How are you a feminist in "some ways' but not in others?
Like...you believe women should have equal rights...mostly? Except when you don't?
Femnism isn't about proving that you're equal. It's about making sure that the law actually reflects that (it doesn't), and that we question cultural and social norms that seek to limit that equality.
So unless sometimes she thinks women shouldn't have equal rights, that makes no sense.
I can't even touch the ED comment because I'm kind of tired of people asking models about it. They tend to say the same thing...it's all the media, or it's barely the media. It's not particularly nuanced and it just furthers the idea that ED's are superficial. #cindycrawford
She says that fashion can't be blamed for EDs (and no, I don't think they are the only cause, of course) because it's more about self esteem - but isn't our thin-obsessed media culture greatly reinforcing low self esteem? It's how they get people to buy the clothes. So while I don't think the media is the main cause of EDs, I don't think the effect is minimal. #cindycrawford
Gahh. I hate these kinds of quotes about feminism. Like 'Well I guess because I believe in equal rights and equal pay and all that but...' No! No but! Full stop. #cindycrawford
@futuremouse: yeah, but I also think that when someone fully proclaims herself to be a feminist, then the scrutiny begins on that side. I understand, I think I am a feminist, but also have a hard time completely reconciling parts of myself that maybe are not. I think that is the reason, at least for me, that I sometimes qualify statements myself. so I understand her doing the same. #cindycrawford
@futuremouse: They're scared of being "unattractive". Barf. When I'm asked that question, I repeat my favorite Courtney Love quotation, " I am a bomb-throwing feminist." Just so ya know! #cindycrawford
@Penny: Especially when you read the whole answer:
Q: Fashion gets blamed for encouraging eating disorders.
"That's a little bit of a stretch. I don't know that much about eating disorders, but I'm certainly not one of the people they've blamed, because I'm not super-skinny. I think people want to find something to blame. An eating disorder is way more than a girl looking at a magazine and seeing a picture of a skinny model. Maybe that's one tiny piece of the puzzle, but I think it's a lot more about self-esteem and self-love and control, so it's too simplistic to just blame it on models who are skinny." #cindycrawford
@Penny: For sure. Too often I feel the media is blamed entirely for ED. It is most definitely a contribution, but if it were the direct cause, all women would have ED, as the media's concept of beauty is inescapable in our society. #cindycrawford
@Penny: Well, we've had this conversation before, I think, but I don't see how people can maintain that culture has only a minimal effect on EDs. I mean, let's assume ED sufferers are biologically preprogrammed to believe they need to become invisible. The culture certainly helps them out by ratifying their inner feelings as true, no? #cindycrawford
@PilgrimSoul: I have no idea about this, but I wonder about the ED rates in cultures where skinny does not equal ideal. I understand there are a ton of things at play in EDs, but I can't see how a thin-obsessed culture like ours can have only a minimal effect on EDs. #cindycrawford
@PilgrimSoul: I'm loathe to accept that I ever had a diagnosable ED, but having a lot of experience with "troubles" I can say that while I did have photos of very thin models taped into my journals and thin women in general were an inspiration of sorts, I don't think they were a main factor. At all. In fact, as I still deal with purging behaviors, I can tell you that a photo of a thin woman is never the catalyst. ED behaviors are generally driven by a need for control, or punishment, etc etc. So, while it is a contributing factor, and I would never disagree with this, I still do not believe it's the main factor, nor do I think it should be blamed as such. #cindycrawford
@Penny: I would like to add to this, however, that this is MY personal experience. And while general claims can be made about EDs, I don't speak for anyone else's experience. Just what I have gotten from my own. #cindycrawford
@descent: Because it's not just about being thin, but a culture that thrives on perfection and success. You have to look at the overall culture, not just beauty ideals. #cindycrawford
@lolabee: Well, I would argue that our culture in particular promotes two extreme body types, very thin and very womanly. The latter often requiring surgery.
@Penny: I agree that it's not the main factor, but to say it's just a minimal factor is sort of glossing over things. For some, eating disorders involve a need to be "perfect" (stemming from a belief that one is deeply flawed, or unlovable and must be fixed). In today's world, being perfect includes being thin, and we're constantly receiving that message from the media and fashion industry. Having had an ED, I certainly know that there was more at work than just media images, but for myself and the many other women I've known who've struggled with EDs and disordered eating, the thinsperational media barrage was always a full backdrop, not just a tiny sliver piercing our consciousness. #cindycrawford
@tallgirl-in-heels: I think, more than anything, it acts as a constant, numbing reminder. Because it's so deeply ingrained in our culture, at this point, it's inescapable. I don't think it's a tiny piercing, but I also don't think it's the main issue. Personally, that is. #cindycrawford
@PilgrimSoul: I'd agree. I feel like the ED discussion always ends up in these extremes...it's ALL the medias fault! It's ALL personal issues!
It's just as fair to say that self-esteem isn't the main issue in an eating disorder, since plenty of people have that and don' t try to starve themselves to death (bearing in mind that not all ED's are restrictive).
Each individual has different triggers, different reasons why an ED was/is their outlet. Not only does our culture idealize slim bodies, but it also idealizes body control, weight control, and dieting/food. Our culture has an extremely dysfunctional attitude about women and their bodies, our role in the world, everything.
To me, it's the conflict between all of it that helps create an ED in the individual. It's all interrelated.
@judgingamy: I dislike the all blame being laid on the media as well, but for a slightly different. It's too simplistic and dismissive. It's a way of making ED's seem superficial and almost "silly", something vapid girls develop because of aesthetics.
It's certainly a component for some people but it's not all of it.
I think the media perpetuates certain cultural ideals, which influences the individual. So it's a component. But trying to make ED's only one thing bothers me. It feels like a way to ignore the complex nature of them. #cindycrawford
@descent: In non-Western cultures EDs are practically non-existent. The higher the Western influence over their culture, the higher the ED prevalence. In societies that are getting increasingly modernised/Westernised they are starting to see eating disorders appear. Anorexia is so limited to the Western world as to be considered a culture-bound syndrome. It is a very, very culturally informed illness. There is no getting around that. #cindycrawford
I like a lot of her sentiments, but I find some of them infuriating - and opinions that I've run into before. Feminists don't set out to 'prove' a point that they already know; as Crawford pointed out, the point is already proven. The problem is that this fact does not always translate into social spheres, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out when it happens and changing it.
Furthermore, while self-esteem does play a large role in eating disabilities, I do not think it is reasonable to say that the fashion industry does not create a climate that is detrimental to the self-esteem of young girls. Much of the marketing that is out there today is all about improvement, improvement, improvement, buy this product, try this exercise, do this, do that, don't do that - there is a low historical precedent for the message that young girls are good enough just the way they are. #cindycrawford
On the other hand, there've been a number of surveys in the last few years suggesting that men, on average, prefer women who are several sizes larger than the fashion industry standard, and than what women consider to be the ideal size.
Not that women should be deciding what they want to look like based on male preferences or national averages or whatever, but it does seem to be generally true that the "super-skinny" ideal is not really an ideal established and propagated by men who are sexually attracted to women.
As to what this has to do with gay men, I don't know, except that I'm assuming gay men may have slightly different standards as to what constitutes "attractive" than straight men do.
I know that I have different standards for male attractiveness than my gay friends, so--whether statistically supported or not--it seems that the conclusion isn't completely outlandish. #fashion
I think Dr. Irene Rubaum-Keller has hit the nail right on the head. As a gay man, nothing screams "sexy" to me louder than a girl with a pair of tits like a dish of fried eggs. And remember--it's not as if fashion has ever, ever, ever changed or as if larger, more full-figured women weren't considered sexy and glamorous in recent times or as if women have any say at all, at all, at all, at all in how they perceive themselves or the ideals they want to attain. "Ana-friendly" sites? Gay men's wank stations, every one of them (Corbin Fisher? Who he?)! Beth Ditto? No gay following whatsoever! Drag queens? Rail-thin lovelies, the lot of them! Dr. Irene Rubaum-Keller full of fucking shit? Absolutely nuh-uh! #fashion
My ex-bf used to ask me all the time why women try to emulate fashion models and read fashion magazines since the fashion world is dominated by gay men. I thought it had more to do with female self-hatred. I find it funny that all the sexual imagery marketed to men (porn, strippers, lingerie models) all portray women as ultra-feminine with the classic hour-glass figure. While that may be as much of an unrealistic frame as stick-thin models, at least it focuses on accentuating a woman's natural body type. All of the images marketed to women portray the ideal female as the exact opposite. They have pre-pubescent features.
@heywhat: Not true. The difference between Vogue and Maxim/Playboy is usually 6 inches of height, 8 lbs. and 3 cup sizes (those pounds aren't wasted on hips and midriffs, oh no). The male ideal has changed too. Women used to be a lot "softer", but now the "ultra-feminine" ideal is sinewy and lean, save the chest area.
I think she's saying that straight men like T&A on a girl, and I think that's a valid criticism about the fashion industry. The models in magazines who are 'shopped to praying mantis proportions don't look anything like the girls men want to fuck, at least according to porn. The fashion industry likes models who make for good clothes hangers. I wouldn't go so far to say that it's a gay male dominated field, but i will say that fahion models are supposed to represent a certain kind of artistry that displays a fashion artistry, not an ideal woman body shape according to anyone who has an opinion on what an ideal woman looks like. #fashion
@BytheSea: I certainly don't think you can base what guys like on porn. Anyway, I've known plenty of straight dudes in my life and I've learned you can NEVER tell what any of them might find attractive. Which is why it's nice women come in all shapes, sizes, colors etc... #fashion
As a gay man, I ask "Why would a gay man consider a woman to be attractive at all?" The fact that we find men to be attractive is a big part of what makes us gay, no? In fact, if a gay man is attracted to a woman, even "super-skinny model", wouldn't he be considered straight? If Irene Hyphen-Hyphen intended to say "Only Gay Men Find Super-Skinny Models Enjoyable To Gaze Upon", I still would disagree with her. And I would like to buy that Overweight Barbie.
11/12/09
Like...you believe women should have equal rights...mostly? Except when you don't?
Femnism isn't about proving that you're equal. It's about making sure that the law actually reflects that (it doesn't), and that we question cultural and social norms that seek to limit that equality.
So unless sometimes she thinks women shouldn't have equal rights, that makes no sense.
I can't even touch the ED comment because I'm kind of tired of people asking models about it. They tend to say the same thing...it's all the media, or it's barely the media. It's not particularly nuanced and it just furthers the idea that ED's are superficial. #cindycrawford
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is like saying "I'm not a Christian, but ... " and then reciting the Nicene Creed. #cindycrawford
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Q: Fashion gets blamed for encouraging eating disorders.
"That's a little bit of a stretch. I don't know that much about eating disorders, but I'm certainly not one of the people they've blamed, because I'm not super-skinny. I think people want to find something to blame. An eating disorder is way more than a girl looking at a magazine and seeing a picture of a skinny model. Maybe that's one tiny piece of the puzzle, but I think it's a lot more about self-esteem and self-love and control, so it's too simplistic to just blame it on models who are skinny." #cindycrawford
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It's just as fair to say that self-esteem isn't the main issue in an eating disorder, since plenty of people have that and don' t try to starve themselves to death (bearing in mind that not all ED's are restrictive).
Each individual has different triggers, different reasons why an ED was/is their outlet. Not only does our culture idealize slim bodies, but it also idealizes body control, weight control, and dieting/food. Our culture has an extremely dysfunctional attitude about women and their bodies, our role in the world, everything.
To me, it's the conflict between all of it that helps create an ED in the individual. It's all interrelated.
11/12/09
It's certainly a component for some people but it's not all of it.
I think the media perpetuates certain cultural ideals, which influences the individual. So it's a component. But trying to make ED's only one thing bothers me. It feels like a way to ignore the complex nature of them. #cindycrawford
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11/12/09
Furthermore, while self-esteem does play a large role in eating disabilities, I do not think it is reasonable to say that the fashion industry does not create a climate that is detrimental to the self-esteem of young girls. Much of the marketing that is out there today is all about improvement, improvement, improvement, buy this product, try this exercise, do this, do that, don't do that - there is a low historical precedent for the message that young girls are good enough just the way they are. #cindycrawford
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10/18/09
Not that women should be deciding what they want to look like based on male preferences or national averages or whatever, but it does seem to be generally true that the "super-skinny" ideal is not really an ideal established and propagated by men who are sexually attracted to women.
As to what this has to do with gay men, I don't know, except that I'm assuming gay men may have slightly different standards as to what constitutes "attractive" than straight men do.
I know that I have different standards for male attractiveness than my gay friends, so--whether statistically supported or not--it seems that the conclusion isn't completely outlandish. #fashion
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Right. Because "gay" is the same as "liking young boys." #fashion
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