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Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning

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champagne
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
It's so awful about Mumbai.

And why is no one talking about the threats against Paris from last week? Al Queda threatened widespread attacks against Paris, France.

The news of India is making me afraid to take a trip there in 2009 and it's something I've wanted to do my whole life. I hope this ends soon for the sake of the victims.
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rollergirl76
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
The Anne Pressley story is so incredibly heartbreaking, for what she had to endure in her final hours and her mother finding her savagely beaten and almost dead. Her poor family.

Does Arkansas have the death penalty?
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funnyface
11/28/08

@rollergirl76: Yeah, Arkansas has the death penalty. They're all about it. Even if that means using it on mentally handicapped/retarded criminals. (I'm from Arkansas. I am so sad for Ann.)
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gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
I know. There are reports from last night that two of dead are from a group of visitors here in Virginia. No one is safe or immune, it appears. The news was also saying that they were targeting Americans in this attack, which begs the assumption they are also trying to draw America in to this, as well. Frightening.
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vamusical
11/28/08

@gerbilsoutofexile: The two dead from Virginia are a father and his 13 year old daughter, which honestly kills me just to think about.
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Breamworthy
11/28/08

@gerbilsoutofexile: They're targeting Westerners (or people who appear Western), not just Americans. So, yes, Americans are among the dead, as well as Canadian and British.
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Norton
11/28/08

@vamusical: Jesus. I mean, it's not that murdering an innocent adult is okay, but murdering a child? Where do you get the idea that this is justified? How do you lose so much of your humanity?
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Breamworthy
11/28/08

@Norton Hears a Who: Not only that, but one of the sites they targeted and attacked was a hospital specifically for mothers and infants.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/28/08

@Breamworthy: They were specifically checking passports for British and Americans, though. Which has kind of freaked me out about travelling, now; I hold both British and New Zealand passports.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/28/08

@Norton Hears a Who: If you're going to launch an attack on this scale, I think you'd lose your perspective quite early on.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
I was driving my family crazy yesterday because I wanted to watch news coverage rather than enjoy football and a Hitchcock DVD with them. And then broke down at the obligatory "I'm thankful for..." sequence at dinner. I'm torn between fury and depression over this whole thing.
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nyc-caribbean-ragazza
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
I'm overseas and Mumbai is the number story here. It's really messed up what is going on. Horrible. Horrible.

I really hope the attackers were not trained in Pakistan (that is the latest rumor). The relationship between the two countries is not great.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: and they're both nuclear powers, whee!

where is that vodka.
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Ratinski
11/28/08

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: My concern is that even if the attackers were not trained in Pakistan it won't matter, and it'll trigger similar events in Pakistan by Indian-sympathizing fringe groups.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
11/28/08

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: Apparently some of the terrorists were heard speaking a Punjab dialect, too.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
I mentioned this in another thread, but for some reason the Mumbai attacks are really getting to me. So much so that I'm having irrational/unfair anger attacks about people focussing on other things. Can anyone suggest a therapist?
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Kira Smith
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: Drinking. Shopping. Gossiping about Spencer and Heidi. Watching television. Not thinking about the unpleasant things that happen in other, not-America places.
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: The Mumbai thing has me all freaked the fuck out. minisparks & I were supposed to visit Bubba Sparks in Jan., in India.

UM, NO - not taking minisparks. Not going now!

You don't need a therapist. You are an awesome human with a soul; a pilgrim one, no less.
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Kira Smith
11/28/08

@Birdie: In case you were curious, Canada is not a not-America place, because the people who live there are white and affluent.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@rosasparks: thanks lady. And yeah, no reason to be travelling into the eye of the storm.

I mean, I've been in a bad mood for weeks now for personal reasons too so I'm sure that's part of it, but for some reaon, this poor two year old kid who got carried out of Chabad House with a backward glance at his two my-age parents lying dead on the floor and the complete atmosphere of chaos being conveyed by the news is driving me to drink. at 11:30 a.m.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: Yeah, I just commented about that. I ended up really pissed at my dad yesterday because he told me to just follow the story online instead of watching coverage on TV. He had a football game to focus on.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@Birdie: yeah, I dunno. as a non-American who loves America generally, it's not that shocking to me when they seal themselves off. and I can understand the impulse in some ways.
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inabook
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: Its so fucking depressing that i can't focus on it if i don't want to be a weepy mess stuck to my couch. So I'm purposefully not reading the articles because god, there's nothing I can do from here to help, and me being utterly depressed and unproductive is not going to help anyone.
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: I've drank at 11:30am for no reasons. Seriously.

@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.her.new.ovumlord: I actually had the fun task of explaining what was going on yesterday to minisparks. I turned on MSNBC & was like, oh no. I told minisparks some bad people who shooting everyone in Mumbai. She repeated it & said, why? I said I wasn't really sure, but they want people to pay attention to them.

Here's some food for thought. I have decided that every time an adult wants to do something hideous, they should have to turn around & explain it to a child.

minisparks said, 'why do grown-ups always get so mad & be mean? If they wanted something, why don't they talk about it? That's what I have to do at school. And why do they hurt other people? That's sad.'

WORD, minisparks. W.O.R.D.
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: I can't speak for everyone else, but I never know what to do/say over the internet in regard to stuff like this. I'm trying to keep up with the news, but I don't think I understand the situation well enough to have an opinion what should happen next (other than, obviously, everyone who is still in danger being safe, and everyone responsible caught) and I don't feel like anything I say is going to help the people who were killed or are still in danger. I sometimes get irrationally angry when people change their facebook statuses to comment on events like this, because I'm always like *of course* you're horrified, you're a human being, it should go without saying-- but what are you actually doing about anyt of it? How is facebook helping? Which I know is not the healthiest response either, so if you find that therapist, let me know...
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brendastarlet is on it
11/28/08

@Birdie: especially all the Chinese, Africans, Thais and other people who have emigrated there over the past 20 years. You might think of Canada as being all hockey players and Mounties, but it's a lot more diverse than you'd expect.
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Ratinski
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: @Birdie: I don't really like the assumption that because we're not commenting on it, we aren't following it, and that we don't care. Personally, I AM. But I don't know what the fuck to say, because it's that monstrous.

I had a similar reaction after 9/11, and got accused of being an apathetic over-privileged little brat, so this tends to be a sore point with me.
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Kira Smith
11/28/08

@brendastarlet is on it: Apologies. I didn't intend disrespect to Canada (or America, for that matter), but seeing the coverage of Black Friday and 4 AM sales when innocent people are dying makes me wrathful and I forget my tact.

Not that atrocities don't happen every day without mention in the media, but this case really strikes a nerve.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@Ratinski: @samethingwedoeverynightpinky: Yeah, I guess all I'm saying is this: when there is a post about the murder of a small child or whatever there is often an avalanche of comments that amount to no more than "this makes me heartsick." whereas, in this instance, there's just silence. I mean, that is something of a difference. I also can't imagine if this happened in an American city there would be total silence.

do I think people are mean/uncaring? well, I did term my own anger attacks "irrational/unfair." I do get surprised, though, at the silence. I do wonder sometimes about how much people care... I want to think they do, but I don't know how much to assume when I am greeted sunnily on days like this with random commentary about what one ate for dinner last night, for example. I know that's my problem and not the speaker's. Still, it makes me wonder.
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brendastarlet is on it
11/28/08

@Birdie: I agree with you on that score. I am only going near one store today to buy milk, and otherwise I'm just holing up. I threw away all the circulars for Black Friday sales, because I can't even stand thinking about commerce right now, with Mumbai in chaos and with our economy as bad as it is.
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Meg
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: Perhaps it would help to realize that just because someone may not comment, or update their FB status to show that they are, in fact, following and caring about the story, that yes, they are following and caring about the story. Now, personally, I have also thought about other things -- some were even frivolous -- so I can't say I've given it my undivided attention, but I'm actually capable of worrying about many things at once. And I'm sure a lot of other people are, too.

Right now, I'm waiting to get some clearer details on the who and like you, am worried about how that will play out. But that's as far as I've gone with the speculation. The rest of my feelings have been, as I said, shock, sadness, empathy, and fear.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@Meg: Aww, Meggers, I'm not saying you don't care. I am saying that some people aren't even bringing it up, that's all.
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Ratinski
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: I often don't know what to say in those cases, either.

This is in no way a defense of my reaction, but I think that this sort of situation is so beyond most people's experience that they simply don't know what to say. It doesn't mean they don't care. It really doesn't. And as to people greeting you "...sunnily on days like this with random commentary about what one ate for dinner..." I think that's a combination of possibly not knowing what to say, and the weird, American brand of courtesy, where you don't bring up events like this for fear of making who you're talking to uncomfortable. Is this right? No. Is it really deeply ingrained? Hell, yes.

I don't know if any of this makes any sense, but they're my thoughts on it anyway.
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funnyface
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: Maybe part of the issue here (people not talking about this as much as say, the murder of a child) is that many of us have no idea what the hell is going on over there. Who is doing this? Is it coordinated? Is it Al Qaeda? It's far away, it's on a massive scale, and I know very little about India or what is going on there. I can't even wrap my mind around it or begin to articulate how I feel about it, beyond being worried for two friends who are there (they have checked in and assured me they are safe), and praying generally for Mumbai. Everyone has a different way of dealing with this kind of thing.

Personally, I think it shows what a warm, tender heart you have that you have been so affected.
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Meg
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: No, I know, but I'm just saying it's not safe to assume, you know? I mean, the majority of my fam is dead, we don't see the others, and my husband's fam is in another country, so Thanksgiving for me is pretty much the same as any other day, except that I cook a lot more, and my husband has the day off (one of four a year!). And even I managed to stay off of the computer for the majority of the day, yesterday. If people have fam over, or are visiting, they may not have the opportunity to hop on and comment. Or they didn't want to bring it up, until after the holiday. Or they don't know what to say. Or they don't know what's going on.

Basically, I'm saying don't feel so bad! I think more people are paying attention than you think. And I think there would have been more activity if it hadn't been a holiday. I still think there would have been less than on some others -- partly because of familiarity, partly because of lack of words -- but still more than now.
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LaFemme
11/28/08

@Meg: I agree completely with you. If you were looking too, a few newstations were DEFINITELY broadcasting about Mumbai; my family and I sat around and watched and whatever station we were watching showed nothing but Mumbai coverage all afternoon, to the point where they were just repeating clips and giving small updates as new info came in. I also think @funnyface: is correct in saying that a big part of why people aren't angry about this is because we really don't know what is going on, or who to direct anger towards; it is still developing. And unless you know a lot of about the region or global terrorism, or know your audience does, this kind of thing is sort of a non-starter at a big family dinner. "So how 'bout what's going on now guys! What do you think? Oh, we don't have much info.Terrible though, really terrible. Such a tragedy." Conversation over. Ditto for why the President hasn't issued a statement(as @azliza: wants). India/Pakistani politicvs is messy as is, I don't think it's a fantastic idea to come out and condemn anyone on a hunch or throw ourselves into the mire without having a great idea of what we would be working with...

My best friend lives in India so I am going to email her right now. I have had no internet for the past 36 hours.
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Norton
11/28/08

@rosasparks: Bubba's not in Mumbai, is he? Is he doing okay?
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Cerridwen
11/28/08

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: I know...it is so hard to comment on something like this. There was a horrific crime in Winnipeg this summer where a man was beheaded on a bus and I walked around in a daze for days afterwards with no coherent thoughts about the crime, because it was simply too awful to comprehend. I kind of feel like that about the India attacks. Later, when the dust is starting to settle, I might be able to parse this situation. But not right now. It's too much.
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Kate J.
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul:

For a therapist, if you have health insurance, call them for referrals. Or, if you are in school, go to the counseling center, as previously mentioned. If neither of these will work, call 211 if it is available in your area, 1-800-273-TALK or 800-SUICIDE. This will direct you to your local crisis line. Just ask them for sliding-scale or low-cost counseling referrals. It is totally OK to call when it is not an emergency. They will probably ask you if you are suicidal, it is no big deal, we usually have to check with everyone just in case. 211 is referral only, so if you don't want to deal with the crisis stuff I'd try that first, but it's not available everywhere yet.
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

@Kate J.: I was being slightly flip above, but thanks. :)
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@Norton Hears a Who: He was supposed to be leaving for India second week of Jan. All of that is thrown into doubt now.
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AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: So you want to read 8 million comments that amount to "I don't know what to say." To me that can be much more annoying than relative silence.

This isn't to be a flippant "go somewhere else" response (I've wondered about the same thoughts about a lack of response/action on certain posts), but I've learned that I'd much rather have a "quiet" discussion with people who are concerned/can offer something to a thread than be concerned with quantity.
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PrettyPrettyPrincess
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: It is sad and scary. I mentioned in the original post on Wed but my boyfriend was born in Mumbai and his brother lives there. The boyfriend lives here in the states but we are apart for the holiday. I also work with many people who were born in India and who work here. One of my company's offshore subcontract companies is in India and we work closely with them. I am not sure if I would be feeling this less, but I know that as much as we are all saddened and infuriated by these attacks, it is definitely hitting close to home. It's horrible, and my boyfriend has been almost paranoid about terrorism and now I understand it better than I did. Some of my friends grew up in places where their buses were bombed as kids in India (my former boss has an injury from a terrorist attack which has never healed correctly).

One thing I have learned - some people cannot comprehend mass tragedy. For some it really comes more naturally to relate to an individual tragedy than to internalize something this big. It happens with plane crashes vs a kidnapped child - they are both horrible, but many people will relate emotionally more strongly with the kidnapping. Other people will experience this feeling of bearing the world's pain in a great tragedy - there is actually a German word (I wish I could remember it!!!) for feeling the sadness of the world, sometimes triggered by a large tragic event. It's interesting how our minds work.

You haz that right now, I think, and you need a big giant world-sized hug. I spent tonight watching 2 puppies frolic in Denver's first real snowfall of the season and thought, for all the ugliness out there, there is still so much beauty and joy.
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HeinzDoofenshmirtz
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
Why do all psychos have three names? Case in point: Curtis Lavelle Vance.
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Cortina
11/28/08

@nigeriangirl: Actually, in "The Gift of Fear" the author says that it's part of the fetishization of violence, and in particular psychotic violence, to call famous killers by all three names. He says, that before they became famous, they were just Lee Oswald or John Gacy or Curtis Vance, and part of the allure to the mentally unbalanced sort of person who contemplates becoming infamous in that manner is the grandeur of being referred to by all three names.

I don't know if I buy it, but it's an incredibly interesting and persuasive argument.
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RisaPlata
11/28/08

@Cortina can see Russian from her house: Can't you just hear their mothers yelling at them? "Lee Harvey Oswald, where do you think you're going with that gun? You're going to shoot your eye out!"
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Cam/ron
11/28/08

@nigeriangirl: It's very common for journalists to refer to killers by their full name since they don't want the public to confuse them with other people who share their first and last names. For instances, there are many John Gacys and Lee Oswalds out there.
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Breamworthy
11/28/08

@Cortina can see Russian from her house: I've also read that the police deliberately release all three names in order to prevent mistaken identity. So if they describe the suspect as "Curtis Vance" there's likely to be a lot more people out there named Curtis Vance who may suffer because their name is now associated with a crime. But there are probably a lot fewer people named Curtis Lavelle Vance.
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Kira Smith
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
The carnage in Mumbai doesn't merit its own item? Cold.
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suck_it_monkeys
11/28/08

@Birdie: That really bothered me too. Blah. :(
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brendastarlet is on it
11/28/08

@suck_it_monkeys: agree. This is a major world news story. If terrorists took over the Carlyle and the Mark and started shooting up Madison Avenue, you'd bet it would get a separate item.
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Anna
11/28/08

@Birdie: @suck_it_monkeys: The editors had the day off yesterday. And they have the day off TODAY, except a few of them were willing and/or able to come online to do a few quick posts before they went to SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILIES.
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will_this_dissertation_ever_end?!
11/28/08

@Anna: Um, but Anna Wintour gets her own item?! That's right! She's much more relevant than murders and hostages in some far-away place like, I don't know, India.
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robot ninja spy
11/28/08

@will_this_dissertation_ever_end?!: But when they finally put up a post on this, I think it'll be much lenghthier and full of details and links. If a comparable post on Mumbai was thrown up, I think people would still be bothered that the topic wasn't done justice, and that would be a fair criticism, you know?

:(
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Kali Mama
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
That is *Dr.* Jill Biden.

Oh yeah!
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rosasparks
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
The story about Jill makes me love her more. Also makes me love Joe more, too.

ps I had no idea she's in her 50?! She's gorgeous.
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SusieDerkins
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
Proof that Andrew Cuomo is a jerk: his girlfriend is Sandra "Semi-Homemade" Lee.
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@SusieDerkins: Meaning, related to Sara Lee? Are these people screwed up?

I mean, I know Cuomo is an ass...
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nyc-caribbean-ragazza
11/28/08

@SusieDerkins:

NO!!!!! (sorry for the yelling)

He went from a Kennedy to her? She is the worst thing on the Food Network.
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@nyc-caribbean-ragazza: I don't watch anything on the Food Network besides the Barefoot Contessa. minisparks watched Giada b/c "she's pretty & makes noodles." (and I quote)

Uh oh, I'm going to have to Google.
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brendastarlet is on it
11/28/08

@rosasparks: I had a chat with a friend in Albany about the possibility that Andrew might get the Senate seat. He said, "everybody agrees he's capable but nobody can stand him."
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rosasparks
11/28/08

@brendastarlet is on it: Oh dear GOD. That would just be awful. ps his brother on ABC News is also a gigantic fuckwad. Christopher Cuomo makes me want to scream.
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brendastarlet is on it
11/28/08

@rosasparks: and yet, Maria seems to have turned out okay. Maybe the female genes in that family were more robust.
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pennycandy
11/28/08

@SusieDerkins: The only redeeming thing about that show is that she makes a cocktail on every episode.
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hussein persepolis hussein
11/28/08

@rosasparks: Honestly, I will steal your child someday.
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Ipomoea
11/28/08

@pennycandy: Perhaps the cocktail is needed for dealing with the boyfriend?

When we had TV, it was usually turned to Food Network. I love, love LOVE Giada and Iron Chef. Sandra Lee was iffy-- if I was in the right mood, watching her rave about how easy it is to make whatever from a pack of french onion soup mix and chicken nuggets was entertaining.

From what I understand, her mother was a non-functioning alcoholic and she taught herself to cook by age 9 because she was the eldest and had to take care of her younger siblings on a very, very limited food budget. Ooh! I just wiki'd her and she's from Sumner, Washington. Which explains a lot.
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dcdulce
11/28/08

@SusieDerkins: I abhor Sandra "table scapes" Lee..that is all..
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inabook
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
I had no clue that Jill Biden taught... and that she chooses to teach at a community college, and that her thesis shows she really believes in it... well, that's pretty awesome to me. she sounds like a pretty cool lady!
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PilgrimSoul
11/28/08

In reply to Mumbai Still Burning, World Still Turning
Sigh.
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hellosunshine
11/28/08

@PilgrimSoul: *nods*
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