Things have progressed so much that it is sometimes easy to forget the changes that have been made..and could be lost! I started working with women, who when they were younger had to leave work in the Government sector if they got married. When I was at school the 11 plus exam into the top flight (academically) state schools were loaded in favour of boys in that there were far more places for males than females. As a single woman I would have found it very difficult to get mortgage when I first started working. I had friends whose parent paid for their brothers to go to private shcool but not for them as it was deemed a waste of money. Time and again I found promotion going to less qualified and experienced male staff. As a result whenever I hear women simper that they would never want to be called a feminist, I feel a sense of anger that the very rights they take for granted, were only achieved because other women had risked so much to win them in the first place, in the face of a relentlessly hostile and jeering opposition.
At almost 47, I have seen so many things happen that I think alot of younger women take for granted. Sure, there have been mistakes along the way, but that's how we learn. There is no "wave" of feminism that is perfect, and one day your daughters will look back and thank you, but also see flaws, as well.
When I was growing up, abortion was illegal, and I remember my aunt having to sneak up to D.C. to have one performed. Then came 1973, before alot of you were even born - and in 1980, when I was in need of abortion services, voila! I had a nice, clean, professional Planned Parenthood to go to for mine.
We have come a long way, baby! And we still have a long way to go.
Hallelujah and amen -- this 38B loves it when there is some commraderie about not wearing bras!
Now, my refusal to wear bras probably stems more from comfort and the irrational fear that set in when my mother told me wearing bras to bed would stunt boob growth, rather than "stickin it to the man," but hell I've just added to my reasons to go commando!
@MerryLilly: Does anyone wear bras at night? I don't think I ever have but then I average wearing a bra only 3 or 4 days a week and only for a couple hours a day when I'm out in public.
My bra sucks today, some sort of bottom of the drawer thing I bought with the purpose of it being seen, not worn under a t-shirt to be constantly adjusted and full of croissant crumbs.
To be on topic, I'm sick of people having such a negative view of feminists. So, I'm pro-woman because I think we as human beings should have rights, so (hypothetical) you should be condescending towards me because I'm not afraid to share my beliefs? Suck it.
@SarahMC: In this neck of the woods, parties where women would get together for some consciousness-raising education on their reproductive systems & cervical self-examination using mirrors & speculums.
@SarahMC: All I can think of is the scene in Fried Green Tomatoes when Kathy Bates' character runs out of a party involving vadge gazing because she has a problem with her girdle.
@cactuswren: Please hand in your card at 3 p.m. Your password has already been placed on watch, so I would advise you not to use it lest the secret feminist police crash into your workplace and haul you off for a 24-hour marathon performance of the Vagina Monologues.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: Wait, wait. Maybe we shouldn't be so harsh. After all, cactuswren has a point in that vaginas are really disgusting and we should be ashamed of having them.
@Khrushchev: Look, I'm all for women's rights, but I'm not like, into getting to know my body. 'Cause lady genitals are pretty gross, right!? Plus I like my lipgloss; no feminist will take that away from me!
@SarahMC: Well, my genitals are weird-looking. You know? And I have this pesky period thing sometimes, which must be wrong, because men don't get it. And also, hey, I like men! So I'm not a feminist.
@cactuswren: Just like any movement, feminism has, over time, (for a number of reasons, but partially the aid of some segments of the movement who are quite radical), become a loaded word. Do I believe in the actual equality-for-everybody (true equality, not bullshit lipservice equality)? Of course. It is awesome and amazing what the early feminists achieved in the face of so much in such a short time that we are this much better off today? Abso-fricking-lutely. One of the most incredible stories of the power of the human spirit, I think.
But do I hesitate to LABEL myself knowing that many people will assume it means I do hate men and want to sit around with my wymyn friends staring at my vagina with a mirror? Yes, I do. And yes, for some women it DOES mean that. I know some of them. Which is why it's a hard image to shake.
And if that makes me worthy of condescending ridicule, well.
@cactuswren: Yes, I think that makes you worthy of condescending ridicule. Here's why:
Any group that you will ever join is going to have a radical section that will do things that you find distasteful (though learning about your own genitals is a pretty weak thing for you to be repulsed by). Frankly, I don't really care whether or not you call yourself a feminist. That's up to you. But the words "This is why I hesistate to identify as a feminist" in this context sounded less like a discomfort with a radical section of a large and diverse group, and more like a dismissal of the group itself on the basis of immaturity. So that's why I made fun of you.
And if some asshole thinks that because you call yourself a feminist, you hate men and stare at your vagina's reflection with all your wymyn friends (and that was a cute condescending use of that spelling, by the way), then you could--I don't know, call me crazy--fucking educate them so that stereotype fucking goes away.
@Khrushchev: Even liberal Christians call themselves Christians despite the fact that the most vocal Christians these days are right-wingers. Seems the argument only applies to feminism, y'know?
My grandmother is an old school feminist and I totally love her for it. She used to scare me a bit with how militant she could be, but as I got older I realized how much a reflection of her and her beliefs I really was. Although I'll never be able to call God a woman.
@J.D.Regent: Technically I don't believe in God. But when I did, I had a hard time comprehending God having any gender or race. It just seemed unreasonable that as diverse as the human race is, we were all created by one generic looking dude.
I was at a program last night wherein women of three different faiths discussed religion and feminism. The women were of two generations--the oldest 71, the youngest probably in her 30s. To see the youngest woman speak so graciously, gratefully, and so full of sisterly respect was truly inspiring and it gives me hope that this (largely imagined) animosity between the old guard and the whippersnappers is peanuts compared to what happens when we look to each other for new ideas and support.
Actually, speculum parties still happen. The women's resource center I volunteer at hosted a plastic speculum decorating party during the week leading up my campus' production of the Vagina Monologues. I really wanted to go but I was stuck in my 3-hour gender studies class. Go figure.
So just to the left of this mention of speculum parties, I see the Consumer Reports' key to their rating system. All the little circles suddenly look like cervixes! Or cervices!
Now, I DO appreciate that I am not forced to wear pointy pillows made of space-aged polymers like my grandmother and great-grandmother were. Thanks, Feminists!
Comfy bras FTW!
(Okay, I'm not entirely sure if that's what Ann Leslie is getting at when she talks about strapping herself into Playtex, but there really HAS been a massive change in the design of bras between the 60's and today. I am extremely thankful to the ladies who forced something better to come around, for that reason and for the myriad others. I wouldn't wear them if I didn't have to.)
@MissSkittles is not your kind of lady: As someone who doesn't need to wear a bra... I still wear one. Unfortunately, the natural appearance of the breasts of a young woman is too much to handle for much of society. Thus, I'd rather put my nipples away than appear, to many, like I'm "asking to be looked at".
I'll go out on a limb here and say it: I love old feminists. I do. I am so tired of listening to criticism of them, most of which is entirely well-placed, of course, but very little of which seems more than cathartic bitching as opposed to building a new feminist movement among young women.
In short, I long for new and exciting ways to build sisterhood. What I usually get is explanations of how the old ways were "wrong." Le sigh.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: me too actually. I really like Susan Brownmiller and people shit all over her because she's part of that anti pornography group.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: It also works the other way, though, as we saw with Ms. Dickerson yesterday. There are judgments and sweeping generalizations being made on both sides, sadly.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: I'm with you on this: if they hadn't fought, when they did, where they did, we'd have to make all that effort all over again in this generation. Or, worse, we might not even know we HAD those options. It's not like feminism is now totally victorious and everything is awesome in 2009. I mean, society still needs to change a lot w/r/t its attitudes about women and equality.
But it's important to remember that these women were operating in a different climate in different times, and things that seem quaint or odd to us now might have been really shocking and revolutionary at the time. When people get divisive and claim that their "wave" is somehow better/more aware/more effective than some other "wave", older or younger, I haz a sad.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: I do find it strangely offensive when a young woman is anything but grateful for the old feminists and their efforts. They were by no means perfect, but who the hell is?
Seriously, how could there have been your beloved 'Third Wave' if they hadn't facilitated the second? Logic, people.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: Oh I'm right there with you, PilgrimSoul. When I was in college, I got to spend a lot of time interviewing an "older feminist" - one who had started the women's center on campus thirty or so years earlier. She had gone on to lots of other amazing things, and I'll always remember this sense of honor in talking with her - awe and gratitude and humility. I am so grateful for the work that other women, and feminist men, have done for us in the past, and I feel like it's our turn to make sure that we keep progress happening. Their work was imperfect, sure, as ours will be, but the best kinds of progress bring more wisdom, right?
Our daughters' daughters will adore us - as they sing in grateful chorus - well done, sister suffragettes!!!
@hortense: Well, I think everybody could get a little less defensive. Ms. Dickerson may have been largely wrong, but I do think there's some merit to saying that blogging about one's sex life is a largely inadequate form of feminism.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: Yes, I'm right behind you. It's never going to be one, perfect, unified feminism. We're never going to satisfy everybody; we're always going to make mistakes, and our predecessors did the same. But wow, they revolutionized the template! It's all too easy for us to focus on whatever details they may not have caught, but we have the benefit of their far-reaching vision.
That's not to excuse Debra Dickerson, &c. from destructive divisiveness. But I really want to give credit where credit is due.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: Well, it's fine to have a dialogue about sexual matters. It's a subject that has been considered dirty and scandalous for many, many centuries, and if women are learning from each other, feeling comfortable in their own bodies, and having better sex because of it, I can hardly complain.
It certainly isn't the be-all, end-all goal of feminism, though, and it's not something that everyone is 100% comfortable with. I mean, blogging about sex doesn't automatically make one a feminist. But, I'd rather see open dialogue than see someone act broadly dismissive to a whole range of ideas, and I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way about Ms. Dickerson yesterday.
And I think you hit on something else here: disagreeing with someone, or a group of people, doesn't have to be the same as slamming their ENTIRE body of opinions/accomplishments. Dickerson seemed broadly dismissive of a lot of the actions of the younger set, so a lot of commenters got broadly dismissive of her. I think we ALL have good points to bring to the table, even if we don't agree on everything.
You rock. I've been pondering this, quite frankly, all night. I have a fever and am fighting some nasty thing, so therefore, couldn't formulate a coherent thought.
THIS is what I think about the older vs. younger, us vs. them mentality.
The minute a person (male or female) sees themselves as better than someone else, said person has lost all perspective.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: Yeah. I think the old ways may be wrong IF implemented today. But back then, they sure accomplished what they wanted.
I think today feminists need to show that women don't need to stop being feminine in order to get the same opportunities as men.
But it's not the feminist themselves I have a problem with. It's when their outdated ideas are still regarded as the best/most relevant. For example, many feminists still live by Steinman's theories about sex, pornography, etc. Even though their so outdated that they've become nonproductive.
I think the problem is that when some people reject older theories they are understood as hating on older feminist. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can dismiss someone's theories while still admiring their work.
@mervbaby: sometimes I wonder if we should sort of compare ourselves to anthropologists. They are still reading and relying on and being formed by say Margaret Mead, even though thinking on those issues has changed a lot since then, the colonial overtones critiqued, etc. But it's not about "hating on" or rejecting the elders, just building from the foundation they've laid.
@MerryLilly: I'm a little confused by your second statement. The whole idea that feminists aren't feminine is really one perpetuated by people who don't like feminists, isn't it? So why should feminists have to shoulder the responsibility of disproving the stereotype in order to recruit?
@J.D.Regent: Exactly. But I think how that sort of conversation somehow turns into "us and them". And, because it is such a personal practice, I understand how the process rejecting someone's argument can get nasty.
I guess my point is that isn't productive to rely on many Steinmen's arguments. But nobody needs to be calling her a dinosaur either. heh.
@SarahMC: I mean, I get that some women consider themselves not feminist because they like make-up and heels, but those are just women who haven't taken the time to understand what feminism is, aren't they?
@mervbaby: You typoed it two different ways, so you'll forgive me, I think, if I suspected you were less than serious about grappling with feminist work on sex and pornography, particularly if your go-to "outdated feminist" is Steinem.
And I'm guessing I would fall into your class of de-moded feminists, but you are perpetrating the same old "let me refuse to take other people seriously on the grounds they see the world differently than I myself do" shit you complain that they are.
@SarahMC: She's really rejected many notions of queer, including transsexualism. On pornography she has recommended government bans. Or at least, that's my understanding of some things she's written.
I find this particular facets of her arguments to be of which I find really exclusive/dismissive to difference. Each argument assumes how women are feeling without listening to what women are saying. Besides, to drive everything underground or perpetuate shame only makes life worse transsexual persons and sex workers.
That being said, I think it is possible to disagree with her, even on very fundamental things, without trashing her as a feminist.
@PilgrimSoul Gives Up On the Universe: The opposite, actually. I'm saying that disagreement should be welcome in feminist practice. Dissent is necessary in order to keep feminism productive, relevant. Thus, I think it should be fine when someone wants to disagree with a another feminist's ideas, old or new. The trouble is that some people understand the critique of an older feminist to be blasphemy.
Sometimes, no matter how awesome the feminist, their ideas about the way things should be aren't really the best ideas. And unless we're willing roll with that, discuss these ideas, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.
@mervbaby: You are very confused. You cannot spell Steinem's name correctly, but claim such intimate familiarity with her views that you reject them. You identify her as apparently the only second-waver with which anyone is familiar, which strikes me as particularly odd coming from someone who claims to be in a Gender Studies program. If indeed this is not a lie, I would say you should probably seek out some better teachers, because they are misleading you. And you appear to be having great difficulty articulating your "critique." I can't make any sense of some of your sentences.
In other words, it's fine to want to have a conversation about these theorists and your disagreements therwith. However, you can either have a surfacey disagreement, which gets no one anywhere, or you can sit down and think hard. Calling someone else's ideas "outmoded" and suggesting they are shaming queer people doesn't, in general, suggest careful thought. It's reactionary.
@Khrushchev: @SarahMC: Mmm you both make valid points. In all honesty, I don't know what I really am. I am of the belief that women should get the same opportunities as men (in work, family, etc). But, I enjoy wearing skirts, shaving, make-up, etc. So probably I shouldn't be calling myself a feminist, but I'm still very pro-women, so I don't know :-(
Again, I never said she was outdated. But that some of her arguments are. Clearly, you've decided to ignore that. Whatevs. But back to my original point.
This is a perfect example of what happens when someone disagrees with an older/famous feminist. I've disagreed with some of Gloria Steinem work and in return you've decided to say nasty things out me (such as that I'm lying or need "better teachers"). And, so, the conversation is no longer productive. It's just personal. And you're just being mean and I have no interest discussing anything with someone who is going to be needlessly disrespectful.
And as for the construction of my sentences or spelling mistakes: we are commenting on a blog, lighten up.
@MerryLilly: You get to call yourself a feminist if you believe that women should have equal opportunities, equal pay, and equal respect. That's it. That's all. If you think that women should have the same opportunities both in and out of the home as men, if you think that women should be paid the same as men doing the same work, then you're a feminist.
Skirts, makeup, etc. are social trappings. We wear them to make ourselves (and others) comfortable. And while I think that some of these social trappings are kinda sexist - I mean, who HASN'T suffered a bunch of tight, ill-fitting cocktail dresses and impossible heels for a glitzy occasion, and you wished you could just wear a suit and tie and sensible shoes? But you weren't comfortable doing it, so you went with the dress and heels? (Note: this has happened to me, and I do think that clothing is a socially-charged issue.)
I think, though, social change is something that happens gradually - if we all ran out and burned all our skirts and bras in the street, THIS MINUTE, it would look kind of odd and reactionary, y'know? I don't think all the passersby would really "get" what we were trying to do. Yes, those who hate skirts and bras would be given a great opportunity to express their true feelings, but I'm not sure what else it would accomplish.
So I'd say: forget what you're wearing, forget what you do with your pits, forget what you put on your eyelashes.
@Khrushchev: Why does feminine always connote pink and dainty and soft and small? I am a female, therefore my actions, expressions and behaviors are feminine. Instead of discussing whether or not feminists can be feminine, I'd rather take a hard look at the tenets of femininity themselves. Heavens, "femininity" is hard to type.
And just to protect my hide, I'll admit that I've only taken a few genders studies courses in my day, so perhaps this issue has been addressed ad nauseum and I simply haven't seen it.
@mervbaby: We are commenting on a blog, sure, but this is my point. If you have something you want to articulate, you are welcome to do so, but you have an obligation to articulate it in a way that ensures you will be taken seriously, or else, people are not going to take you seriously. It is this latter obligation that you seem to eschew while imposing it on other people. If you want to have a serious conversation about Steinem, fine. But, then, spell her name right and write in coherent sentences. These are not huge burdens.
What you seem to be missing too, is that while I admire Steinem, I don't actually agree with many of her ideas either, personally. (Note I started out saying most criticism is "well-placed.") But when I get into it with feminists and people in gender studies programs, their critiques sound nothing like yours. Because, again, they are taking the issue seriously. As it should be.
@MerryLilly: Look, it's not like there's a unified theory of Feminism that everyone adheres to (this thread should make that pretty clear). I mean, to me, I think women and men should be free to act as masculine or as feminine as they want. If a woman wants to be a girly girl I don't think that should preclude her from also being a kick-ass CEO anymore than I think being a sports obsessed macho lady means that a woman couldn't be a stay-at-home mother if that's what she wants. Personally, I knit and sew and plan on becoming a Geologist and I can change my own oil and fix the toilet. The masculine and the feminine are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
You don't have to act any one particular way to be a "good" feminist. There is no entrance exam, no "you must be at least this butch to count as feminist" sign.
@Khrushchev: Oh gotcha! Seems I'm on slow-mode today :)
@tscheese: Wow thanks for all the valuable info tscheese, I'd save that essay for later reading.
But what IF I still enjoy getting the door opened, or the chair pulled, or getting helped with my luggage, etc? I mean, I understand that with that they're not implying I don't know how to open doors, but just trying to be nice. Is this blasphemy? Do I ask too much?
@MerryLilly: Well, I would ask why you want men to do those things for you on the basis of your sex? Personally I think if only men are doing those things only for women, it's sexist.
@jigglyball: I think the person I was responding to was using "feminine" as a euphemism for pink and dainty and soft and small, which is why I continued using it. I agree with you entirely.
@MerryLilly: Again, there is no "right" way to be a feminist. Honestly, I think it's just polite to open doors for people regardless of gender or help anyone you think is having a hard time with their luggage.
If you believe that men and women deserve the same rights and respect, then you are a feminist. It doesn't matter how much makeup you put on, whether or not you wear bras, whether or not you get botox, how high your heels are, or how many sexual partners you have. You get to call yourself a feminist. We can argue the merits of your positions all day long and we probably have before. But disagreement does not indicate we're kicking you out of any sooper sekret clubhouse only open to the "good" feminists.
@MissSkittles is not your kind of lady: I do think, however, that it is necessary for anyone who calls themselves a feminist to question gender roles and examine our lives from a feminist persective - including but not limited to makeup, plastic surgery, fashion and sex. Note that I am not saying it's necessary to act one way or the other or to shun certain practices alltogether.
@SarahMC: Mmm, I don't know. Probably my upbringing and environment. I was always encouraged to aim high and be great in the world (regardless of sex). But men still did these sorts of things for women.
I find it sexist when a man earns more than a women (while doing the same job). Or when a man says a woman's place is the kitchen. Etc. But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why.
But everyone's is different. And I enjoy reading this thread with an open-mind. As MissSkittles said, there's not unified theory. I guess that as long as we fight for women's rights, we're all pretty much in the same boat.
@SarahMC: i think a more valid question would be, 'what's valuable about assigning traits to an entire gender as though everyone is the same?'
i'm what you might describe as hyper-feminine (society's label, not mine; i'm using it here to facilitate discussion only), and i don't appreciate the suggestion that there is something wrong with being that way. that's who i am.
have i misunderstood? do you think we (as in humanity, male and female) should all force ourselves to embody society's notion of masculinity and eschew the traits that have been traditionally considered feminine altogether? or do you mean that we need to move past rigid notions of which traits each gender may or may not possess?
I don't think there IS anything wrong with stereotypical, traditional "femininity." But "femininity" is not a synonym for "female" and "masculinity" is not a synonym for "male." I do not agree with privileging masculinity over femininity AT ALL. What I take issue with is the notion that men and men only MUST perform masculinity (as it's understood) and women and women only MUST perform femininity (as it's understood). I shudder when people say we women can be equal and still be feminine, as though femininity were an inborn, female trait or something - like our DNA makes us like dresses with flowers on them.
Please note that I am not putting DOWN dresses with flowers on them. In fact I quite like them. I am putting down gender essentialism.
@SarahMC: true, true! personally, i think everyone should do these things for everyone. because we should care about one another and want to help in small ways whenever possible.
my midwest upbringing is showing, isn't it? hhhhh.
@SarahMC: THIS, OMG. I keep telling people that you cannot, cannot be a feminist and put down femininity, women who are feminine, or men who are feminine. To do so is to continue to say "these things that are traditionally male are better than these other things that are traditionally female," which does not advance anyone's arguments. You can be a feminist and bake. I am.
"But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why."
Because it's good manners. That whole opening doors argument is about as lame as anything I've ever heard, and I especially hate hearing it from misogynist men.
I realize in reading all of this that I am an OLD FEMINIST. I"m one of the old bats that's annoying some of you younger feminists.
I'm 53 years old. I've had a lifetime to think about all this. I remember being told as a teenaged girl that if women wanted rights, they had to earn them, and nodding along, as if that weren't the biggest bucket of bullshit. It took a while for me to realize that a bucket that was. When I did, I became a somewhat militant feminist, a mode I stayed in for quite a long time.
What I know now is this - feminism has to be regarded as constantly evolving. We old bats were right about a lot of stuff. We worried about some stuff that really isn't all that important. (pornography) I worry about the downward slide - I see so many gains we made just slipping away, while younger women choose not to be "feminists" because it's become a dirty word.
The price of women's rights is constant vigilance.
@PaintedTrollop: Thank you. This discussion was already very enlightening, but you've added a lot of insight. Ah, so much to ponder, but darn work doesn't allow me to!
I get the bra burning thing and the corralling of women's bodies for men's pleasure. This vixen is the owner of some barely B's...and sometimes a girl needs a little support!
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When I was growing up, abortion was illegal, and I remember my aunt having to sneak up to D.C. to have one performed. Then came 1973, before alot of you were even born - and in 1980, when I was in need of abortion services, voila! I had a nice, clean, professional Planned Parenthood to go to for mine.
We have come a long way, baby! And we still have a long way to go.
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Now, my refusal to wear bras probably stems more from comfort and the irrational fear that set in when my mother told me wearing bras to bed would stunt boob growth, rather than "stickin it to the man," but hell I've just added to my reasons to go commando!
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@gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy: Thank you :)
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To be on topic, I'm sick of people having such a negative view of feminists. So, I'm pro-woman because I think we as human beings should have rights, so (hypothetical) you should be condescending towards me because I'm not afraid to share my beliefs? Suck it.
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Gimme a break.
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But do I hesitate to LABEL myself knowing that many people will assume it means I do hate men and want to sit around with my wymyn friends staring at my vagina with a mirror? Yes, I do. And yes, for some women it DOES mean that. I know some of them. Which is why it's a hard image to shake.
And if that makes me worthy of condescending ridicule, well.
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Any group that you will ever join is going to have a radical section that will do things that you find distasteful (though learning about your own genitals is a pretty weak thing for you to be repulsed by). Frankly, I don't really care whether or not you call yourself a feminist. That's up to you. But the words "This is why I hesistate to identify as a feminist" in this context sounded less like a discomfort with a radical section of a large and diverse group, and more like a dismissal of the group itself on the basis of immaturity. So that's why I made fun of you.
And if some asshole thinks that because you call yourself a feminist, you hate men and stare at your vagina's reflection with all your wymyn friends (and that was a cute condescending use of that spelling, by the way), then you could--I don't know, call me crazy--fucking educate them so that stereotype fucking goes away.
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Seems the argument only applies to feminism, y'know?
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Comfy bras FTW!
(Okay, I'm not entirely sure if that's what Ann Leslie is getting at when she talks about strapping herself into Playtex, but there really HAS been a massive change in the design of bras between the 60's and today. I am extremely thankful to the ladies who forced something better to come around, for that reason and for the myriad others. I wouldn't wear them if I didn't have to.)
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That was so depressing to type.
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In short, I long for new and exciting ways to build sisterhood. What I usually get is explanations of how the old ways were "wrong." Le sigh.
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But it's important to remember that these women were operating in a different climate in different times, and things that seem quaint or odd to us now might have been really shocking and revolutionary at the time. When people get divisive and claim that their "wave" is somehow better/more aware/more effective than some other "wave", older or younger, I haz a sad.
We're all after the same thing, after all.
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Seriously, how could there have been your beloved 'Third Wave' if they hadn't facilitated the second? Logic, people.
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Our daughters' daughters will adore us - as they sing in grateful chorus - well done, sister suffragettes!!!
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Instead, I'm going to watch Mary Poppins because of you.
*shakes fist*
DARN YOU.
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I went to a MP singalong party a few weeks ago. I can't even begin to describe how many shades of awesome it was.
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That's not to excuse Debra Dickerson, &c. from destructive divisiveness. But I really want to give credit where credit is due.
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If that is what the "old skool" feminists think of young women now....How sad that she thinks so little of other women.
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It certainly isn't the be-all, end-all goal of feminism, though, and it's not something that everyone is 100% comfortable with. I mean, blogging about sex doesn't automatically make one a feminist. But, I'd rather see open dialogue than see someone act broadly dismissive to a whole range of ideas, and I think that's what rubbed me the wrong way about Ms. Dickerson yesterday.
And I think you hit on something else here: disagreeing with someone, or a group of people, doesn't have to be the same as slamming their ENTIRE body of opinions/accomplishments. Dickerson seemed broadly dismissive of a lot of the actions of the younger set, so a lot of commenters got broadly dismissive of her. I think we ALL have good points to bring to the table, even if we don't agree on everything.
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You rock. I've been pondering this, quite frankly, all night. I have a fever and am fighting some nasty thing, so therefore, couldn't formulate a coherent thought.
THIS is what I think about the older vs. younger, us vs. them mentality.
The minute a person (male or female) sees themselves as better than someone else, said person has lost all perspective.
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I think today feminists need to show that women don't need to stop being feminine in order to get the same opportunities as men.
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But it's not the feminist themselves I have a problem with. It's when their outdated ideas are still regarded as the best/most relevant. For example, many feminists still live by Steinman's theories about sex, pornography, etc. Even though their so outdated that they've become nonproductive.
I think the problem is that when some people reject older theories they are understood as hating on older feminist. But it doesn't have to be that way. You can dismiss someone's theories while still admiring their work.
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I guess my point is that isn't productive to rely on many Steinmen's arguments. But nobody needs to be calling her a dinosaur either. heh.
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Where is it that feminist thought is regarded as relevant? I want to go to there.
Us Gender Studies folk spend all there days in a magical place where all chairs are formed into circles and people care about feminist thought.
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And I'm guessing I would fall into your class of de-moded feminists, but you are perpetrating the same old "let me refuse to take other people seriously on the grounds they see the world differently than I myself do" shit you complain that they are.
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I find this particular facets of her arguments to be of which I find really exclusive/dismissive to difference. Each argument assumes how women are feeling without listening to what women are saying. Besides, to drive everything underground or perpetuate shame only makes life worse transsexual persons and sex workers.
That being said, I think it is possible to disagree with her, even on very fundamental things, without trashing her as a feminist.
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Sometimes, no matter how awesome the feminist, their ideas about the way things should be aren't really the best ideas. And unless we're willing roll with that, discuss these ideas, we aren't going to be getting anywhere.
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In other words, it's fine to want to have a conversation about these theorists and your disagreements therwith. However, you can either have a surfacey disagreement, which gets no one anywhere, or you can sit down and think hard. Calling someone else's ideas "outmoded" and suggesting they are shaming queer people doesn't, in general, suggest careful thought. It's reactionary.
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Again, I never said she was outdated. But that some of her arguments are. Clearly, you've decided to ignore that. Whatevs. But back to my original point.
This is a perfect example of what happens when someone disagrees with an older/famous feminist. I've disagreed with some of Gloria Steinem work and in return you've decided to say nasty things out me (such as that I'm lying or need "better teachers"). And, so, the conversation is no longer productive. It's just personal. And you're just being mean and I have no interest discussing anything with someone who is going to be needlessly disrespectful.
And as for the construction of my sentences or spelling mistakes: we are commenting on a blog, lighten up.
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Skirts, makeup, etc. are social trappings. We wear them to make ourselves (and others) comfortable. And while I think that some of these social trappings are kinda sexist - I mean, who HASN'T suffered a bunch of tight, ill-fitting cocktail dresses and impossible heels for a glitzy occasion, and you wished you could just wear a suit and tie and sensible shoes? But you weren't comfortable doing it, so you went with the dress and heels? (Note: this has happened to me, and I do think that clothing is a socially-charged issue.)
I think, though, social change is something that happens gradually - if we all ran out and burned all our skirts and bras in the street, THIS MINUTE, it would look kind of odd and reactionary, y'know? I don't think all the passersby would really "get" what we were trying to do. Yes, those who hate skirts and bras would be given a great opportunity to express their true feelings, but I'm not sure what else it would accomplish.
So I'd say: forget what you're wearing, forget what you do with your pits, forget what you put on your eyelashes.
For those who don't know whether they should be called a feminist, please read this excellent essay by Sarah Bunting at Tomato Nation. You probably are.
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And just to protect my hide, I'll admit that I've only taken a few genders studies courses in my day, so perhaps this issue has been addressed ad nauseum and I simply haven't seen it.
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What you seem to be missing too, is that while I admire Steinem, I don't actually agree with many of her ideas either, personally. (Note I started out saying most criticism is "well-placed.") But when I get into it with feminists and people in gender studies programs, their critiques sound nothing like yours. Because, again, they are taking the issue seriously. As it should be.
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You don't have to act any one particular way to be a "good" feminist. There is no entrance exam, no "you must be at least this butch to count as feminist" sign.
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@tscheese: Wow thanks for all the valuable info tscheese, I'd save that essay for later reading.
But what IF I still enjoy getting the door opened, or the chair pulled, or getting helped with my luggage, etc? I mean, I understand that with that they're not implying I don't know how to open doors, but just trying to be nice. Is this blasphemy? Do I ask too much?
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If you believe that men and women deserve the same rights and respect, then you are a feminist. It doesn't matter how much makeup you put on, whether or not you wear bras, whether or not you get botox, how high your heels are, or how many sexual partners you have. You get to call yourself a feminist. We can argue the merits of your positions all day long and we probably have before. But disagreement does not indicate we're kicking you out of any sooper sekret clubhouse only open to the "good" feminists.
Feel better. :)
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@SarahMC: Mmm, I don't know. Probably my upbringing and environment. I was always encouraged to aim high and be great in the world (regardless of sex). But men still did these sorts of things for women.
I find it sexist when a man earns more than a women (while doing the same job). Or when a man says a woman's place is the kitchen. Etc. But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why.
But everyone's is different. And I enjoy reading this thread with an open-mind. As MissSkittles said, there's not unified theory. I guess that as long as we fight for women's rights, we're all pretty much in the same boat.
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i'm what you might describe as hyper-feminine (society's label, not mine; i'm using it here to facilitate discussion only), and i don't appreciate the suggestion that there is something wrong with being that way. that's who i am.
have i misunderstood? do you think we (as in humanity, male and female) should all force ourselves to embody society's notion of masculinity and eschew the traits that have been traditionally considered feminine altogether? or do you mean that we need to move past rigid notions of which traits each gender may or may not possess?
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I don't think there IS anything wrong with stereotypical, traditional "femininity." But "femininity" is not a synonym for "female" and "masculinity" is not a synonym for "male." I do not agree with privileging masculinity over femininity AT ALL. What I take issue with is the notion that men and men only MUST perform masculinity (as it's understood) and women and women only MUST perform femininity (as it's understood). I shudder when people say we women can be equal and still be feminine, as though femininity were an inborn, female trait or something - like our DNA makes us like dresses with flowers on them.
Please note that I am not putting DOWN dresses with flowers on them. In fact I quite like them. I am putting down gender essentialism.
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my midwest upbringing is showing, isn't it? hhhhh.
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"But when a man opens the door for me, I just can't get myself to think as that as sexist. Don't know why."
Because it's good manners. That whole opening doors argument is about as lame as anything I've ever heard, and I especially hate hearing it from misogynist men.
I realize in reading all of this that I am an OLD FEMINIST. I"m one of the old bats that's annoying some of you younger feminists.
I'm 53 years old. I've had a lifetime to think about all this. I remember being told as a teenaged girl that if women wanted rights, they had to earn them, and nodding along, as if that weren't the biggest bucket of bullshit. It took a while for me to realize that a bucket that was. When I did, I became a somewhat militant feminist, a mode I stayed in for quite a long time.
What I know now is this - feminism has to be regarded as constantly evolving. We old bats were right about a lot of stuff. We worried about some stuff that really isn't all that important. (pornography) I worry about the downward slide - I see so many gains we made just slipping away, while younger women choose not to be "feminists" because it's become a dirty word.
The price of women's rights is constant vigilance.
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hell yeah it does, lady
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