New York, 5:58 PM
Wed Dec 2
71 posts in the last 24 hours
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Jezebel 
12/01/09
12/01/09
Take a skinny person who is maintaining an unnatural weight FOR THEIR BODY and highlight their poor hair and nail health, their lower bone density, their low iron, or even their decreased energy levels and inability to sustain short exercise.
Take a fat person who is maintaining an unnatural weight FOR THEIR BODY and highlight the joint stress and damage from carrying their weight, their diabetes, or even their inability to walk a short distance without becoming winded.
Those are failures of healthy at any size. I don't care if you are a size 14 and you have great blood work or if you are 2 and have great blood work. Why is that even a question of an issue? I don't care if you have cancer, that isn't weight related. If we are going to talk about weight related health then people should focus on weight related issues, not the OTHER health issues that are unrelated but for the fact that are in the person being talked about.
End rant.
12/01/09
The focus being on the choices and not the potentially misleading physical appearance. Am I making any sense?
12/01/09
At the end of the day, I don't know anyone who takes issue with a healthy fatty or a healthy skinny- and that is a good thing. However, I am unfortunate enough to know many who are quick to be terrible about an overweight person who has any weight related health issues. So that is an issue I would prefer to see addressed.
12/01/09
12/01/09
When 75% of the American population is expected to be overweight in 2015, you know a HUGE majority are being unhealthy at their size. This point really isn't up for debate.
And according to the American Cancer Society:
"Excess Weight is Linked to 90,000 US Cancer Deaths a Year"
You have no rant, this is senseless dribble at best.
09:34 AM
12/01/09
However, that he didn't take care of himself has nothing to do with FA or HAES. I think she would agree with HAES if she studied it more. The point is that her brother should not have given up health because of his size, and worked on being as healthy as possible within his legitimate limitations. HAES is by no means saying "hey, you obese person, you can be healthy, here's a gold star!" It is not discouraging the considerable hard work it takes to be healthy. It's trying to shift the perception of healthy away from looks alone - since focusing on size instead of actual health is why a lot of dieters fail.
My old therapist had a thyroid condition that caused her to gain 100 + lbs on her naturally thin frame. She didn't stop eating nutritious food and staying active because of this, though. She eventually lost the weight due to medication, but she was never miserable because of her size since she didn't give up on her health.
12/01/09
12/01/09
What does concerning yourself with other people's health do for you?
I'm not a doctor, and I don't want to be one.
12/01/09
However, I think it's quite normal to care whether your family is healthy. My husband's brother recently had a string of health problems related to his weight, culminating in his gall bladder being removed. My husband had tried to talk to his brother several times about his health and his diet and exercise habits, but his concerns went unheeded. I think in some ways, family members and loved ones who express concern do so not only for the benefit of the overweight person, but also for their own benefit so that when something bad does happen, they haven't just stood by and watched.
12/01/09
12/01/09
I would definitely never say anything to a co-worker, casual friend, acquaintance, or stranger about their weight or health, but I would have and have had that conversation with a family member or close friend. And the conversation isn't, "You're fat. You're going to die." It's, "Have you been to the doctor this year? What did he/she say? I'm concerned about you, because I love you and I want you to be around for a long time."
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
That said, there may be a point when it's not the General You, but someone very dear to me who is very unhealthy- not fat, but ill- and then I'd care a great deal.
12/01/09
12/01/09
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12/01/09
Drop dead for all I care, folks! Fat and skinny alike!
;)
12/01/09
12/01/09
[kateharding.net]
[jezebel.com]
12/01/09
HAES and shriver's brother's weight and health battles (and death), really don't have that much to do with each other.
12/01/09
12/01/09
Funny, that.
12/01/09
This hardly seems like someone who hates anyone whose BMI rises above her own. The piece actually read to me like a sister watching her brother repeat behaviors that were undeniably killing him (medical emergency after more serious medical emergency). I would refuse to accept that my brother couldn't change a destructive pattern too, whether it be a drug addiction or some other kind of self-destructive behavior, if it so clearly was killing him. You love your family.
It seems like talking about weight and obesity with blanket statements, and lumping anyone with a BMI over average into one category on which to pass sweeping judgment (health! not healthy! attractive! lazy! curvy! risky!) is counterproductive in all cases. I'm curious to see others' takes on this piece.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
This raises the larger point of whether or not critiques of a movement by people who can't be bothered to even acquire a rudimentary knowledge of what they stand for is worth reading. My personal stance is no. Ignorance is not a defensible position from which to critique anything.
12/01/09
12/01/09
And it's Health At Every Size.
12/01/09
Might I connect you with some of my family members who are in rather desperate need of your wisdom?
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
And while ignorance may not be a position to critique from, I do believe that a lot of people (myself included, I never claimed not to be) are in that pool, and that the name is problematic "healthy" or "health."
12/01/09
12/01/09
I get that you find me hard and mean and petty, but you are attacking a group from a position of either dis- or mis-information, and I'm sorry, I'm sure you don't mean badly, but I do think that your position comes from ignorance. And I think ignorance deserves pettiness, I'm sorry, because it's really pretty fucking awful how many of the comments on this thread mischaracterize the agenda of the HAES movement, and it happens again, and again, and again.
I get that you want to "start a conversation," but your conversation goes down the path of shaming people for being overweight because you believe they are too stupid to know their own health. That's a pretty appalling position to take without backup.
12/01/09
12/01/09
Until there is broader knowledge of this specific group as well as the movement as a whole, I think their name is working against them because ignorant people will dismiss it. Is that the groups fault? No, it's not. But most activists want people to join their movement and not just preach to the choir, and that means having patience for the ignorant, and taking time out to educate them and have constructive conversations without shaming them for their lack of knowledge. Being petty will only alienate potential alliances for the cause.
12/01/09
12/01/09
Similarly, judgingamy, the problem with the "pettiness alienates" is this: it implies that one's alliance with a political program is dependent on how "nice" the movement is to oneself. Which means that we end up, as we are in this thread, spending a whole lot of time attending to the discomfort of the ignorant instead of, y'know, liberating the oppressed. Which, like: oppression is WRONG, whether or not we all are friendly with each other at the clambakes. So you owe these people your alliance whether you feel alienated or not.
I don't mean to dismiss your argument entirely because I understand pragmatics, but what I am saying is that the honourable, "I want to learn" way to approach a debate is to ask questions, read on your own, etc. It is not to arrive with a pre-set position on a subject that is articulated without evidence, loudly proclaim that position, and then get upset when people call you out on not having any support for it. When you take the latter path, you can't blame your opponent in the debate for assuming your bad faith from the get-go.
That's the point. Trust me, I've been in this position before, and I think I'm far better off knowing that sometimes the pettiness is deserved. Particularly when I'm just spouting on the internet to blow off steam, as we often are around here.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
There is a difference between "There are healthy people at every size" and "Every size is healthy for every person."
12/01/09
12/01/09
I just don't see why it has to be either a) you're fat and you always will be no matter what you do so accept it, or b) if you're not a size 2 you're doing something wrong.
I personally don't care what people do to their own bodies, obviously everyone has agency, but be honest. It irritates me when people profess that simple things like exercise are futile. They're not. And if they are? See a doctor.
12/01/09
But that doesn't mean that someone who goes from eating fried food and restaurant food daily to eating smaller portions of healthier fare and working out will not lose weight and keep it off if she keeps at it. She may not lose as much weight as she wants to or expects, she probably won't automatically--poof!--be thin (and she may never be thin!), and she will have to keep doing those things to stay at the lower weight . . . but in most cases, eating less, eating healthier, and working out more DO change your weight. And if you make permanent changes in those habits, you do see permanent changes in your weight.
12/01/09
12/01/09
I don't read fat acceptance blogs, so I can't speak to your point on their reaction to weight loss.
12/01/09
So, 1/5 -- not as bad as I expected, but still a minority.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
I mean, Jesus, it's only in fat acceptance posts that this attitude comes out. I once noted that Gisele Bundchen was terrifyingly thin on Jez and it turned into a shitstorm for the ages, and all sorts of people told me I didn't understand how hurtful that was, etc etc, and probably they were right. But we seem to all agree around here that that sort of stuff isn't helpful because it has nothing to do with anyone's concern for a thin person's health. So pretending this is a health concern here: reprehensible, IMHO.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
The "only freaks of nature maintain weight loss" memo is what bugs me. I think a lot of people in the size acceptance community are naturally bigger and have gotten fed up with the pressure to go to extremes to fit someone else's notion of healthy. But for a lot of people, reasonable measures significantly lower their weight but it is easy to sit on the couch and eat take out. That's why my weight goes up and I'm not the only one.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
You can disagree with my opinion, but I don't think it is reasonable to jump to the conclusion that I am misreading them. I understand the science and I think her criticisms are sometimes incorrect.
12/01/09
Yes, people, this is why your doctors are so mean to you if you're fat. They learn it in med school. *sigh*
12/01/09
12/01/09
On the 10%/BMI thing, it really depends. A 10% loss can shift someone from the overweight category to the healthy category according to BMI and more people are in the overweight category than the obese category. If a woman is 5'2" and 140 her BMI is just over 25. If she loses 10% (14 lbs) her BMI is 23. If someone who is 5'11 goes from 200 to 180, their BMI goes from 28.7 to 25.8.
12/01/09
That's the problem, isn't it? I mean, I gave up coffee and my blood sugar improved. Didn't lose an ounce, though. I am very, very nervous about weight loss - especially surgically induced weight loss - being touted as a panacea. The science about metabolism, weight and health is completely lacking - and until we have decent science, we're relying on prejudice.
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
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12/01/09
I mean, you and I sort of have a vague internet acquaintance, but I can't just agree categorically with you when you refuse to back your position up, no. Maybe that's what you're reading as not receptive, but you are making claims you now claim it would be irrelevant to defend.
12/01/09
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12/01/09
I don't know if it is intentional or not, but reading your comment it sounds like you are accusing me of fat/fat acceptance shaming because I have a less than 100% positive view of fat acceptance blogs. I also have a less than 100% positive view of HuffPo and the DailyKos, but it doesn't mean I hate liberals.
12/01/09
12/01/09
09:48 AM
11:26 AM
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
12/01/09
Yes. I agree. Compulsive overeating is just as dangerous as Anorexia. Both are EDs (in my opinion). I am not saying that everyone who is overweight is a binge eater, but the morbidly obese tend to be.
Most of us have very complex relationships with food.
12/01/09
12/01/09
And just like how many bulimics don't lose weight, many binge eaters don't gain weight.
And that's my take on it as well. If your eating habits are compulsive, whether it's compulsive restricting, or compulsive binging, it's a psychological disorder. It's not about self-control and it has nothing to do with fat acceptance.
12/01/09
The hell it is. I'm a purging type anoretic (and, yes, I binge -- 10,000 calories in an hour kind of binge, not "two bowls of cereal"); my mother is a compulsive overeater. We have completely different pathologies regarding binging. In her case, the binging is not a concentrated, focused act but an attempt to find pleasure, however mindless, that is inevitably futile, and she takes some 'relief' in the shame of the binge. For me? Binging itself is a violent act; there is no attempt to find pleasure but instead to beat the hell out of my body by shoving in as much food as possible at once, either to shove down an unpleasant emotion or because I feel I deserve it. But I binge for the purpose of getting to the purge -- the release of everything through my compensatory mechanism (vomiting), which allows me to maintain the delusion that it's now 'all gone,' the emotion and the food. My mother seeks no such release.
Bulimics (and anoretics) who purge via exercise share a psychological similarity to me, not to my mother -- the purge, while done through exercise, restores a feeling of 'it's okay it's okay it's okay.' I am not saying that compulsive overeaters do not also find a sense of 'it's okay' through the act of binging (as I'm sure some of them do), but I really dislike the lumping in of people who DO NOT PURGE, IN ANY WAY, BY ANY COMPENSATORY MECHANISM (even if that compensatory mechanism is just "If I repeat the words PURPLE MONKEY DISHWATER ten times, that means the food doesn't have calories") with those who walk into binges with a compensatory mechanism set up and may in fact binge solely for the purpose of getting to the point of being able to use that compensatory mechanism.
Some people binge to binge. I binge so that I can purge. My mother finds me as alien as I find her. Whereas her emotional release starts midway through the bag of potato chips, mine doesn't until I've pushed my vomit down the garbage disposal. You can stretch the criteria of ED diagnostics however you'd like to make binging with absolutely no compensatory mechanism a form of bulimia, but you're doing a disservice to both sides: the binge/purge cycle is poorly understood as is and has plenty of variety (some bulimics binge to binge and purge solely to maintain weight, some binge for the emotional release of purging, some purge without traditional binging....); turning compulsive overeating into "oh, bulimia without the purging" is both a reductionist view of the binge/purge experience and inaccurate.
I mean, think about it: I can purge, and that changes everything. I can, therefore, eat to the point where I am seriously afraid of gastric rupture, because I know none of this is staying in. My mother, on the other hand, has no such mechanism. From the outside, I probably look more frenzied while binging, act more desperate; certainly my caloric load is greater. If you didn't know the diagnoses, I assume I'd come off as the compulsive overeater, as I've just spent a considerable number of hours today stuffing my face. But my problem is not that I compulsively overeat in a quest to fill myself with some good feeling or to bury some bad one (or out of malnutrition borne of the western diet); my problem is that I binge so that I can do my 'I'm a teenage drama queen/I'll throw my guts up for self-esteem' routine. Psychologically, I'd be in the same boat if I were using exercise, but it would certainly change my eating habits. When I binge, I binge to the point where I'm pretty much crawling on the ground in agony. If I knew I was eating and then going to the gym... I probably wouldn't eat to that point. Etc.
The diagnostic criteria are one thing; the experience of an ED another. And while I know everyone with an eating disorder can relate to some part of another sufferer's experience, regardless of diagnosis, I think that blurring the lines so much that entirely separate syndromes are shoved in under loosely written and poorly understood diagnostic criteria does no one any good.
12/01/09
I absolutely understand that the motivations are different. As they are for each person with an ED. Which is one of the reasons they're so misunderstood. Not all anorexics are starving to be aesthetically pleasing or conventionally attractive. Sometimes the opposite. Sometimes to avoid developing breasts and hips. And sometimes for other reasons altogether, like controlling households, or depression, etc.
All ED's, though, come back to control. Whether trying to maintain it rigidly through restricting, losing it in the binge, or regaining it via the purge. That's generally the common thread.
Binging does create a euphoric "high", must like fasting will. So there's an element of that in all ED's. It's partly what makes them addictive in behavior.
The reason I mentioned the categorization was to show people that compulsive overeating is, in fact, an ED. Most people don't know that. They hear ED and they just think Anorexia or Bulimia, with absolutely no understanding of what defines either, or the variety of forms most ED's take. It's actually really important we know how these things are defined by psychologists, precisely because they ARE lumping many behaviors together. So people aren't being treated with their individual issues in mind.
I actually think the problem is that we've failed to take into account that ED's are not just one behavior, one pathology, one experience.
So. I'm sorry if you thought I was dismissing ED's, or condoning the limits of the categorization. I can assure you, I'm not.
09/15/09
It is one thing to be healthy and plump but quite another to have poor diet and be overweight. This show highlights women who are the latter. I do not think people should embrace being overweight as serious health problems, like my grandma's, can arise as a result.
09/15/09
FAIL.
you are not the physician, personal trainer, or dietician for any of these people, so stop the madness.
09/16/09
My personal opinion is that being overweight is unhealthy because my grandmother's weight problems contributed to a lot of her health issues. I watched this woman who I loved suffer for years because she was too large to get herself out of a recliner and do simple things like walk, cook or go to the bathroom. It was horrible.
Due to my experiences with my grandma, I will never think that being overweight is healthy. That's my opinion.
09/16/09
But people who use the PC "I'm just concerned for their health" line really only seem to care about how unsightly fat people are.
09/16/09
Also, I would like to add, that if you're going to make a counter argument, it's much better taken when using intelligence and tact. Being defensive, condescending and rude gets you no where when trying to voice your opinions.
"But people who use the PC "I'm just concerned for their health" line really only seem to care about how unsightly fat people are."
-This is your own biased judgement. You believing this, doesn't make it true.
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/16/09
Let me tell you a bit about myself - I eat healthy - my diet consists of fresh veggies, fruits, whole grains and lean proteins. I get good low fat dairy, I drink water like it's going out of style. I have days where I allow myself to eat things that are considered 'bad' by most. Why? Because I enjoy them. I'm not sitting around stuffing my face with Twinkies & Big Macs, or strapping on the feed bag of Ruffles and scarfing Hershey bars like it's a competition.
I exercise daily. If I don't feel like running, I take my kids for a walk or go for a bike ride or hit the gym. I do yoga to feel centered and relaxed. I don't sit around on my ass watching TV and feeling sorry for myself. I ENJOY being active. I like being active.
But you know what? All of that and I'm STILL fat. And in your opinion, unhealthy. Your opinion pisses me off. Yeah, you had experiences with your grandmother that impacted your view, but quite frankly, I will call bullshit on your painting all people that are overweight with the same 'fat = unhealthy' brush. I think it is hurtful, insulting and close-minded.
It also leads me to question - do you weigh exactly what the FDA tells you that you should for your height? Do you eat a perfectly healthy diet? Do you exercise daily? Are you a bastion of perfection in all that you do? No? Stop throwing stones ...
Just because people are overweight does NOT mean that they are unhealthy.
09/16/09
Man, I could go on and on!
09/16/09
having an opinion is one thing. taking your opinion and applying it to people whose personal health histories you do not even know is RUDE.
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/16/09
09/15/09
In other words, we've made it extremely easy for the average person to live a sedentary life, eating less-than-healthy food, driving everywhere, and we've started to instill that value from childhood. This is about bigger change than what individuals eat.
We can fix it. Let's get going on that. Quit acting like a tool and blaming/shaming people for behaving the exact way we've set them up to behave, and start setting them up to behave in a different way. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
09/15/09
09/15/09
09/15/09
I didn't even get into how a lot of people just don't have cooking skills anymore. Or time to cook. Of course, someone always pipes in that they have 6.5 seconds per day to cook, but they always manage to put out a fat-free, salt-free, sugar-free, gluten-free, cost-free vegetarian feast for their family of twenty, single-handed, after working fourteen hours at their job hand-digging trenches. I think it's hard for us to see ourselves as outside the average just by virtue of posting here, and I suspect an awful lot of people never give their cooking/eating/exercise situation a second thought. That's why I'm so adamant that we need to make life different and better for those people, not just those of us who put a lot of thought/time/money into this.
09/15/09
09/16/09
Frozen veggies aren't practical if you can't buy them in a nearby store, as they melt, or if you don't have the freezer room. Canned veggies can also be a pain if you have to lug them in large amounts. And to buy bulk grains, you need a store that sell bulk grains nearby - again, in some areas that's not a reality. The whole economy needs to change for people to be doing the things you suggest - which are all good ideas, but just not very practical in many areas. That needs to change! And it can't just be changed by individuals changing their eating habits in the ways you suggest - it's got be a huge adjustment in how food culture and the economy works in North America.
And even with all that healthy living, a lot of women will never be a size 4 and a lot of men will never be a size 30, because they're simply not built or programmed that way. Society not only has to adjust how the food economy works, but what the "ideal" is.
09/16/09
09/15/09
the reality is there are massive health issues associated with carrying excess weight and from heart disease to osteoporosis.
people who are large are people and deserve the same level of respect. I don't dislike them or think it's right to make fun of them but being overweight is not positive and is unhealthy. And i had three relatives die of heart disease caused by bad diet and carrying excess weight before they were 44.
there is a good reason why the obesity rates in Europe are drastically lower then in America. They are active and don't eat all the crap. Being overweight should be frowned upon by society. It's not a healthy way to live.
09/15/09
09/15/09
09/15/09
if she made the personal choice to risk her health and be overweight. Then it's his or her fault.
But again i see you don't rebut the fact that being overweight is healthy and that it's Americans that have the obesity problems. It's not a body image issue it's a stop eating poorly and start excercising. Nobody but other women and gay dudes reading womens magazines expect other women to be super models. Besides models are rail thin and hideous. Real men tend to like a figure. But a figure does not mean fat. It means hourglass. it means big but little waist. It doesn't mean shaped like a pear. Regardless it's unhealthy and should not be rationalized away short of a person having a medical issue. This in no way is justification for being rude to people or ridiculing them in the street. But these people need to stop rationalizing away bad health choices.
09/15/09
09/15/09
And, sorry find me a doctor that says some guy that is obese is healthy and i'll show you someone that needs to have his license revoked.
this isn't dangerous territory. What's dangerous is the increase chance of diabetes that that eating crap food and lack of exercise give you. Sorry the look at the crap these people in this clip are eating. One of the commentators objects to them "showing" them eating. She should object to the utter crap that they are eating. What is that in the last frame? a chocolate covered frozen banana. Do you know the sugar and saturated fat that's in that crap. See she should be complaining about that diet. That's whay people in this thread should be mad at. That this women is not eating correctly and doing all she can to not be the best she can but instead is eating poorly. Sure there are people with medical issues but most people with weight issues in America don't have a thyroid issue. They just eat more calories in a day then they burn.
09/15/09
Likewise, when I mentioned thin people eating poorly I wasn't talking about anorexics. There are plenty of thin people who fit into society's exacting aesthetic standards simply because they look right when if you examined their diet you'd see they are actually fairly unhealthy.
On the other hand, it's incredibly simplistic for you to assume that all overweight people are gorging on chocolate covered bananas coated in peanuts and sitting on their fat asses with a box of fried chicken in one hand and a tub of lard in the other.
And pardon me, but you're going to judge how this woman eats based on one screen shot? God forbid a fat person eats anything sweet or *sotto voice* naughty! Please.
To clarify, I never suggested being overweight was unhealthy or a real problem. I said that having a poor diet + excessive weight was probably not the sign of a healthy person IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as having a poor diet and being thin is probably also not healthy. The difference is that people like you would never assume the thin person is unhealthy simply because you can't point at it and shriek 'fat! fat!'
09/15/09