There's just something about this that I'm very uncomfortable with. I don't like the idea of anyone making decisions about anyone's family size or what they do with their own uterus, and this definitely feels like something that should be decided by the couple, not their doctors.

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I don't really have an issue with limits on government funding for something like this.

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@Mina_da_mad_child: Garr, really? Cos the upfront cost of an abortion is totally equal to financially supporting a child from 0 to 18. Urgh!

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I'm just saying theres tons of children that need a parent that never get one. Ever. And if you can't make babies but somehow in your mind believe you would make the best parent ever then just adopt a child.

To me its kind of a insult to be honest that all these adults are going through all this bullshit to get pregnant, when theres tons of children that would be a great match. To me its saying 'Oh all these children are bullshit, MY GENES would be SUPER, not like these kids who are already made.'

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I love it when I'm dating a man who pinches his face at the mere suggestion of adoption because he'd rather just see more of himself in the world. Usually accompanied by the phrase "my son." Shudder.

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I feel like a lot of times people won't adopt because they want a child with their own genes, and that kind of bothers me. I know not everyone is like that, and I know fertility is a really painful thing and I don't want to judge anyone who has been through that because I might act the same way they do, but no one's genes are special enough to justify years and years of painful, expensive fertility treatments.

You never really know someone's motives or what they're going through, though, so I don't want to be unfair to those who choose fertility treatment over adoption.

I should probably also mention that I am terrified of being pregnant and the whole thing horrifies me to the point of barely being able to look at pregnant people, and I really don't want to pass on my genes, so while I know that there is a biological drive to have kids, I don't understand it, and that probably affects my thinking.

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It's not "retarded" for someone to have a desire you don't understand. That's incredibly small minded of you to say.

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Your said what I wanted to say but a lot nicer. I don't care if I sound harsh over the internets... its the internets. I'm actually kind of happy it gotten so many responses. And yeah I know people who choose the turkey baster and stuff but it just, it insults me. And I mean everyone here always bitches about THERE SHOULD BE A TEST TO BE PARENT!! and when there is one, THIS TEST IS TOO HARD!! in reference to the adoption thing, which I know is some bullshit but still... I'm glad its there.

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(I wouldn't say this, but it COULD be said.)

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I'm not saying adoption is The Only Choice. But if you're going through years and years of expensive, painful (physical AND psychological) treatments, all so you can see yourself in another face? Then maybe you should be exploring some other options if you want a child that badly.

To doggedly pursue something like this for such an extended period of time smacks of selfishness and gobs of money.

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I suck at being female sometimes.

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Also, people are rejected for adoption for a multitude of reasons. It's not just about money. Those reasons don't automatically disqualify their abilities to parent.

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You haven't been around here long, have you?

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It's easy for me to just get on my soapbox about it because I don't want children, but I know I need to learn to respect other women's desires to do so in whatever way they choose. I probably won't understand it, but in the future I will try to respect it.

Stepping down..

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Second. Please don't go around badmouthing people who want to get pregnant or get IFV en mass. You know, I think that, as a general rule, IVF is kind of fucked up. I know it costs a lot of money to adopt, that that it can take a long time; the same is true of IVF, with the added bonus of painful and dangerous medical treatment.

I also think that people who spend thousands of dollars to push their bodies into having kids can be selfish, and are probably doing it simply to re-create their genes. Of course, as biological creatures, we're meant to pass on our genes. So desiring IVF is pretty much a biological impulse for some people.

But 'biological impulse' has never really been enough of an explanation for me, and when people choose IVF without considering adoption, I think it's pretty narcissistic and irresponsible. Irresponsible not just because of the adoptable kids, but because the world is already dangerously over-populated. So when people say things like "it's none of your business," it sort of is, because as a member of the planet, the presence of extra people will affect me.

But since I also recognize that shit is complicated, I try not to say shit like, "that's retarded!" because sometimes, it's the only viable option for people who want babies. As of now, we live in a world with national borders, homophobia, bigotry, classism, and beauracrazy up the wazoo that keeps people from easily raising kids who would be better off with them than in the system getting bounced around and fucked with over and over again. Too bad that's not the world, because then I really wouldn't have a problem saying that I think IVF is unsustainable and irresponsible. As it is, if people want kids, they should be able to get treatment to get them.

I don't feel comfortable saying "women who get IVF to have kids are dumb," but I do think it's ok to say, "IVF as a treatment and abstract concept is dangerous." But because life is hard, and there are plenty of totally valid reasons to get fertility treatments, I am not comfortable being mean to women who choose to do it.

That said, the idea that pregnancy is something that anyone who wants to should be able to experience is total bullshit. Pregnancy might be something that people want to experience, but I don't think that it's necessarily something that should be a right. And I know that can be perverted into some scary and fucked up eugenics stuff, so it's really not a belief that can be implemented in this world (because of aforementioned classism, racism, etc etc that would turn it into eugenics). But in an ideal situation in which adoption was easier, it is far better to adopt than to have a kid just so you can be pregnant. I do think that's a little absurd. The state of pregnancy as a desired end unto itself is creepy and naive; the state of pregnancy is a stage through which people go to have a kid. Do people who think that pregnancy is really that special and important, so much so that they choose to spend lots of money to become so in favor of adopting an already-born kid*, feel like kids who are adopted are less close or important to their parents than kids who are born to their biological parents and then raised by them? I don't think anyone would say that; and if you can recognize that pregnancy doesn't make a difference in your relationship with your child, why is it an ideal state that is privileged over adoption/keeping a kid from being an orphan/being better for the environment?

*Again, recognizing that adoptions aren't all so easy, my statement is qualified by saying that this is an abstract opinion and not necessarily applicable to everyone.

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That said, pregnancy isn't the be-all end-all - I would like to have a kid no matter what, and if I have to adopt, I will. But ideally, I would absolutely love to be pregnant with my future child.

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