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South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape

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SunburnedCounsel
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
I think this man is exactly what we're talking about when we discuss men needing to be where rape prevention is happening. In every thread about rape, there is discussion (rightly) about victim-blaming, and rape culture, and about how short skirts don't create rape, rape culture, and rapists do. And here is this man, saying exactly that. "Here is how men are encouraged to rape, and here's how we have to change". Writing him off as a rapist with nothing of value to say is not part of a solution.
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inabook
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Reading this is very interesting, and strange, because of the mixed emotions it stirs up. I'll admit that I'd much prefer to believe that any man who could rape is a monster, nothing more. Yet this guy... is clearly not a monster now, regardless of what he was then.

And that-- the idea that not all rapists are just monsters, but that they could be normal men too-- is chilling.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
06/26/09

@inabook: This is important. Really most rapists are not pathological. They are our fathers, sons, friends and lovers. They go on to live normal lives and have normal relationships with women. It's the society we all live in that's pathological, that men are taught that it's normal and okay to pressure, cajole, use alcohol and GHB, anything to get sex from women, while it's women's job to prevent and stop their own rapes.
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Blueberry26
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
I was reading some of the comments on the site with the story, and I was interested in the fact that most were made by men, and many said they would/could not forgive this man. And that's understandable. But at the same time, I wonder how many of these men have ever called a woman a slut or a prude, or felt that any woman deserved being assaulted or raped because of the way she dressed. How many have cat-called, or made comments about a woman's body unsolicited. It may not be on the same level, but it comes from the same place: a lack of respect for women.

I'm glad that many men feel so passionately against rape, but I fear that they do not look at the things they themselves do that perpetuate the rape culture.
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Mafalda para Presidente
06/25/09

@Blueberry26: I don't think it's in our place to forgive him, though. That's between him and his victim.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Also I just want people to think about the South Africa that this man grew up in -- he is in his forties now, he was a teenager then, he was living in a rural "homeland" under a violent apartheid regime. Not that it excuses anything, but we are talking about a very different context to now.
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stealthird
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
"I think that we raise boys in the wrong way". Bingo. That goes for the United States too, and just about every other country on earth, as a matter of fact...
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TakeADeepBreath
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
There are some harsh words from people here. Did you guys actually read the article?

This man (who was just a boy at the time) participated in something that he didnt want to do. Immediately felt guilty afterwards, and has devoted his life to preventing this from happening again.

He has repented, through both his words and his actions.
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TakeADeepBreath
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath: Posted before I was done... Also wanted to add that as bad as it may sound, I think the words coming from his mouth may be more effective in stopping other young men from going down the same path than someone who hasn't been through it.

These kids need someone they can relate to in order for a message to really hit home.
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stoprobbers
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath: I said that in a reply above. He was forced to rape, and has devoted his life to preventing it, to eradicating that cultural compulsion. That is absolutely the cue to forgive him, and support him.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath:Thank you! I'm glad no one is here judging my past because I think we would all be in trouble. What do you think countries that are post-conflict have to do? We have to keep living beside each other in the world, we can't just put all the "bad" people on an island or something.
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Samanthrax
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath: I couldn't agree more. He can't undo what he was forced to do, all he can do it try stop it from happening again.
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mbprice
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: You can if there's a Smoke Monster and mysteries!
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stealthird
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath: I read the article and I agree with you. He's doing the right things.
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elephante
06/25/09

@stoprobbers: I think "forced" is a bit of a stretch...
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NellMood
06/25/09

@TakeADeepBreath: I totally agree. He did a terrible thing, as a teenager, and has obviously done a lot of work to redeem himself, and to actually make a change in society. People who do bad things can change and ultimately contribute greatly.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@mbprice: actually as soon as I posted it i was like welllll there's always Palau!
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mbprice
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: Hahaha. LOST mystery solved! They're all former suspected-terrorist detainees and the island is Palau and everything else is the result of mind-altering drugs they were given during torture sessions. J.J. Abrams does it again!
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elephante
06/25/09

@Samanthrax is Sarcastic: Again, I think it's a huge leap from "pressured" to "forced." I agree with the general sentiment here, but let's not completely eliminate personal responsibility either.
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CurtCole
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: @TakeADeepBreath: Well said.
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YourScreenplaySucks
06/25/09

@Eriu: It is a stretch. When you're peer pressured, you have a choice. A difficult one, perhaps, but a choice.
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Mafalda para Presidente
06/25/09

@Eriu: Perhaps, but let's not ignore the strong social repercussions he may have faced. Perhaps it's time to consider how strong peer pressure can be, and to be a little more forgiving, seeing how he was really young and has obviously done everything he can to redeem himself.
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PandaBearPuffer
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Not that I'm excusing his actions in any way, but I think this is a good example of how patriarchy and the machismo attitude is harmful to everyone... male and female...
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Laulau
06/25/09

@PandaBearPuffer: So true. And also how combatting patriarchy requires help across the board. The first time this hit me (like a ton of bricks, I might add) was when I was arguing with an ex about the possibility of raising kids in a very traditional, patriarchal religion. My first response was "I'd never raise my daughters that way!" And then it immediately dawned on me - I'd never raise sons that way either!!!
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Laulau
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
On the one hand, I usually think that someone who can rape has been seriously psychologically damaged in some way or other. How could you be a decent person who just happens to do such a thing? On the other hand, if it's truly one out of four there who have committed rape, I'm unwilling to dismiss 25% of the men as unsalvageable. At least this man apologized and is drawing attention. It can't be easy to publicize your wrongs in this way.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@Laulau: I think it is a common misconception that someone has to be crazy to commit violent and horrible acts against others. I actually think we are all capable of such acts, given the "right"/wrong circumstances.
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: It actually really bothers me when people refer to criminals as "monsters" (I hear this term thrown around a lot in regards to rape, terrorism, and genocide). I think calling people "monsters" makes it seem as though they are special somehow, when often they are just ordinary people. When you are unwilling to see that, you turn a blind eye to the context that contributed to their behaviors, and therefore lose a valuable opportunity to work to change that context. There is a lot of good work out there about ordinary men doing monstrous things as relates to the Holocaust of WWII.
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save jinger
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
As much as we might not want to admit it, rapists are people, too, and their actions are not random. I'm glad he realized what caused him to do this and is now doing something to try and break the cycle.
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kithkin
06/25/09

@save jinger: Isn't it astonishing, though, that he went back in person to meet his victim? Talking to young men about the importance of not raping women is crucial, of course. As far as I can see, that is the best direction of this activist's anti-rape energies. Talking with victims? I don't know if I can get behind that.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@kithkin: I assume that he got her permission first. Perps talking to victims is a major part of a lot of restorative justice initaitives, but it almost always requires consent from the victim. From the way he told the story she sounded like a local girl, maybe she knew him anyway.
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save jinger
06/25/09

@kithkin: Good point, but I think it probably depends on the victim. Some victims might not want to face their attacker ever again, but some might want to know that he had realized what he did was wrong and was going to do something about the problem. I think if you're going to see your attacker again, that's probably the least awful way it could happen. I'm sure it wasn't easy, but she did forgive him for what he did.
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pantsless economist...access RESTORED
06/25/09

@save jinger: Good point. THere are a lot of societal factors at work. Obviously, he's responsible for his own actions, but it's great that he's owning up to what he's done wrong and working to reduce it in the future.
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Ailatan
06/25/09

@save jinger: well said, actions don't happen in a vacuum, and even if what he did is despicable a whole society and gender norms encourage this sort of behaviour.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: just kidding! didn't read it carefully enough. sorry kithkin!
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Emee
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Wht's p wth tht whl cntnnt? Srsly
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NellMood
06/25/09

@Emee: Ugh, stop it.
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angelheadedhipster
06/25/09

@Emee: Seriously? I'm gonna pretend/hope that's satire...
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casi nadie
06/25/09

@Emee: Really? Are you condemning an entire continent because of one problem? It would be a hell of a lot more accurate to say "What's up with this whole world?" because the last time I checked, there's not a place on earth that doesn't have a huge problem with sexual assault.
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cwisto moweina has got yer goat
06/25/09

@Emee: oh, here we go....
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chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish
06/25/09

@Emee: Sarah Palin, is that you?
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Laulau
06/25/09

@all: you guys, remember what the editors asked us the other day? Just ignore this.
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this_mad_woman
06/25/09

@Emee: i think comments like this are really unhelpful. i know it's an easy thing to say, and that many countries in africa have notoriously high rates of violence and rape against women, but lumping the entire continent together is a really easy way out to just be like, "oh, crazy africa!" when some countries are trying very hard to make progressive strides. at the G8 International Parliamentarians' Conference this year, leaders from senegal and kenya made a point to stand up for women's reproductive health issues and health, and i think it's important to be very careful not to look at africa as any kind of a whole but as a continent full of countries with varied histories ([blog.iwhc.org])
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Samanthrax
06/25/09

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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@Emee: Grandma? Did you learn how to turn on the computer?
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angelheadedhipster
06/25/09

@Laulau: You're right, sorry.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@this_mad_woman: it's especially ridiculous to condemn south africa, which has much, much more progressive laws than the US does on the whole.
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mbprice
06/25/09

@NellMood: @AuburnPonytail: et. al. At the risk of adding another comment to this thread, I think this is the type of comment that we should let Hortense take care of and we should leave alone.
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counterclockwise's using her promoting-power for good
06/25/09

@chritter is a nocturnal feminist mancatfish: Probably not, Palin is still not quite sure who or what this "Africa" everyone is talking about actually is.
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stoprobbers
06/25/09

@Samanthrax is Sarcastic: Hahaha, who is that>??
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NellMood
06/25/09

@mbprice: I know- I realized that as soon as I hit submit. I couldn't help myself.
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hortense
06/25/09

@everyone: Ok, enough. It's over.
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PicosPardos
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Whatever. If he has raped, he should be in jail.
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Porcelina
06/25/09

@PicosPardos: Isn't rape not illegal there?
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@Porcelina: WHAT? No, rape is illegal in South Africa. Jesus. my question to pico is, for how long, for LIFE? and after that? what should happen to a rapist? if we continue to deny the possibility of conversion and redemption, we might as well just fucking exterminate criminals.
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save jinger
06/25/09

@Porcelina: She didn't press charges.
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Porcelina
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: Sorry. I am not that familiar with the laws there. I know there are many areas in the world that rape is very common place and legal.

Not saying it's right, but there are places where that is the way it is.

Hell, even if it's not legal, there are places that there are laws against it, but rarely is anything ever done.
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Penny
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: Agreed. Get out of my brain, seriously. Starting to weird me out.
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stoprobbers
06/25/09

@PicosPardos: I went to my pastor about this. His response was: "You are saved now, you were once in the mud, but now you know the truth and you are therefore OK."

He also asked me if I was ready to go to jail. He said: "What if the woman went to the authorities?"

My answer was: "If I go to jail, that would be justice for that woman."

Reading the article answers your question.
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@Porcelina: sorry for being patronizing. it's true that the definition of rape used in south africa used to be much narrower (didn't include male victims, didn't include sex acts other than penetration, etc.) but it has been reformed for a while. It's just that South Africa is known for having some of the most progressive laws on earth (implementation of those laws is another story), it's not like it is Saudi Arabia or something.
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Porcelina
06/25/09

@J.D.Regent: Oh that is ok. I understand that this is a very sensitive subject. Yes, so, that is what I have been getting at, is they may have these laws, but do they implement them? Or do they implement them only for a certain class of citizens?
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J.D.Regent
06/25/09

@Porcelina: there is a high crime rate and problems with enforcing all kinds of laws, because of a lot of complex factors including having to totally remake the country after apartheid ended. It has only been like 15 years of democracy and they have established a beautiful constitution and many many progressive laws in the meantime and implemented many. It's a very complex situation and no, rape laws are certainly not enforced enough, but when you look at the what, 1-3% conviction rate say in the UK, I don't think it is particularly unique. I wouldn't say that they are more implemented for anyone in particular, except perhaps urban dwellers over rural dwellers bc of resource issues.
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Bgirl_Hamster
06/25/09

@stoprobbers: I'm glad you posted the full quote. I read the story, but before I got to that part, I was doubtful about his sincerity. It's one thing to feel remorseful. It's another to apologize and know you are risking punishment to do so. Knowing that he was willing to risk imprisonment to set things as right as he possibly ever could and now works to prevent rape, makes me think that he has truly changed.
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Chamalla,barren crone
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
What's better than a reformed rapist? Someone who has never committed rape.

That being said, this seems to be a positive step in sex offender rehabilitation. I hope his activism makes a difference and that his victim is okay.
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morninggloria
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
I'm conflicted.

I want to punch him in the nuts and then give him a hug, and then punch him in the nuts again.
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Eleanor Ramilly
06/25/09

@morninggloria: Why don't you knee him in the balls while you're hugging?
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Penny
06/25/09

@morninggloria: I think I am with you on this.

I don't know....if he can prevent even one more woman from being raped, I suppose that's good? I just don't really know who he'll reach.

Basically, he raped and he's free, I'd rather he be doing this than, say, working as a bagger at Whole Foods.
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CurtCole
06/25/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: a back-handed hug, I think I like that.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
I think it's horrific there could ever be a culture that would exert peer pressure on men to assault and rape women.
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casi nadie
06/25/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: You've never been in a frat house, huh?
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casi nadie
06/25/09

@casi nadie (é o português de Curly Crown): clarification, I'm not accusing all frats of being hotbeds of sexual assault. But some individual ones are.
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kithkin
06/25/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: It's almost as if in some places, somewhere, there's a social structure that systematically denigrates women and elevates men. How perplexing.
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Flackette Goes Retro
06/25/09

@casi nadie (é o português de Curly Crown): Oh, I have had that experience as well (and as you say, it's not all frats, but some do have that reputation). I was just sort of being rhetorical and shaking my head at the entire fucked-up world.
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Ms. Nickels
06/25/09

In reply to South African Rapist Asks Forgiveness, Speaks Out Against Rape
Maybe he's genuine, but I still would rather punch him in the face than pat him on the back. Is that wrong?
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stoprobbers
06/25/09

@Ms. Nickels: Yes. Because not only did he not WANT to rape that girl -- he was forced to by other men -- but now that he HAS done it, he's devoted his life to working to make sure this kind of peer-pressure-fuelled gang raping can be eradicated from South African culture. And that is the cue to be forgiven, at least by girls who were not his victim.
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YourScreenplaySucks
06/25/09

@stoprobbers: Well, he wasn't forced. He was peer pressured and he succumbed to it. That's not quite the same thing.
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