It seems like looking at marriage practices from times past is always strange (this book is a little more than strange...).
Love is love, sex is sex, money is money. But marriage has represented all these things and more. At times the ideal has been to marry for love, or to marry to move up in life, to make an advantageous power-play for the sake of your family. To keep the family name going within itself. Now it seems the ideal is to marry for love, but also to seek all fulfillment from the person you marry - you're supposed to find your "soul mate." It's funny, isn't it, that it's just another arrangement that we've told ourselves is the one right choice, when we've had several "right choices" throughout history and across cultures?
I'm not advocating for a return to marriage where women were treated like property, but I do think it's interesting to see how much the expectations of marriage have changed across time. In some ways, it seems like there would be less pressure if we weren't encouraged to find "THE ONE" and live "HAPPILY EVER AFTER" only to have our dreams shattered when we find our expectations were set too high. #whenyoumarry
The notion wives should be a 'useless ornament' actually dates back to the Victorian Era. It was considered a status symbol to have a wife that had no skills and did no work. Servants cooked and cleaned and raised the children, while the husband 'brought home the bacon'. The Victorian wife was just expected to be lovely and embroider and draw and condescend to the poor....and have no marketable job skills or earn a wage. Before that women were in all the trades and did just about every job there was but heavy plowing. (Even though I have heard and have seen women being used as a mule to pull a plow so they did that job too.) Before the Victorian Era, with exception to the titled, most women were expected to be able to farm or garden, preserve food and seed, cook, clean, raise animals for meat and cloth (along with butchering them), spin wool into yarn, weave it, sew it into clothes and bedding, chop fire wood, keep the fire going, raise and educate the children, and help out their husband in whatever trade they made their living at.
The 50's housewife 'tradition' is just a re-tread of that rather Victorian ideal. #whenyoumarry
@Vulcan Has No Moon: Yes, thank you. And in fact in the pre-depression era there was a mini-cultural revolution of its own sorts. After all that was the era woman cut their hair, decided wearing twenty undergarments stunk and often worked outside of the home in a variety of jobs. I've seen quite a few interesting pre-code films that actually dealt with the idea of the bored rich housewife that didn't like being an ornament and plenty of literature of the day followed suit.
It was more "what work was good for each gender" that ruled the day as opposed to "women shouldn't work."
It was really the generation after WW2 that decided it needed to go back to a "simpler time" that never really existed. #whenyoumarry
That eugenics chart just made me gasp out loud. The scientist in me is laughing uproariously at the idea that skin color is a single gene trait. The human being in me is just plain old horrified. #whenyoumarry
@girlwithoutahero: to clarify, it is horrible. But I keep it on the bookshelf because the title spine alone sets fear in the eyes of boys #whenyoumarry
OK, deep breath because I am going to admit something I have only admitted to one other person.
I've been married to my husband for 10+ years and sometimes the thought of sex with him really is revolting. Not all the time, just sometimes. Am I a terrible wife? #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I have never been married but my thought is no - you aren't. Sex is such an intimate act (and if I actually think about it, a little on the gross side) that I can see sometimes it just isn't very appealing depending on life circumstances. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I hope not. I think that long term partners have a way of being over-intimate that can only lead to revulsion. I can't talk to you about your constipation problems, pick up your socks for the 5,000th time, and want to make with the sexy all the time. Nature of the beast. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Nup. You're just a person with feelings. I guess one question I'd ask is, is the thought of sex WITH HIM or the the thought of SEX with him the revolting part? Not that that determines whether you're terrible. Basically, if it worries you, try to talk it over with a therapist and work out why you're feeling that way and what you could do about it. #whenyoumarry
@kiwibelle: There are moments when sex of any kind, with any person, seems revolting. It's not that different from hunger--sometimes eating your favorite food(for example) almost makes you want to puke. #whenyoumarry
@Elaken: Oh thank goodness. Growing up with my father I was constantly bombarded with the male pov. I heard constant complaining from his buddies about frigid wives and lack of sex. So I am very self conscience about it.
I love my husband. We have sex quite often but sometimes the thought of sexual intimacy is actually disgusting. I feel kind of awful about this but the one other person I spoke to it about (also married 10+) said she feels the same way sometimes. It isn't personal. #whenyoumarry
@lavendermint: This is a fantastic point. It's been so long since I've been single that I unthinkingly assumed that all single people want sex all the time. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: No. I've been married four months (together 6+) and I occasionally feel the same way. Sex drive is so hormone and emotionally driven, I don't think it has anything to do with him, or with me. #whenyoumarry
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Married almost seven years. There are times of the month where my attitude is "OK, we can do it, but don't put your face near my face." I think as long as you don't feel like that all of the time, you're fine.
It's easy to forget that for women, sex drive really is cyclical, whereas men's is fairly constant. For some reason, we tend to just assume that women have a low sex drive and then we read all of those awful magazine articles about how to "fix" it. Yuck. #whenyoumarry
I think that graph looks like a dinosaur and consequently feel like this view gives the graph more creedence (maybe it's because I was weaned later). Love Experiece! Chomp Chomp Chomp... #whenyoumarry
I did a lot of found footage work with Duvall-Hill film strips (there's at least one that goes along with this curriculum).
I have a weird fascination with them. I find them interesting and kind of hate that they get thrown into the "wacky news" category, when they're this cool little peek into social controls of the past. It's like letters from Big Brother. Maybe I'm just a geek about source material type stuff.
If you're looking for more fun go to archive.org and search for "Boys Beware!" to learn about the homosexual and his disease.
Breamworthy promoted this comment
Edited by Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! at 10/21/09 7:16 PM
Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! was starred
Lizard in the Wires now with even MORE metal in the face! was unstarred
I have a DVD series-- The Educational Archives-- that has all those old film clips. I got it after being captivated by the hygiene films that MST3K used to mock. One that I remember vividly was about the importance of having good posture, and that you should have a "posture pal" at school to help each other remind to stand up straight. #whenyoumarry
@formergr: lol I've seen that one! I've seen SO many of them. A lot of times when random places (especially Colbert Report and Daily Show) use stock 50's footage I can name the strip it was from. #whenyoumarry
@Sunshineyness: I've seen that one too. That one is more of a time capsule of teen car culture, and how much more trusting people were (because you lived in the suburbs where it was "safe" to babysit for total strangers). #whenyoumarry
@curiousgeorgiana: i think the subtle message this particular totally scientific flow chart is conveying is that if you marry outside your race your kids will look like African masks. #whenyoumarry
Okay, a true story that maybe was told to me as a parable:
My granny, when she was very old and knew she didn't have much time left - I was about 6 - told me the story of a family in her village in Ireland (this is practically the turn of the 20th century) A big farm family, all sons, all big and strong. and then a little girl was born, and they were so happy to finally have a girl...but she was sick, a congential heart problem. She lived a few years, and then she finally died. And my grandmother told me "and you know, it was a blessing, because she just would never have had a very good life....sometimes, babies just shouldn't be born, or if they are, they shouldn't live because they won't have a good life. Do you understand me?".
Her thoughts on human development were also laden with racism:
"It is said that a fish as large as a man has a brain no larger than the kernel of an almond. In all fish and reptiles where there is no great brain development, there is also no conscious sexual control. The lower down in the scale of human development we go the less sexual control we find. It is said that the aboriginal Australian, the lowest known species of the human family, just a step higher than the chimpanzee in brain development, has so little sexual control that police authority alone prevents him from obtaining sexual satisfaction on the streets.[17]"
eeeh...kinda racist.
I don't see anything about "individual" aboriginals, as if that would help.
The overuse of the term "Nazi" in the U.S. makes me really think that the European conception of freedom of speech is more effective in terms of preventing hate speech.
Labeling someone a Nazi is suggesting that violence against that person is somehow justified. So it makes sense to have those who misuse the term face legal consequences.
Nazism should be used to specifically refer, well, to Nazism. In other cases, people should simply describe why a phenomenon they are criticizing is morally objectionable. Describe, not compare. Because if you overuse the term "Nazi," you act as if inspired by Nazi propaganda tactics.
There are buildings at Harvard named after leading eugenicists who taught there or donated (Louis Agassiz, I'm looking at you.) It was indeed an endemic belief. My favorite rebuttal to the Sanger-as-eugenicist fallacy went to a Catholic friend who doesn't feel the need to check her forwards for facts. I went to that old Catholic encyclopedia that's online (you know the one if you ever get into arguments with Catholic hard liners; I won't link to it) and looked up "eugenics." Guess which worldwide religion based in Rome was A-OK with eugenics in 1918?
@sheistolerable: Oh, lady, I wish I could promote this twice over.
Damn, I worry I'm like that friend sometimes...passionate about things without knowing all the details and likely to end up with egg on my face....I almost feel sorry for her.
That's why this angry lapsed Catholic will never...well...use religion to spearhead a point. as so many complacent assholes (far more powerful than your friend) do, so glib to discuss how important family planning is.
The intellectual dishonesty of the equation of birth control and "eugenics" at face value is criminal and enrages me. Do the people who argue against it and slander those like Sanger know how important birth control is in changing how we look at health, at the amount of parenting we should put into our children now that we can have smaller families but still be intimate? What's wrong with being conscientious about children (without having to totally abstain from sex)? Do thy give a shit what BC means to women--the ones who usually bore the brunt of sex when it results in conception (and considering we're the ones who get pregnant....still do)?
"Eugenics" was as broad and varied a movement as "feminism", and because the supporters of the worst aspects of this movement tended to be the most vocal, it has a negative connotation that many people are unable to look past. While many people were encouraging wealthier, "better" people to have as many babies as they could, and encouraging forced sterilization and infanticide for the lower classes, Margaret Sanger stated that the only way to progress was for ALL women to be able to chose when they became pregnant, and not be continually forced to bear children they couldn't support or didn't want.
Yes, some of her language is appalling by today's standards, but times have to be taken into account. If you look past it she was really astonishingly ahead of the curve
10/22/09
Love is love, sex is sex, money is money. But marriage has represented all these things and more. At times the ideal has been to marry for love, or to marry to move up in life, to make an advantageous power-play for the sake of your family. To keep the family name going within itself. Now it seems the ideal is to marry for love, but also to seek all fulfillment from the person you marry - you're supposed to find your "soul mate." It's funny, isn't it, that it's just another arrangement that we've told ourselves is the one right choice, when we've had several "right choices" throughout history and across cultures?
I'm not advocating for a return to marriage where women were treated like property, but I do think it's interesting to see how much the expectations of marriage have changed across time. In some ways, it seems like there would be less pressure if we weren't encouraged to find "THE ONE" and live "HAPPILY EVER AFTER" only to have our dreams shattered when we find our expectations were set too high. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
The 50's housewife 'tradition' is just a re-tread of that rather Victorian ideal. #whenyoumarry
10/22/09
It was more "what work was good for each gender" that ruled the day as opposed to "women shouldn't work."
It was really the generation after WW2 that decided it needed to go back to a "simpler time" that never really existed. #whenyoumarry
10/22/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
I've been married to my husband for 10+ years and sometimes the thought of sex with him really is revolting. Not all the time, just sometimes. Am I a terrible wife? #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
Just to clarify I mean about a week before the event and the week after I totally am NOT in the mood.
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
I love my husband. We have sex quite often but sometimes the thought of sexual intimacy is actually disgusting. I feel kind of awful about this but the one other person I spoke to it about (also married 10+) said she feels the same way sometimes. It isn't personal. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
It's easy to forget that for women, sex drive really is cyclical, whereas men's is fairly constant. For some reason, we tend to just assume that women have a low sex drive and then we read all of those awful magazine articles about how to "fix" it. Yuck. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
it appears this 50's suburban WASPs did as well! #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
I have a weird fascination with them. I find them interesting and kind of hate that they get thrown into the "wacky news" category, when they're this cool little peek into social controls of the past. It's like letters from Big Brother. Maybe I'm just a geek about source material type stuff.
If you're looking for more fun go to archive.org and search for "Boys Beware!" to learn about the homosexual and his disease.
10/21/09
I have a DVD series-- The Educational Archives-- that has all those old film clips. I got it after being captivated by the hygiene films that MST3K used to mock. One that I remember vividly was about the importance of having good posture, and that you should have a "posture pal" at school to help each other remind to stand up straight. #whenyoumarry
10/21/09
10/22/09
BTW, the "Girls Beware!" rebuttal is all sorts of horrific (though not about lesbianism) as well.
I got a collection of cult classics off of Amazon a bit back and it was a great collection of awesome scare films from the 30's-50's.
10/22/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/21/09
08/25/09
My granny, when she was very old and knew she didn't have much time left - I was about 6 - told me the story of a family in her village in Ireland (this is practically the turn of the 20th century) A big farm family, all sons, all big and strong. and then a little girl was born, and they were so happy to finally have a girl...but she was sick, a congential heart problem. She lived a few years, and then she finally died. And my grandmother told me "and you know, it was a blessing, because she just would never have had a very good life....sometimes, babies just shouldn't be born, or if they are, they shouldn't live because they won't have a good life. Do you understand me?".
I didn't then. I do now.
Whatever.
08/25/09
"It is said that a fish as large as a man has a brain no larger than the kernel of an almond. In all fish and reptiles where there is no great brain development, there is also no conscious sexual control. The lower down in the scale of human development we go the less sexual control we find. It is said that the aboriginal Australian, the lowest known species of the human family, just a step higher than the chimpanzee in brain development, has so little sexual control that police authority alone prevents him from obtaining sexual satisfaction on the streets.[17]"
eeeh...kinda racist.
I don't see anything about "individual" aboriginals, as if that would help.
[en.wikipedia.org]
08/25/09
08/25/09
Labeling someone a Nazi is suggesting that violence against that person is somehow justified. So it makes sense to have those who misuse the term face legal consequences.
Nazism should be used to specifically refer, well, to Nazism. In other cases, people should simply describe why a phenomenon they are criticizing is morally objectionable. Describe, not compare. Because if you overuse the term "Nazi," you act as if inspired by Nazi propaganda tactics.
08/25/09
08/25/09
Damn, I worry I'm like that friend sometimes...passionate about things without knowing all the details and likely to end up with egg on my face....I almost feel sorry for her.
That's why this angry lapsed Catholic will never...well...use religion to spearhead a point. as so many complacent assholes (far more powerful than your friend) do, so glib to discuss how important family planning is.
The intellectual dishonesty of the equation of birth control and "eugenics" at face value is criminal and enrages me. Do the people who argue against it and slander those like Sanger know how important birth control is in changing how we look at health, at the amount of parenting we should put into our children now that we can have smaller families but still be intimate? What's wrong with being conscientious about children (without having to totally abstain from sex)? Do thy give a shit what BC means to women--the ones who usually bore the brunt of sex when it results in conception (and considering we're the ones who get pregnant....still do)?
Nope.
Fuck 'em.
08/25/09
Yes, some of her language is appalling by today's standards, but times have to be taken into account. If you look past it she was really astonishingly ahead of the curve