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What Is "Women's Art"?
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info*ninja
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
This is just about the masculine as norm-the masculine is considered universal (see: rights, work, art, literature, film, etc)and the female is considered the other.

The question is based on the predication that "art" is men's art.

Also we, each of us, are a whole bunch of things jumbled together so gender is always present and important but does not function in a vacuum and intersects with a variety of identities such as ethnicity, class, etc.

In short, "women's art" is a reductionist product of the patriarchy that privileges men and collapses half the world's population into one experience.
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kelsium
03/09/09

@info*ninja: Yes. I said something similar, but not quite as well-put on the page before. The thing that bothers me the most about it is the implication that men are auteurs who control their product, and women's art will always be a byproduct of their femininity--they cannot control that about it.
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info*ninja
03/09/09

@kelsium: Exactly. I think that this assumption is so true all over the place (in governance or business). It is so weird that a) emotional is such a bad/gendered word and b) what we lable emotional/feminine: I think violence and horrible prisons and extreme competition are all emotional responses and yet not labled as such because they are connected with the masculine.

No one is really an auteur anyway people!
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argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
i make hyper-feminine art; i consider it feminist art, and i consider it women's art.

i think whether or not that distinction is negative (or even necessary) depends on the artist, how they work, and what they're trying to accomplish.
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kelsium
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
Okay, one more comment, and I'm going to have a hard time articulating this I can tell. Anyway:

The thing that bothers me about identifying art as "women's art" is that it seems to imply that art by men is gender neutral, but women just can't help themselves--their femininity is going to shine through in some form. Be it their subject matter, their posing, their execution, or whatever. I hear this same argument now about women directors and such. The whole thing applies that a) the female experience is not worthwhile as being presumed to explore universal themes, and b) women can't control their art.

All of which is ridiculous.
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slowpoke.r
03/09/09

@kelsium: You articulated it beautifully. Excellent point.
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Lisabel (ne: Dagnabbit)
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
Gah, I'll tell you right now, I dread "women's art shows" as much as art grouped by race if the curator limits all the work to the "identity" genre-- where the pieces overtly address womanhood or being asian-american, or encapsulating the latino experience. In the worst case it ends up being a redundant collection of cliches that doesn't advance the discussion or expand the definition of what it means to be a [blank] artist. Just an echo chamber with good lighting.

Don't get it twisted, I understand the need for representation, but who gets represented is sometimes a case of severe politicing-- I've had friends who didn't get into shows because their work wasn't essentially "down" enough according to the curator.

Sorry if this was kinda off topic.
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Cam/ron
03/09/09

@Dagnabbit.: Ditto, the worst effect such exhibits have is that they leave the viewer the impression that every piece of art they show is entirely indicative of the gender or group that the artist supposedly "represents."
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LaComtesse
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
It comes down to the age old question of whether one can separate art from artist, work from writer, etc. I think the art MUST be taken free from gender, but, once it is exmained objectively, understanding the artist can enhance one's understanding of a piece. Example. Artemisia Gentileschi worked in her father's studio and they painted many similar scenes. Comparing two works on the same subject (Lot and his Daughters, for example) is interesting when one considers gender and life experience (Artemisia was raped by one of her father's students.)

Here's an Orazio Gentileschi...
The daughters clearly have the power here, which makes what comes after in the Bible story--them cloying their dad with wine to have sex with them--in their hands.

Here's an Artemisia...

Who's reaching for whom?
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kelsium
03/09/09

@LaComtesse: This is a lovely comment.

I've always found her so interesting, especially the multiple scenes of Judith and her maidservant--expressing frustration with her place in society? Or just exploring variations on an interesting theme? I also love that she was into Caravaggio, and I like to think that she saw some kinship with him being that they were both outsiders to a certain extent.
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kelsium
03/09/09

@LaComtesse: Also, this painting of hers is very interesting because wasn't she raped by her painting tutor? And if I remember correctly she actually pressed charges and took him through the courts, which is sort of nuts considering the time period.
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LaComtesse
03/09/09

@kelsium: She was. She took him to court and won which even today is mega-rare. Her depictions of Judith are stunning.

@vamvaki_poulaki: She's one of my all-time favorites. The Brooklyn Museum is actually really good about including female artists.
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kelsium
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
Here is the other thing: do we identify cave art as gendered? Not really.

We have no idea who made those drawings, and it's entirely possible that early females made them--making women the first artists. But we don't know. Does it really matter? No. Not at all.

It is a visual narrative of human experience, it says what the viewer sees. That's all that matters.
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andheartss haz it
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
I've struggled with this idea for a few years...I sometimes don't want my gender factored into play when someone looks at work that I've produced...but being recognized as a woman in the art world is so important because our voices are usually stifled.

I can't say that my work has ever been feminine, but lately I've been flirting with female ideology in my work.

Anyone want to start a new faction of the Guerilla Girls?
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argle-bargle? or fou-ferraw?
03/09/09

@andheartss haz it: thank you! i deliberately make extremely girly work, and i don't mind being classified as a woman artist, i totally see where you're coming from.

even though i don't think all work is 'gendered' (by that i mean expresses traits that we would identify as masculine or feminine at a glance) i absolutely agree that we ought to recognize women artists because it has been harder for them to gain recognition within the art community. i think you can easily draw a parallel with recognizing women artists and artists of color.

re: guerilla girls, i'm always up for subversive art fun! where do you live, o fellow lady art-maker?
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daisen-in
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
Also: weren't the art couple Ana Mendieta (who created gorgeous art which was often called "feminist") and her husband Carlo Andre treated very differently in the art world? Maybe Jezzies who are better versed in art history can fill in my mental gap here.
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junkyardarts
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
as an art dealer i say loudly from the tree tops : its just ART, people!

many of my artists identify themselve by their brand name so you dont know what gender they are to start with.
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prestocaro fears the culling
03/09/09

@junkyardarts: le sigh.... dream job.

I haz a jealous.
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kelsium
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
I think it's funny to hear that someone thought Georgia O'Keefe "paints like a man", since her art is now considered synonymous with "woman painter" whether she wanted it or not. Suck it, critic.
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daisen-in
03/09/09

@kelsium: I gather painting vaginal landscapes is ironically painting "like a man." Still trying to wrap my head around that one.
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kelsium
03/09/09

@daisen-in: I am such an immature art student. I find it impossible to listen to people talk about her work because I have the irrepressible urge to just be like "GUYS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A VAG! GOT IT?"
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GoodbyeBlueMonday
03/09/09

@kelsium: Considering O'Keefe maintained that her paintings were simply of large flowers, the whole thing is ironic.
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kelsium
03/09/09

@GoodbyeBlueMonday: Lies, all lies. I think Georgia O'Keefe is way sneakier than that.

(Full disclosure: I know that's what she said, but I have my suspicions that she and Alfred Stieglitz were each other's beards and that they are all vaginas.)
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SkipToMyLou
03/09/09

@kelsium: That was my exact first thought too! No way Georgie O'Keefe "paints like a man". Her paintings are bold for sure, but their floral representations of vaginas. That's pretty conventionally womanly.

Sidenote: MS Word or whatever spellchecker I have on my computer does not recognize the word "vaginas". Singular, yes; plural, no. As a group, we are threatening.
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SkipToMyLou
03/09/09

@SkipToMyLou is going to change her name: Oh for flickety fuck's sake. Sorry there GEORGIA for making you a Georgie. And for using the wrong "they're". See why I need a spellcheck?
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info*ninja
03/09/09

@kelsium: It is also interesting because Stieglitz (whom i kinda hate) apparently told her she couldn't paint architectural themes and she should stick to the feminine flowers and landscapes.
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GoodbyeBlueMonday
03/09/09

@info*ninja:

Turns out, he was wrong. Her NYC skyline paintings are my favorite.
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info*ninja
03/09/09

@GoodbyeBlueMonday: Mine too, i read that before i saw some of them in "the flesh" so i didn't understand what a robbery that was. I cried when i realized the beauty that was stolen from the world.

Fuck you stupid restrictions on creation!
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linnyt is a walking cliché
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
When this issue came up with books I considered gender to be a non-issue. I am not a writer. I do art/arty things so I can relate to this better and it changes my answer. The piece of art can only come from a woman's point of view if she's the one creating it. If she wants to create like a man, she's still interpreting how a man works through her own perspective as a woman. She can't ever take the woman out of her art if she's still a part of it. I don't know if that makes sense though.
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angharad
03/09/09

@linnyt is a walking cliché: I agree with that, but it's not just a gender issue. No one experiences the world the same way you do. I hate classifying art by the artist's gender/ethnicity/age/religion/etc. Art is art, and knowing an artist's background should only serve to enhance and add insight to their artwork, not function as yet one more way to separate or wall off a group of people.
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linnyt is a walking cliché
03/09/09

@angharad: even is the audience doesn't know who or what made the art piece, it still carries 'fingerprints' and traces of the artist. how the traces are read or interpreted is up to the audience, if they even pick up on them.
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kelsium
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
As all art, it depends on the intent. Does the art explore gender identity? Then yes. Is the art simply made by a person with lady parts? Then no.
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morninggloria
03/09/09

@kelsium: When I first read this, I though that you said it depends on the "internet." I thought, why is the internet the arbiter of art? Kelsium make-ah-no sense!
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kelsium
03/09/09

@morninggloria: THE INTERNET IS THE ARBITER OF ALL THINGS. Bow to its omniscience!
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prestocaro fears the culling
03/09/09

@kelsium: I saw internet for intent, too. PRAISE BE TO THE WIRELESS ROUTER. There but for the grace of teh interwebs....
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daisen-in
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
I think John Berger describes very thoroughly in "Ways of Seeing" the phenomena of male "artists" versus female "subjects" and how rigidly the categories can be enforced. Anyone else read it?
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GoodbyeBlueMonday
03/09/09

@daisen-in: I wrote my thesis on it and how female artists painted female nudes, as compared to their contemporary male artists. As you might imagine, most of the women's portrayals were at least sympathetic if not empowering while the men painted women who were meant to be sensually enjoyed.
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daisen-in
03/09/09

@GoodbyeBlueMonday: So are male nudes almost totally absent, then? That's really interesting.
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msAnthrope
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
actually i'd be interested to know how many women created art they believed expressed universal themes, and wound up having their work categorized as "women's art."
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formergr
03/09/09

@msAnthrope: This is what I always think when I pass the National Museum of Women In Arts in DC near work. It's a great museum, and women have gotten the shaft in art for so many years in terms of even being exhibited so I'm glad it's there to allow these works to be seen, but at the same time why can't these works be in the "general" art museums with all the menfolk's art? Why must they be segregated away in another building?

I am definitely torn on this one, and not sure yet how I feel about it.
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bluebears
03/09/09

In reply to What Is "Women's Art"?
the term "womens art" makes me wanna....wears that gif of the stick guy banging his head on the computer?
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Samanthrax
03/09/09

@bluebears:
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bluebears
03/09/09

@Samazon: thank you!
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