my OWN child.
@Definer-not-defined: Also, isn't asking why women who can't naturally conceive why they don't just adopt (because it's just like going to the store and picking out a melon! So simple, adoption) a lot like asking why women who don't want children why they don't adopt? We could even be saying that they are not doing their duty to children in need, if they don't.
@MilointheMeadow: That's what motherhood is *to you.* But that doesn't invalidate (or make 'retarded') the desires of other women to include pregnancy in their definition of what they want out of motherhood. Just because the idea of being physically pregnant may sound wholly unpleasant in your mind doesn't mean it is so for every woman. And just because I personally would like to experience pregnancy doesn't mean I think of adoption as a lesser or less valid option. I do not. Dude.
@undomesticgoddess responds well to temptation: Yes, exactly. Why are women who can't conceive the ones who must solve the problem of all the unadopted children in the world? This conversation always comes up in discussions about fertility treatments, and I don't get it.
@30percentBONUS: Right, because if I'm rejected by an adoption agency for say, inadequate funds? Then maybe I don't have enough money to raise a child.
I'm not saying adoption is The Only Choice. But if you're going through years and years of expensive, painful (physical AND psychological) treatments, all so you can see yourself in another face? Then maybe you should be exploring some other options if you want a child that badly.
To doggedly pursue something like this for such an extended period of time smacks of selfishness and gobs of money.
@tankearae: Yeah. I mean, I kinda want kids but I don't have any particular biological or psychological NEED to experience "the miracle of life" or anything, so for me adoption would be preferable to biological just because I have no biological drive to have a baby inside me. It's funny because I really, really don't "get" the need to have babies the old fashioned way. I mean, I guess I understand that it's THERE but not what it feels like or why one would have it.
Kind of funny how all you people responding have to validate your choices to me if your offended by what I said. I'm not going to sugar coat my opinion and if it makes you red in the face, then sucks to be you.
@MilointheMeadow: I think what's bothering about your statements is that you're simplifying the reasons that people go through IVF into one generalization: so they can pass on their genetic material. People choose to use fertility treatments for numerous reasons, so I'm not sure why people keep assuming that the ONLY reason people must go through it is to have a kid that looks like them.
Also, people are rejected for adoption for a multitude of reasons. It's not just about money. Those reasons don't automatically disqualify their abilities to parent.
@MilointheMeadow: Right, because people don't go through years and years of being on adoption lists just to be rejected for being single, for having an illness, for being gay, etc. Adoption is sooo much easier. Yup. Also, millions of people are raised with parents that don't have enough money. So, what of it? Not everyone wants to save the world by adopting, you know. Some people could care less and I don't care to judge them.
@NellMood: I want to know if any of the people who say this have ever gone up to a woman who got pregnant 100% naturally, and said, "You know, you could have just adopted."
@MissSkittles is not your kind of lady: You definitely don't suck at being female. And on the flip side, I don't think being (or wanting to be) pregnant makes you any *more* of a woman. I think there are lots of women who feel like us out there.
@30percentBONUS: This is what I love about Jezebel - there are a lot of things that I don't account for when it comes to just spewing my opinions like I sometimes do. And although I'm not exactly changing my tune, I do appreciate everyone's posts about the trials of adoption as well as fertility treatments because these are issues that so rarely come up in my own life and I don't really know what all goes into it. So thanks to everyone for giving me pause.
It's easy for me to just get on my soapbox about it because I don't want children, but I know I need to learn to respect other women's desires to do so in whatever way they choose. I probably won't understand it, but in the future I will try to respect it.
@30percentBONUS: Oh god. It's people like you who give people like me a bad name. First of all, don't use the word retarded. It's insensitive, imprecise, and abelist.
Second. Please don't go around badmouthing people who want to get pregnant or get IFV en mass. You know, I think that, as a general rule, IVF is kind of fucked up. I know it costs a lot of money to adopt, that that it can take a long time; the same is true of IVF, with the added bonus of painful and dangerous medical treatment.
I also think that people who spend thousands of dollars to push their bodies into having kids can be selfish, and are probably doing it simply to re-create their genes. Of course, as biological creatures, we're meant to pass on our genes. So desiring IVF is pretty much a biological impulse for some people.
But 'biological impulse' has never really been enough of an explanation for me, and when people choose IVF without considering adoption, I think it's pretty narcissistic and irresponsible. Irresponsible not just because of the adoptable kids, but because the world is already dangerously over-populated. So when people say things like "it's none of your business," it sort of is, because as a member of the planet, the presence of extra people will affect me.
But since I also recognize that shit is complicated, I try not to say shit like, "that's retarded!" because sometimes, it's the only viable option for people who want babies. As of now, we live in a world with national borders, homophobia, bigotry, classism, and beauracrazy up the wazoo that keeps people from easily raising kids who would be better off with them than in the system getting bounced around and fucked with over and over again. Too bad that's not the world, because then I really wouldn't have a problem saying that I think IVF is unsustainable and irresponsible. As it is, if people want kids, they should be able to get treatment to get them.
I don't feel comfortable saying "women who get IVF to have kids are dumb," but I do think it's ok to say, "IVF as a treatment and abstract concept is dangerous." But because life is hard, and there are plenty of totally valid reasons to get fertility treatments, I am not comfortable being mean to women who choose to do it.
That said, the idea that pregnancy is something that anyone who wants to should be able to experience is total bullshit. Pregnancy might be something that people want to experience, but I don't think that it's necessarily something that should be a right. And I know that can be perverted into some scary and fucked up eugenics stuff, so it's really not a belief that can be implemented in this world (because of aforementioned classism, racism, etc etc that would turn it into eugenics). But in an ideal situation in which adoption was easier, it is far better to adopt than to have a kid just so you can be pregnant. I do think that's a little absurd. The state of pregnancy as a desired end unto itself is creepy and naive; the state of pregnancy is a stage through which people go to have a kid. Do people who think that pregnancy is really that special and important, so much so that they choose to spend lots of money to become so in favor of adopting an already-born kid*, feel like kids who are adopted are less close or important to their parents than kids who are born to their biological parents and then raised by them? I don't think anyone would say that; and if you can recognize that pregnancy doesn't make a difference in your relationship with your child, why is it an ideal state that is privileged over adoption/keeping a kid from being an orphan/being better for the environment?
*Again, recognizing that adoptions aren't all so easy, my statement is qualified by saying that this is an abstract opinion and not necessarily applicable to everyone.
@Cimorene: I would really like to know what it is like to be pregnant some day. The idea that my body could very well be capable of nourish and incubating a human being is fascinating to me, and I would love to experience that. I don't think there is anything creepy and naive about that desire. I'm sorry that you feel there is.
That said, pregnancy isn't the be-all end-all - I would like to have a kid no matter what, and if I have to adopt, I will. But ideally, I would absolutely love to be pregnant with my future child.
11/25/09
However, for the normal author, if your book doesn't make the advance you're in trouble. Usually, it means you'll never publish again and your name is mud. However, some authors have been asked to pay back the advance. Sarah Palin? Not a chance.
A large advance that the sales don't meet just means that Palin cost her publishing company more money than any publishing company can afford to lose. Because of her, (depending on the company), a few thousand hopeful new authors, and a few thousand more established authors, won't see their books published this year, or ever. In publishing, it's never a bad thing to offer or take a smaller advance if your book is going to sell well. Unless you're JK Rowling, you don't take the large advance.
11/26/09
Like you, I find the fact these obscene advances go to celebrities or public figures who, ironically, don't write their own books anyway. The publishing industry is whining 'recession' and good writers with fabulous books can't make a living, yet they can still manage to drum up millions for ex-porn stars or beauty pagaent queens. Then they blame the midlist author for their financial ruin - really?
11/26/09
I heard stories from agents and editors who were guest speakers at my grad school. They couldn't name names. They said it was rare, but has happened when the publishers banked big on something like a memoir that turned out to be fake and the public actually cared (as opposed to the discredited memoirs people still buy).
Also, some prolific mystery author (bitterest man on the planet) who came to speak also told a story of a author with pathological narcissism issues who could tell a good summery and get a good advance up front before he wrote the book, but never delivered. He was sued after he promised too many unwritten books. But again, rare case.
Anyway, publishers are desperate for the next JK to save their business but it's the midlist that's their bread and butter. But they routinely screw them over on their third or fourth book if they don't continue to outsell themselves. No one can keep that up. It's like asking a pro athelete to get a better and better average every year - even the best have good years and bad years. But a lot of midlisters get dropped after a few books b/c they don't turn into runaway hits.
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PM-ed you, btw.
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#tips
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#tips
11/25/09
I'm kind of impressed the woman pressed charges, I think a lot of women would have felt they couldn't because there was no non-consensual penetration.
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05/09/09
But in this case, it's different because she is paying a private company to aid her. It's not like she has a right to the use of their services. Had they denied her based on any reason other than her husband having kids, it'd be within THEIR rights as a private company. But to group them together isn't necessarily wrong if that was their companies policy and they knew that going in.
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i also nder if they could go to another fertility clinic in the UK? part of the problem is that this particular clinic interprets the guidelines very narrowly.
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There's just something about this that I'm very uncomfortable with. I don't like the idea of anyone making decisions about anyone's family size or what they do with their own uterus, and this definitely feels like something that should be decided by the couple, not their doctors.
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I don't really have an issue with limits on government funding for something like this.
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Kind of like if I want breast implants. The government can totally deny paying for that, it doesn't mean I CAN'T get them. I just have to shell out the money myself.
I don't see too much of a problem with it.
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I think governments should pay for necessary procedures, but I guess the debate starts at if a baby is "necessary" or not.
My heath insurance will pay for things I need. I need foot surgery. They're paying for that. Back to breast implants, I want those, I'm on my own with those.
I don't consider babies a NEED.
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But it does make me think, why does everyone need biological children? Are biological children a right?
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I'm assuming that if she could fund this without the government she wouldn't be turned down?
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@Mina_da_mad_child: Garr, really? Cos the upfront cost of an abortion is totally equal to financially supporting a child from 0 to 18. Urgh!
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You do it to get a kid, and adoption, you get a kid.
I'm just saying theres tons of children that need a parent that never get one. Ever. And if you can't make babies but somehow in your mind believe you would make the best parent ever then just adopt a child.
To me its kind of a insult to be honest that all these adults are going through all this bullshit to get pregnant, when theres tons of children that would be a great match. To me its saying 'Oh all these children are bullshit, MY GENES would be SUPER, not like these kids who are already made.'
05/09/09
I love it when I'm dating a man who pinches his face at the mere suggestion of adoption because he'd rather just see more of himself in the world. Usually accompanied by the phrase "my son." Shudder.
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I feel like a lot of times people won't adopt because they want a child with their own genes, and that kind of bothers me. I know not everyone is like that, and I know fertility is a really painful thing and I don't want to judge anyone who has been through that because I might act the same way they do, but no one's genes are special enough to justify years and years of painful, expensive fertility treatments.
You never really know someone's motives or what they're going through, though, so I don't want to be unfair to those who choose fertility treatment over adoption.
I should probably also mention that I am terrified of being pregnant and the whole thing horrifies me to the point of barely being able to look at pregnant people, and I really don't want to pass on my genes, so while I know that there is a biological drive to have kids, I don't understand it, and that probably affects my thinking.
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It's not "retarded" for someone to have a desire you don't understand. That's incredibly small minded of you to say.
05/09/09
Your said what I wanted to say but a lot nicer. I don't care if I sound harsh over the internets... its the internets. I'm actually kind of happy it gotten so many responses. And yeah I know people who choose the turkey baster and stuff but it just, it insults me. And I mean everyone here always bitches about THERE SHOULD BE A TEST TO BE PARENT!! and when there is one, THIS TEST IS TOO HARD!! in reference to the adoption thing, which I know is some bullshit but still... I'm glad its there.
05/09/09
On the off chance that I do want a child, however, adoption is the only way I would go: local or foreign, whatever. To me, that's what motherhood is: raising a child to the best of my abilities - it doesn't have to be my OWN child.
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(I wouldn't say this, but it COULD be said.)
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I'm not saying adoption is The Only Choice. But if you're going through years and years of expensive, painful (physical AND psychological) treatments, all so you can see yourself in another face? Then maybe you should be exploring some other options if you want a child that badly.
To doggedly pursue something like this for such an extended period of time smacks of selfishness and gobs of money.
05/09/09
I suck at being female sometimes.
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Also, people are rejected for adoption for a multitude of reasons. It's not just about money. Those reasons don't automatically disqualify their abilities to parent.
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You haven't been around here long, have you?
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It's easy for me to just get on my soapbox about it because I don't want children, but I know I need to learn to respect other women's desires to do so in whatever way they choose. I probably won't understand it, but in the future I will try to respect it.
Stepping down..
05/09/09
Second. Please don't go around badmouthing people who want to get pregnant or get IFV en mass. You know, I think that, as a general rule, IVF is kind of fucked up. I know it costs a lot of money to adopt, that that it can take a long time; the same is true of IVF, with the added bonus of painful and dangerous medical treatment.
I also think that people who spend thousands of dollars to push their bodies into having kids can be selfish, and are probably doing it simply to re-create their genes. Of course, as biological creatures, we're meant to pass on our genes. So desiring IVF is pretty much a biological impulse for some people.
But 'biological impulse' has never really been enough of an explanation for me, and when people choose IVF without considering adoption, I think it's pretty narcissistic and irresponsible. Irresponsible not just because of the adoptable kids, but because the world is already dangerously over-populated. So when people say things like "it's none of your business," it sort of is, because as a member of the planet, the presence of extra people will affect me.
But since I also recognize that shit is complicated, I try not to say shit like, "that's retarded!" because sometimes, it's the only viable option for people who want babies. As of now, we live in a world with national borders, homophobia, bigotry, classism, and beauracrazy up the wazoo that keeps people from easily raising kids who would be better off with them than in the system getting bounced around and fucked with over and over again. Too bad that's not the world, because then I really wouldn't have a problem saying that I think IVF is unsustainable and irresponsible. As it is, if people want kids, they should be able to get treatment to get them.
I don't feel comfortable saying "women who get IVF to have kids are dumb," but I do think it's ok to say, "IVF as a treatment and abstract concept is dangerous." But because life is hard, and there are plenty of totally valid reasons to get fertility treatments, I am not comfortable being mean to women who choose to do it.
That said, the idea that pregnancy is something that anyone who wants to should be able to experience is total bullshit. Pregnancy might be something that people want to experience, but I don't think that it's necessarily something that should be a right. And I know that can be perverted into some scary and fucked up eugenics stuff, so it's really not a belief that can be implemented in this world (because of aforementioned classism, racism, etc etc that would turn it into eugenics). But in an ideal situation in which adoption was easier, it is far better to adopt than to have a kid just so you can be pregnant. I do think that's a little absurd. The state of pregnancy as a desired end unto itself is creepy and naive; the state of pregnancy is a stage through which people go to have a kid. Do people who think that pregnancy is really that special and important, so much so that they choose to spend lots of money to become so in favor of adopting an already-born kid*, feel like kids who are adopted are less close or important to their parents than kids who are born to their biological parents and then raised by them? I don't think anyone would say that; and if you can recognize that pregnancy doesn't make a difference in your relationship with your child, why is it an ideal state that is privileged over adoption/keeping a kid from being an orphan/being better for the environment?
*Again, recognizing that adoptions aren't all so easy, my statement is qualified by saying that this is an abstract opinion and not necessarily applicable to everyone.
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That said, pregnancy isn't the be-all end-all - I would like to have a kid no matter what, and if I have to adopt, I will. But ideally, I would absolutely love to be pregnant with my future child.
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