I was randomly thinking about this this morning- how little equality there is in the workforce and how to change it. I honestly feel like what needs to happen is wider acceptance of women in non-powered but typically male positions, not necessarily political positions of power, and vice versa. What I mean is, until we reach equality in our road crews, landscaping teams, and construction crews, as well as in our domestic and service work positions (more men in those), we simply won't see more women being elected because people will still see others in terms of proscribed gender roles. Sort of a bottom-up mentality, I guess. It just seems like no matter how many female senators we have, people will still see women as belonging in the home if all housekeepers are women and still see men as tough if all cops are men because gender stereotypes are continually being subconsciously reinforced on a daily basis and it's very easy to write off those female senators as exceptions to the general rule.
But then again, I haven't studied this and it was before coffee.
@slowpoke.r: Well, that might be happening now. I don't know about everyone else but my boyfriend, while not unemployed per se, is currently working from home.
Coming home to dishes done and dinner made is nice but he blew my mind the other night when he told me he wanted to stay home with our future kids. I am a lawyer and I love my job though recently I've started worrying that I wouldn't be ready for kids until it was too late. The thought that he'd want to stay home with the kids never crossed my mind (even though he's MUCH better equiped to spend ten hours a day with children).
The rethinking of gender roles could be the silver lining of a crap economy.
@PetiteGal: Hm. It's a class issue, perhaps- are girls being encouraged to go into white collar fields, or are people who have the access and education to get white collar jobs more likely to support equality, or at least make a show of it? I really don't know.
In terms of the types of jobs I'm talking about, I'd say there definitely is a physical strength bias as well as a protect-the-little-women mentality that helps keep these jobs gender specific, as well as very limiting concepts about what is "manly" or appropriate work for men. The former biases ignore the fact that women are much more likely to experience violence in their lives already, as well as the fact that domestic work is often just as labor intensive, if not more so, than traditionally male labor-oriented jobs. Those are really based on nothing more than gender roles and they aren't challenged by making a woman the head of the County Works Department, because no matter how capable she is she will still be seen as a token or an exception. The only way to change them is by employing more women and more men in jobs that are currently seen as belonging almost completely, if not completely, to the other gender.
@winner: That's awesome. My bro stayed at home for a couple years with his kids and it really does help people reconsider their own notions of what is and isn't appropriate. I hope you're right about the silver lining.
Many Nordic countries also have a lot of social programs designed to aid working mothers -- for instance, paternity leave and universal daycare. I imagine that this is a huge factor in their advances.
Gender equality nearly exists in Scandinavia because both men and women understand the secret of lutefisk and aren't afraid to use it against the other group. It sounds all peaceful and fun and stuff, but it's really more like the Cuban missle crisis than Utopia.
Well for one thing they're smaller and lack the diversity of the UK and the US. You can get more progressive legislation through if an overwhelming majority think the same way and have the same needs.
@Jessi Ramsey: Smaller, less diverse, more economically stable (well, not Iceland, at least not since the banks collapsed), more peaceful...the list goes on and on.
@athenaswisdom: But economically stable and more peaceful for whom? The Minister for Integration and Gender Equality in Sweden has a bias against Muslims. Doesn't really sound like equality efforts are being made for anyone but the majority to me. That isn't different from other countries.
@Jessi Ramsey: Hey, she IS a muslim! (This is NOT about beliefs - it's about your right to impose various restrictions on others, based on your beliefs.)
She has just been very clear that we do not want - for example - separate divorce laws based on religious beliefs (muslim or other) in our country, nor do we condone, say, female circumcision.
If the law says that you are not allowed to spank children, you cannot ask for an exception based on your religious beliefs.
If you think that boys and girls should not go to school together, or that girls should not participate in e g swimming education (mandatory!), or be taught religion (the subject treats all religions as well as humanism/athesim equally in our schools) or find out about where babies come from (mandatory as well) - well, forget it.
Don't try to use religion as an argument - REGARDLESS of whether you're christian (any flavour), muslim, judaeic, mormon, scientologist, bahai... (And home schooling does not exist in our country.)
I might as well ask if you have a bias against women? Black women? Immigrants? Highly educated women? Liberals? Female ministers? People who consider religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to be something personal and private? Female muslims who do not believe in sharia? Any or all of the above?
Then you'd find good company in some of the crazy right-wing christians in our country - they don't like her type either.
But I'm willing to assume that you just forgot to look up the facts.
@littlegreenalien: Yes, I as an educated black woman who is the daughter of immigrants have an issue with black women, the educated, ministers and immigrants.
Separation of church and state is one thing. Protecting women against violence, I am absolutely for that. But saying that Muslims who pray 5 times a day or wear the veil are limiting their opportunities and preventing themselves from "assimilating" is promoting hegemony.
Also, the minster's mother is Muslim but she was raised as non-religious.
@Dalinae: [www.nytimes.com]
I agree with her that people misread what "freedom of religion" means, genital mutilation and other anti female practices are things to not be tolerated in any society. But Muslims who live the book of Koran are limiting their opportunities? Living the word of the Koran can manifest a belief ranging from conservative to progressive feminism. She's painting Islam with one brush.
She also subscribes to the 'complaining about discrimination is making one's self into a victim' school of thinking. She believes Muslims marginalize themselves. How can someone who believes that take the issues/complaints of immigrants and/or minorities seriously?
@Jessi Ramsey: Yeah, she's a bit out there. That's one thing about previously-disadvantaged bootstrap people: they either get a lot more compassion for groups out of the mainstream or way, way less.
It is so inhuman that people fight so hard to deny other people rights that would have zero effect on them, and that they themselves enjoy. So depressing. #gaymarriagemaine
Referendum 71 "The Everything But Marriage Act" has a slim lead in Washington State! Why isn't there any national coverage of this, if it passes we will be the first state to give gay couples these kinds of rights.
As a straight ally, I don't want to co-opt any LGBT person's legitimate frustration today, which like election day when the news about Prop 8 hit here in CA, was devastating for anyone with any sense of justice...but I firmly believe we'll get there.
It should be now, of course. No one should have to wait for equality. It's disgusting and unfair that civil rights issues like this take as long as they do, have as many setbacks as they do, and require so much work and frustration and disillusion.
There's no way to change every mind, but it's heartbreaking to see something that should never, ever, be up to popular vote...be legitimized in some way and go counter to the basic tenants of our system. Which is that the rights of the minority should NEVER be subject to the whims of the majority. That is a fundamental issue in our system. The fact that many people seem to believe they have the right to decide what version of equality other people get to have saddens me. Something is broken in anyone who believes that.
I wish I could tell my LGBT friends that this will change soon. That this fight will not have to go on for years, or decades, and we'll see this in our lifetimes. I hope that we will. I think we move for change in the world faster than we used to. I can only hope we do. And continue to fight for it.
Bigotry will, I think, always exist. But we can't ever let it dictate our lives and access to equality. So we'll always have to fight. And though it's frustrating and discouraging...it's worth it.
@tiredfairy: Well at least it was only 53% not ... 83%, you know? 20 years from now people are going to look at events like this and say, "Grandma & Grandpa, WHAT THE FUCK were you thinking??" #gaymarriagemaine
On one last note, these were my favorite factual retorts to the Yes on 1 arguments of "protect marriage and the family in Maine:"
Maine has the 2nd highest divorce rate in the country (only beaten by Nevada).
Maine allows first cousins to marry.
Maine recognizes the Universal Life Church (that free site on the internet) for marriages. And lawyers. Virtually anyone can perform a marriage ceremony in Maine.
30% of Maine children are born out of wedlock.
Now, I'm not concerned by any of those except the cousins part, but what pristine institution of marriage are the Yes on 1 people referring to? #gaymarriagemaine
@quailpop: Why are you concerned about the 'cousins' part? Most countries allow first cousins to marry, genetic problems in offspring of cousin-marriages are very rare, and I've seen estimates as high as one in three marriages in the world occur between cousins. #gaymarriagemaine
@Vidya108: Yep. The chances of having genetic issues are about 2-3% for any given couple, and with first cousins it's only 4-6% (2nd or more cousins drop back down to the average). With genetic counselling, I see no reason for concern--except that I'd be super squicked to marry any of MY cousins. I expect a lot of people feel that way about my being in a same-sex relationship! #gaymarriagemaine
@Her Grace: Ok, it still sounds like a small percent, but 4-6% is actually two times 2-3%. Twice as likely. You are 100% more likely to have a genetic disorder if your parents are first cousins than if they aren't. I find that significant.
Nevertheless, I see you are right to point out that I am prejudiced against first cousins marrying and making babies. #gaymarriagemaine
@quailpop: Some communities have much higher rates than average, like Ashkenazi Jews or the Amish, but they still marry and have kids. I guess I just can't see a problem as long as there's genetic counseling so the couple knows what they're getting into (and can possibly decide to use IUI or IVF so they can screen their embryos)--frankly, I wish it was less expensive so everyone could do it. #gaymarriagemaine
The funny thing is, we aren't waiting for bigots to change their minds. We're waiting for them to die out, literally. There are bigots in every generation, but I think the majority are older people who don't get that the evil lies spread before referendums are just that: lies. #gaymarriagemaine
@midwestdesigner: I thought of that earlier, and it made me incredibly sad. Sad that I momentarily looked forward to a time when "they" are all gone, and sad that it has to be that way, that so many people are so closed-minded and scared and unwilling to admit that they're afraid and ignorant. #gaymarriagemaine
I don't get why this even gets to be on the ballot. I live in a place where there is still Klan- they don't get to put "Ban Black people" on the ballot. We don't get to vote on everything we do or don't like. #gaymarriagemaine
I'm probably of the unpopular opinion that people should be fighting for civil unions rather than marriage due to idiots still latching on that what they consider the true definition of marriage.
Fight for the rights associated with marriage, go for civil unions, worry about semantics later.
And hopefully they go to SCOTUS for this. I'm tired having to read shit like this every year. Leaving the rights of the minority to the majority is just pointless. #gaymarriagemaine
@MmSM: While I personally think that marriages should be taken out of the legal system entirely and replaced with civil unions (those who want to get married can, but we take the religious ties out of the law)... this will probably never happen. It's not just semantics; it's the symbolism of being accepted as more than a deviant or a second-class citizen. Marriage-- not just the rights associated with it-- is the highest form of honor placed on a relationship by society and the law, and we want to be acknowledged as equals in that. #gaymarriagemaine
@myevilempire: I hear you. For example, our state has registered domestic partnerships for gay couples instead of marriage. During the family law section of bar review, our instructor kept having to say "marriage - and registered domestic partnerships" every time we talked about marriage law. Having to trip your tongue over some poorly-understood, clunky phraseology when "marriage" is universally understood to mean the same thing (and is simpler!) is part of those intangible benefits that are denied to second-class citizens when a system is run separate-but-equally. #gaymarriagemaine
@MmSM: We can't worry about semantics later. If that later ever comes, bigots will be able to say, "But you have all the rights of marriage, why do you need that word? It's our special word!" #gaymarriagemaine
When will people learn that justice and equality is NOT dictated by democracy. It is dictated by basic human rights which is irrefutable.
I'm a heterosexual woman and I don't see how gay marriage would send the US to hell in a handbasket. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against gay marriage that doesn't basically boil down to "traditional marriage would be destroyed" and/or "the bible says so!" #gaymarriagemaine
@Ms.RantyPants: i agree completely. if segregation and black disenfranchisement had been put to a vote in alabama in 1964, it would have been overwhelmingly upheld. the majority does not have the right to limit the rights of a minority group. that is why they are called rights. #gaymarriagemaine
11/18/09
But then again, I haven't studied this and it was before coffee.
11/18/09
Coming home to dishes done and dinner made is nice but he blew my mind the other night when he told me he wanted to stay home with our future kids. I am a lawyer and I love my job though recently I've started worrying that I wouldn't be ready for kids until it was too late. The thought that he'd want to stay home with the kids never crossed my mind (even though he's MUCH better equiped to spend ten hours a day with children).
The rethinking of gender roles could be the silver lining of a crap economy.
11/18/09
@PetiteGal: Hm. It's a class issue, perhaps- are girls being encouraged to go into white collar fields, or are people who have the access and education to get white collar jobs more likely to support equality, or at least make a show of it? I really don't know.
In terms of the types of jobs I'm talking about, I'd say there definitely is a physical strength bias as well as a protect-the-little-women mentality that helps keep these jobs gender specific, as well as very limiting concepts about what is "manly" or appropriate work for men. The former biases ignore the fact that women are much more likely to experience violence in their lives already, as well as the fact that domestic work is often just as labor intensive, if not more so, than traditionally male labor-oriented jobs. Those are really based on nothing more than gender roles and they aren't challenged by making a woman the head of the County Works Department, because no matter how capable she is she will still be seen as a token or an exception. The only way to change them is by employing more women and more men in jobs that are currently seen as belonging almost completely, if not completely, to the other gender.
@winner: That's awesome. My bro stayed at home for a couple years with his kids and it really does help people reconsider their own notions of what is and isn't appropriate. I hope you're right about the silver lining.
11/18/09
11/18/09
11/18/09
11/18/09
11/18/09
11/18/09
She has just been very clear that we do not want - for example - separate divorce laws based on religious beliefs (muslim or other) in our country, nor do we condone, say, female circumcision.
If the law says that you are not allowed to spank children, you cannot ask for an exception based on your religious beliefs.
If you think that boys and girls should not go to school together, or that girls should not participate in e g swimming education (mandatory!), or be taught religion (the subject treats all religions as well as humanism/athesim equally in our schools) or find out about where babies come from (mandatory as well) - well, forget it.
Don't try to use religion as an argument - REGARDLESS of whether you're christian (any flavour), muslim, judaeic, mormon, scientologist, bahai... (And home schooling does not exist in our country.)
I might as well ask if you have a bias against women? Black women? Immigrants? Highly educated women? Liberals? Female ministers? People who consider religious beliefs (or lack thereof) to be something personal and private? Female muslims who do not believe in sharia? Any or all of the above?
Then you'd find good company in some of the crazy right-wing christians in our country - they don't like her type either.
But I'm willing to assume that you just forgot to look up the facts.
11/18/09
11/18/09
Separation of church and state is one thing. Protecting women against violence, I am absolutely for that. But saying that Muslims who pray 5 times a day or wear the veil are limiting their opportunities and preventing themselves from "assimilating" is promoting hegemony.
Also, the minster's mother is Muslim but she was raised as non-religious.
11/18/09
I agree with her that people misread what "freedom of religion" means, genital mutilation and other anti female practices are things to not be tolerated in any society. But Muslims who live the book of Koran are limiting their opportunities? Living the word of the Koran can manifest a belief ranging from conservative to progressive feminism. She's painting Islam with one brush.
She also subscribes to the 'complaining about discrimination is making one's self into a victim' school of thinking. She believes Muslims marginalize themselves. How can someone who believes that take the issues/complaints of immigrants and/or minorities seriously?
11/19/09
#tips
11/18/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
It should be now, of course. No one should have to wait for equality. It's disgusting and unfair that civil rights issues like this take as long as they do, have as many setbacks as they do, and require so much work and frustration and disillusion.
There's no way to change every mind, but it's heartbreaking to see something that should never, ever, be up to popular vote...be legitimized in some way and go counter to the basic tenants of our system. Which is that the rights of the minority should NEVER be subject to the whims of the majority. That is a fundamental issue in our system. The fact that many people seem to believe they have the right to decide what version of equality other people get to have saddens me. Something is broken in anyone who believes that.
I wish I could tell my LGBT friends that this will change soon. That this fight will not have to go on for years, or decades, and we'll see this in our lifetimes. I hope that we will. I think we move for change in the world faster than we used to. I can only hope we do. And continue to fight for it.
Bigotry will, I think, always exist. But we can't ever let it dictate our lives and access to equality. So we'll always have to fight. And though it's frustrating and discouraging...it's worth it.
Don't give up.
11/04/09
11/04/09
Maine has the 2nd highest divorce rate in the country (only beaten by Nevada).
Maine allows first cousins to marry.
Maine recognizes the Universal Life Church (that free site on the internet) for marriages. And lawyers. Virtually anyone can perform a marriage ceremony in Maine.
30% of Maine children are born out of wedlock.
Now, I'm not concerned by any of those except the cousins part, but what pristine institution of marriage are the Yes on 1 people referring to? #gaymarriagemaine
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
Nevertheless, I see you are right to point out that I am prejudiced against first cousins marrying and making babies. #gaymarriagemaine
11/06/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
Fight for the rights associated with marriage, go for civil unions, worry about semantics later.
And hopefully they go to SCOTUS for this. I'm tired having to read shit like this every year. Leaving the rights of the minority to the majority is just pointless. #gaymarriagemaine
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/06/09
11/06/09
11/04/09
As a liberal Jewish girl, I love it. LOVE. IT. #gaymarriagemaine
11/04/09
I'm a heterosexual woman and I don't see how gay marriage would send the US to hell in a handbasket. I have yet to hear a cogent argument against gay marriage that doesn't basically boil down to "traditional marriage would be destroyed" and/or "the bible says so!" #gaymarriagemaine
11/04/09