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clevernamehere
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I think the issue is that clothing designers don't really see themselves as out to make money. They see themselves as artists. They have an idea of what they want their clothes to look like that is more important to them than increasing profits.

It makes sense that carrying more sizes would increase profit, but then I know Old Navy shunted their plus size stuff online. Was that a brand decision or was it honestly not selling? It doesn't really matter what size the average woman wears if the people buying clothing aren't distributed across sizes the same way.
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psychgirl1221
11/24/09

@clevernamehere: A common complaint among plus sized fashion designers and specialty boutiques is that plus sized women don't speak with their wallets. We complain about designers not offering clothes in our sizes, but when it comes down to it, plus women overwhelmingly tend to spend less money on clothes. However, that really doesn't explain why Old Navy moved their plus line to online only.

I wonder if part of the reason why plus sizes are disappearing is the popularity of online shopping. It doesn't make much sense to not try anything on if you are having fit problems. However, I can wear anything from an 18 in regular misses sizes to a 22w or 25 in juniors plus. There is no standardization. Sometimes it is more convenient to order online than to waste hours at the mall, hoping that a store has my size.
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clevernamehere
11/24/09

@psychgirl1221: I'm within the "normal" range of sizes and I like to do a lot of online shopping because I can try things on at home with pieces I already own. I only usually do it when I can get free shipping though.

I was really surprised when the plus sizes disappeared from the Old Navy in NYC because they seem to do crazy business in every section, but I tend to doubt they would get rid of a profitable division. Old Navy isn't Donna Karan- there is no image. I would guess that some women are uncomfortable with their size and don't like to shop, some do what I do, and because plus sized women tend to be older, they have more clothes to begin with.

Re: sizing. Sizing isn't standardized well, but what you're describing doesn't surprise me. Juniors is designed to be the smallest (and shortest) since it is meant for teens- an 8 in juniors is supposed to be smaller than an 8 in misses.
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BytheSea
11/24/09

@psychgirl1221: "Plus size women don't vote with their wallets" is the biggest whiny buck passing ever. We are voting with our wallets- we don't like any of the ugly overpriced shit you grudgingly halfassedly don't even TRY to sell us. Because it doesn't fit and it doesn't look good because a size 18 woman is not a size 2 twinkie just made bigger.

(Like, for example, why do they make size 20 daisy dukes? Why does Sears corporate buy as many of them as they do for size 2, and then when they don't sell, designers' take-away is that fat women don't buy clothes.)
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Edited by BytheSea at 11/24/09 10:54 PM BytheSea was starred BytheSea was unstarred

Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Fuck you, Angela Missoni. This makes me want to squeeze into the smallest size you have and walk around yelling "I AM WEARING MISSONI AND I'M FAT!!! MISSONI LUVS FAT PEOPLE"
The only problem with this plan is that it would require me to actually buy your clothes.
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Vulcan Has No Moon
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Steal them.
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BetteD
11/25/09

@Vulcan Has No Moon: @Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: I love you both. I am laughing my ass off right now.
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rodmanstreet
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Someone here once said (and if it was you, please identify yourself so I can heart you) that the issue of plus sized clothing was like the battle between greed and vanity, and vanity won out. Because if these designers were greedy, they'd look at the plus sized demographic and their eyes would go $$!!!
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

@rodmanstreet: That was me, but I stole it from another commenter a very long time ago and tweaked it a bit. I think what a posted (and what I think every time I see posts on clothing and plus sizes) is that it is our love of the dollar and our love of thinness coming smack dab against each other. It amazes me that a love of thinness (or hatred of fatness) is what is strongest in the end because I thought nothing could trump American's love of the almighty dollar.
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rodmanstreet
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: Gosh darn it, I already hearted you long ago. Well put, though.
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colormeroutine
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I don't get what's wrong with the Missoni quote. The rest of them yes, but not that one. I cannot count the number of times I have been pushed into buying something by salespeople just trying to make a sale only to wind up donating it unworn because it in fact looks like crap. I'd rather you tell me it looks like crap so I don't waste my money on it and point me towards something else than that.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/24/09

@colormeroutine: The problem is that she specifically uses women "squeezed into an outfit" as an example of someone wearing ill fitting clothes. If she had left it at, "I don't want women to wear ill-fitting clothes," there would be no problem with the quote. However, because she chooses to focus on larger women trying to fit into a smaller size (as opposed to the myriad of short, tall or thin women that wear garments that don't fit) she is singling out fat women and revealing the true intention of her message which is, "I don't want fat people to wear my outfits."
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noisy doll
11/24/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: It's not just fat women who squeeze themselves into the wrong clothes. My former roommate was a size 6 but had all of her fat concentrated around the belly and top of the hips, and didn't pay any attention to fit. She would constantly buy clothes that were not right for her, so they were either falling off or cutting into her. I also see "skinny girls" all the time with muffin tops in their mall-shuffling jeans.
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Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.
11/25/09

@noisy doll: Look at the wording in your comment, "all of her fat was concentrated around the belly" and "muffin-tops in their mall-shuffling jeans." While both of these phrases may not be specific to fat women, they are about fat. It's not just that she doesn't want fat people in her outfits, she doesn't want the people who wear her clothes to have fat.
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noisy doll
11/25/09

@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: That's probably the best way to put it, yeah. I think it's kind of ridiculous that it's not even enough to simply be small in measurements, but you also can't be squishy in any way to look good in so many designers' clothes. Particularly jeans. I mostly can't stand jeans, even though I wear them as often as anyone else. grr.
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JennaW
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Even when you can fit into stuff, though, most things in the malls and shops are aimed at such a narrow, narrow group of girls.

Every time there's a miserable retailer "didn't hit our target" report, I just want to slap them all and shout, "I had money and NO WHERE TO SPEND IT, you MORONS!"

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to wear clothes meant for a 17-year-old sylph. It is neither age- nor lifestyle-appropriate for me, and the only other options are active wear and suits -- what about just regular clothes that don't show my boobs to my coworkers?

Gap used to be pretty good for me, but they've decided providing awesome, wearable jeans for people who don't look good OR don't want to go around in denim leggings is not the direction they want to go in.
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bluebears
11/24/09

@JennaW: thank.you. Which is why I'm nervous about the aforementioned Ann Taylor makeover. anyone know any more details about this?
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awinoforever
11/24/09

@JennaW: the gap completely re-made and re-vamped their denim line this fall. it is incredible. i hated their jeans for years but tried them out because i was bored while my husband was looking for good khakis. they actually have a variety of styles to correspond with a variety of body types and the denim is very high quality. this is coming from a jean snob who usually only wears j brand, paper denim and paige premium.
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JennaW
11/24/09

@awinoforever: Well, *I* liked them before. But from what they're showing on their website, they seem to have eliminated the styles I liked best without a good correlative replacement.

However, I'll go have an actual try-on to be fair, since you say they're awesome now (still? And because they were my go-to, and I hate having start over for basics and classic stuff).

Thanks!
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ElleL
11/24/09

@bluebears: Not a big change really, they look just like Jcrew now.
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awinoforever
11/24/09

@JennaW: i thought you meant you liked them before the second to last revamp? they've redone the line so much in the last ten years i guess it's hard to keep track!

but i would def give it a shot. i personally loved the "long and lean" cuts, "curvy" fit was nice as well. beware of the skinny though! i'll let youfigure out who that's clearly supposed to be for.
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kerry
11/24/09

@awinoforever: Yes! I had totally sworn off Gap jeans for years, because their shit was a nightmare on my body. This fall I discovered that all my usual favorites changed their denim fits to be all wrong on me (screw you, Ann Taylor Loft!) but the Gap went the other way and made jeans that fit me perfectly. I tried on about 6 styles and they all fit correctly where they should. I wish the denim itself was higher quality, but I can't complain about the cuts and styles.
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Jenloveshercurves
11/24/09

@kerry: I think that Gap went to the same cuts that Banana uses, which makes me happy because for years Banana has been the only company I buy jeans at. I always found it odd that Gap's jeans were awful on me but Banana was great and they were owned by the same company. It was weird.
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Dictator for Life
11/24/09

@awinoforever: I've worn Diesel for years and they fit well, but I bought a couple of pairs of J Brand when Bloomingdales had a denim sale. They fit so strangely! They are super-tight on my thighs, but loose on my butt. My butt is kind of large-ish, and I am far from used to pulling up my pants. It feels like I'm wearing a diaper. Is this just the way they fit? Because I am not a fan.
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Penny
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Honestly, and I am saying this from experience, a lot of people who enter into the fashion industry are self-loathing. Probably has a lot to do with it in the end. They just convince themselves that it's a financial decision or that their market will not support it.
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bellzar08
11/24/09

@Penny: From what experience? I'm curious. :)
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Penny
11/24/09

@bellzar08: Just talking about a lot of people I've met in my years. Only half serious, really. Maybe 60/40.
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bellzar08
11/25/09

@Penny: Oh, so you don't work in fashion?

#tips
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sportz.star
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
I think that's being overly harsh of Tory and not nearly harsh enough on Stella. Tory likes seeing women feel good in her clothes (presumably why they wear them) and has a added a size rare in higher end clothing to her line. Kudos (if insufficient). Stella has been told by women that they can't wear her clothes and she has done precisely nada.
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bluebears
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
Ann Taylor is having a makeover????
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lilyHaze
11/24/09

@bluebears: Yes, there are a lot more J.Crew-ish looks around now. They changed the head designer. They still have the fairly boring, classic workwear. But now there are more fashion-forward items now. (Think lots of ruffles.)
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bluebears
11/24/09

@lilyHaze: as long as they keep basic staples I'm fine with it.
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lermanzo
11/24/09

In reply to "We’re Not Just Dressing 17-Year-Olds Who Go Nightclubbing In Russia."
oh, how nice of Burch to expand to size 14 when the average size in america is size 16, last i checked. le sigh.
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femme-bot
11/24/09

@lermanzo: I thought it was 14? But sizes are different in every store, so it really doesn't tell us much.
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lilyHaze
11/24/09

@femme-bot: A designer 14 is different than regular 14. A designer 14 may be a regular 12.

I've lost weight in the past 2 years. I've gone down a size or two in the low-to-mid designers. But I still wear the same size in designer clothing (bought at a discount!).
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femme-bot
11/24/09

@lilyHaze: Hm, in my experience some designers (ahem, Marc Jacobs) run pretty big and I sometimes need to go down a size or two. But yeah, some others can run small.
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LaFemme
11/24/09

@lermanzo: Yeah...that figure may be kind of misleading though since (as I think I saw on here in a linked article) that is a true average- meaning it takes in EVERYONE on both ends of the spectrum and pops out this size. For retail purposes, you would want to look more at what your biggest group is, and provide clothing based on that group. I think that is the 6-10 range, so by targetting this group you get the most number of people who will want your clothes, then go a few sizes smaller and a few larger.

This may not be true, but judging by experience of shopping sales (where you usually find the tiniest and largest sizes on the racks) I can see it being the case. If you think of it this way it does make a bit more sense why designers wouldn't feel tons of pressure to extend their lines sizes to go into plus sizes or petites.
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lermanzo
11/24/09

@LaFemme: well, what about me? i'm not plus-sized, either. a 2005 article from the chicago trib (can't find it, only references) says 62% of women are over size 14.

and in my experience, the only clothes that fit me are mom clothes from mom stores. also, the sale racks i see are STUFFED with 2s, 6s, and 10s
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LaFemme
11/24/09

@lermanzo: I didn't say that if if designers are targetting the largest groupings of sizes it wouldnt suck hard for a whole bunch of people, it does. I am in between size ranges, and it blows to have to sometimes pay the cost of a top in alterations alone. I just don't think every designer and clothing store out there is ignoring their bottom lines by not offering sizes 0000-30.
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lermanzo
11/24/09

@LaFemme: if 62% of women are over a 14, they aren't.
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BytheSea
11/24/09

@femme-bot: That's the trditional wisdom - the more high class the clothes, the smaller the size. Most women are shocked that their wedding dress is the smallest thing they'll ever buy in their life.
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J.D.Regent
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line
Anointed! Like Christ? So funny. I love your posts on the Kimberly Process in Zim and on the Goldstone scarves! Fashion matters, people. #ragtrade
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LvV
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line
I am not trying to be mean, but Lily Cole's cakes are probably not very good. Cooking allows for many freedoms (and that salad she's describing sounds delicious) but baking is a science and requires precise amounts to turn out properly.

/cookie nerd #zoekravitz
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Ratinski
11/06/09

@LvV: Definitely. One of my friends is a stellar cook and a terrible baker, because she can't just toss things in. She claims it's boring.

I claim it's just as creative; you just have to be carefully creative. #zoekravitz
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Hana Maru
11/07/09

@LvV: I know a guy who bragged that he made awsome cakes just like Lily Cole, mixing this and that, and guessing the amounts. The one time I actually tasted his cake, it was dense and horrible, but I didn't have the heart to say so. He's a really nice, generous person. I suspect something similar's going on with Cole and her friends. #zoekravitz
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perfidia
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line

Olivier Zahm: Definitely has Booger's hair. #zoekravitz
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line
True confessions: I have actually worn the mary-kateandashley makeup. They made a really kick ass gold metallic eye shadow pencil that I used to rock in high school. #zoekravitz
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dj_chick
11/06/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I still have a couple of their eyeshadows. I've had them for years and should probably toss them, but now it's like they're a relic or something ... #zoekravitz
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LBB
11/06/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: They had a peach flavored sparkly lip gloss that was *the shit*. I still have a tube of it somewhere... #zoekravitz
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Hana Maru
11/07/09

@Zombie Ms. Skittles: I have too! I bought a bunch of it at once, like 5 years ago, because they had things packaged together and then they were buy one get one free, and they were cheap. It was good makeup, especially the lip gloss. I used everything until they were done and I still have the dark brown eyeliner.

It is a little embarrassing. One of my friends peeked in my makeup bag and was like "I didn't know you were a Mary Kate and Ashley fan" #zoekravitz
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Penny
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line
I have very strong opinions about Eileen Fisher. I worked in a boutique that sold her things when I was in college and, regardless of the "image" she's going for (fuck, it's fashion), she IS a godsend to a lot of women. If you can sell a cute pair of linen drawstring pants in XS to a 19 year old like me and dress a size 22 who is 50 and a professional, you're doing something right.

Fisher's ads feature a pretty wide range of women (ages, races and yes, sizes). She doesn't need to target the plus-size market because they already flock to her.

Also, Rosie bugs me. Does Donna Karan go for a plus size image? No. #ragtrade
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lilyHaze
11/06/09

@Penny: It's not my kind of style, but Eileen Fisher clothing seems to be very well made. Many of the brands catering to plus sizes seem to be very cheaply made.

If I go to a higher end department store and look at plus sizes, the style is very dowdy and matronly. There are young, plus size women who have the money to buy nice things.
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hortense promoted this comment Edited by lilyHaze at 11/06/09 12:09 PM lilyHaze was starred lilyHaze was unstarred

Jenna
11/06/09

@Penny: I agree about the designs -- I actually love some of Eileen Fisher's pieces. (Most of them I stole from my mum, but you know.)

However, it is true the company is consciously chasing a younger "hipper" customer -- they certainly collaborated with a Times article stating same -- and that strikes me as foolish.

And if Fisher herself said what O'Donnell reports, to her very face, that is just downright mean.
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Edited by Jenna at 11/06/09 12:06 PM Jenna was starred Jenna was unstarred

Penny
11/06/09

@Jenna: Ah, well, I have admittedly not paid much attention to the company in recent years (besides seeing ads here and there). Bummer. #zoekravitz
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Penny
11/06/09

@Penny: But Rosie still bugs me :-) #zoekravitz
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ardentlilac
11/06/09

@Jenna: I agree. I'm not one to ditch good design willy nilly, but Fisher's rudeness to a happy, loyal customer tells me I shouldn't express any more gratitude to Eileen Fisher with my hard-earned money because clearly my fat behind insults her business.

Famous person talking about and wearing your clothes = great advertising. Famous person telling fans how rude and ungrateful clothing designer is = bad advertising. That's how social media works, lady. #zoekravitz
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madeofawesome
11/06/09

In reply to Zoe Kravitz For Vera; Mary-Kate & Ashley Close Beauty Line
Zac Efron can wear my favorite jeans for eight weeks to get them to look "perfectly lived-in." I don't mind. Honestly. #ragtrade
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Sanfo
11/06/09

@madeofawesome: I'd like to see if his theory works on my bed, and I'm willing to hire him to find out. #zoekravitz
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