@gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy: Thank you :)

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But do I hesitate to LABEL myself knowing that many people will assume it means I do hate men and want to sit around with my wymyn friends staring at my vagina with a mirror? Yes, I do. And yes, for some women it DOES mean that. I know some of them. Which is why it's a hard image to shake.

And if that makes me worthy of condescending ridicule, well.

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Any group that you will ever join is going to have a radical section that will do things that you find distasteful (though learning about your own genitals is a pretty weak thing for you to be repulsed by). Frankly, I don't really care whether or not you call yourself a feminist. That's up to you. But the words "This is why I hesistate to identify as a feminist" in this context sounded less like a discomfort with a radical section of a large and diverse group, and more like a dismissal of the group itself on the basis of immaturity. So that's why I made fun of you.

And if some asshole thinks that because you call yourself a feminist, you hate men and stare at your vagina's reflection with all your wymyn friends (and that was a cute condescending use of that spelling, by the way), then you could--I don't know, call me crazy--fucking educate them so that stereotype fucking goes away.

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That was so depressing to type.

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But it's important to remember that these women were operating in a different climate in different times, and things that seem quaint or odd to us now might have been really shocking and revolutionary at the time. When people get divisive and claim that their "wave" is somehow better/more aware/more effective than some other "wave", older or younger, I haz a sad.

We're all after the same thing, after all.

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Seriously, how could there have been your beloved 'Third Wave' if they hadn't facilitated the second? Logic, people.

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Our daughters' daughters will adore us - as they sing in grateful chorus - well done, sister suffragettes!!!

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Instead, I'm going to watch Mary Poppins because of you.

*shakes fist*

DARN YOU.

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I went to a MP singalong party a few weeks ago. I can't even begin to describe how many shades of awesome it was.

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That's not to excuse Debra Dickerson, &c. from destructive divisiveness. But I really want to give credit where credit is due.

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If that is what the "old skool" feminists think of young women now....How sad that she thinks so little of other women.

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It certainly isn't the be-all, end-all goal of feminism, though, and it's not something that everyone is 100% comfortable with. I mean, blogging about sex doesn't automatically make one a feminist. But, I'd rather see open dialogue than see someone act broadly dismissive to a whole range of ideas, and I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way about Ms. Dickerson yesterday.

And I think you hit on something else here: disagreeing with someone, or a group of people, doesn't have to be the same as slamming their ENTIRE body of opinions/accomplishments. Dickerson seemed broadly dismissive of a lot of the actions of the younger set, so a lot of commenters got broadly dismissive of her. I think we ALL have good points to bring to the table, even if we don't agree on everything.

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You rock. I've been pondering this, quite frankly, all night. I have a fever and am fighting some nasty thing, so therefore, couldn't formulate a coherent thought.

THIS is what I think about the older vs. younger, us vs. them mentality.

The minute a person (male or female) sees themselves as better than someone else, said person has lost all perspective.

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I think today feminists need to show that women don't need to stop being feminine in order to get the same opportunities as men.

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But it's not the feminist themselves I have a problem with. It's when their outdated ideas are still regarded as the best/most relevant. For example, many feminists still live by Steinman's theories about sex, pornography, etc. Even though their so outdated that they've become nonproductive.

I think the problem is that when some people reject older theories they are understood as hating on older feminist. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can dismiss someone's theories while still admiring their work.

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I guess my point is that isn't productive to rely on many Steinmen's arguments. But nobody needs to be calling her a dinosaur either. heh.

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Where is it that feminist thought is regarded as relevant? I want to go to there.

Us Gender Studies folk spend all there days in a magical place where all chairs are formed into circles and people care about feminist thought.

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And I'm guessing I would fall into your class of de-moded feminists, but you are perpetrating the same old "let me refuse to take other people seriously on the grounds they see the world differently than I myself do" shit you complain that they are.

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I find this particular facets of her arguments to be of which I find really exclusive/dismissive to difference. Each argument assumes how women are feeling without listening to what women are saying. Besides, to drive everything underground or perpetuate shame only makes life worse transsexual persons and sex workers.

That being said, I think it is possible to disagree with her, even on very fundamental things, without trashing her as a feminist.

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Sometimes, no matter how awesome the feminist, their ideas about the way things should be aren't really the best ideas. And unless we're willing roll with that, discuss these ideas, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.

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In other words, it's fine to want to have a conversation about these theorists and your disagreements therwith. However, you can either have a surfacey disagreement, which gets no one anywhere, or you can sit down and think hard. Calling someone else's ideas "outmoded" and suggesting they are shaming queer people doesn't, in general, suggest careful thought. It's reactionary.

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This is a perfect example of what happens when someone disagrees with an older/famous feminist. I've disagreed with some of Gloria Steinem work and in return you've decided to say nasty things out me (such as that I'm lying or need "better teachers"). And, so, the conversation is no longer productive. It's just personal. And you're just being mean and I have no interest discussing anything with someone who is going to be needlessly disrespectful.

And as for the construction of my sentences or spelling mistakes: we are commenting on a blog, lighten up.

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Skirts, makeup, etc. are social trappings. We wear them to make ourselves (and others) comfortable. And while I think that some of these social trappings are kinda sexist - I mean, who HASN'T suffered a bunch of tight, ill-fitting cocktail dresses and impossible heels for a glitzy occasion, and you wished you could just wear a suit and tie and sensible shoes? But you weren't comfortable doing it, so you went with the dress and heels? (Note: this has happened to me, and I do think that clothing is a socially-charged issue.)

I think, though, social change is something that happens gradually - if we all ran out and burned all our skirts and bras in the street, THIS MINUTE, it would look kind of odd and reactionary, y'know? I don't think all the passersby would really "get" what we were trying to do. Yes, those who hate skirts and bras would be given a great opportunity to express their true feelings, but I'm not sure what else it would accomplish.

So I'd say: forget what you're wearing, forget what you do with your pits, forget what you put on your eyelashes.

For those who don't know whether they should be called a feminist, please read this excellent essay by Sarah Bunting at Tomato Nation. You probably are.

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And just to protect my hide, I'll admit that I've only taken a few genders studies courses in my day, so perhaps this issue has been addressed ad nauseum and I simply haven't seen it.

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What you seem to be missing too, is that while I admire Steinem, I don't actually agree with many of her ideas either, personally. (Note I started out saying most criticism is "well-placed.") But when I get into it with feminists and people in gender studies programs, their critiques sound nothing like yours. Because, again, they are taking the issue seriously. As it should be.

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You don't have to act any one particular way to be a "good" feminist. There is no entrance exam, no "you must be at least this butch to count as feminist" sign.

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@tscheese: Wow thanks for all the valuable info tscheese, I'd save that essay for later reading.

But what IF I still enjoy getting the door opened, or the chair pulled, or getting helped with my luggage, etc? I mean, I understand that with that they're not implying I don't know how to open doors, but just trying to be nice. Is this blasphemy? Do I ask too much?

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If you believe that men and women deserve the same rights and respect, then you are a feminist. It doesn't matter how much makeup you put on, whether or not you wear bras, whether or not you get botox, how high your heels are, or how many sexual partners you have. You get to call yourself a feminist. We can argue the merits of your positions all day long and we probably have before. But disagreement does not indicate we're kicking you out of any sooper sekret clubhouse only open to the "good" feminists.

Feel better. :)

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@SarahMC: Mmm, I don't know. Probably my upbringing and environment. I was always encouraged to aim high and be great in the world (regardless of sex). But men still did these sorts of things for women.

I find it sexist when a man earns more than a women (while doing the same job). Or when a man says a woman's place is the kitchen. Etc. But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why.

But everyone's is different. And I enjoy reading this thread with an open-mind. As MissSkittles said, there's not unified theory. I guess that as long as we fight for women's rights, we're all pretty much in the same boat.

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i'm what you might describe as hyper-feminine (society's label, not mine; i'm using it here to facilitate discussion only), and i don't appreciate the suggestion that there is something wrong with being that way. that's who i am.

have i misunderstood? do you think we (as in humanity, male and female) should all force ourselves to embody society's notion of masculinity and eschew the traits that have been traditionally considered feminine altogether? or do you mean that we need to move past rigid notions of which traits each gender may or may not possess?

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I don't think there IS anything wrong with stereotypical, traditional "femininity." But "femininity" is not a synonym for "female" and "masculinity" is not a synonym for "male." I do not agree with privileging masculinity over femininity AT ALL. What I take issue with is the notion that men and men only MUST perform masculinity (as it's understood) and women and women only MUST perform femininity (as it's understood). I shudder when people say we women can be equal and still be feminine, as though femininity were an inborn, female trait or something - like our DNA makes us like dresses with flowers on them.

Please note that I am not putting DOWN dresses with flowers on them. In fact I quite like them. I am putting down gender essentialism.

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my midwest upbringing is showing, isn't it? hhhhh.

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"But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why."

Because it's good manners. That whole opening doors argument is about as lame as anything I've ever heard, and I especially hate hearing it from misogynist men.

I realize in reading all of this that I am an OLD FEMINIST. I"m one of the old bats that's annoying some of you younger feminists.

I'm 53 years old. I've had a lifetime to think about all this. I remember being told as a teenaged girl that if women wanted rights, they had to earn them, and nodding along, as if that weren't the biggest bucket of bullshit. It took a while for me to realize that a bucket that was. When I did, I became a somewhat militant feminist, a mode I stayed in for quite a long time.

What I know now is this - feminism has to be regarded as constantly evolving. We old bats were right about a lot of stuff. We worried about some stuff that really isn't all that important. (pornography) I worry about the downward slide - I see so many gains we made just slipping away, while younger women choose not to be "feminists" because it's become a dirty word.

The price of women's rights is constant vigilance.

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