Great-Granny had 20 children. Only 15 lived into adulthood. One set of twins, one set of triplets. She also lived into her late seventies. Though, her family with fewer children, if they didn't smoke, lived into their 90's.
@Remedios Varo can't see no huevos.: They seem to be ok with hospital birth, but I know some Quiverfulls are not. (According to the more radical ones, I'm a child of the devil for having been delivered into the world via C-section - never mind that I was breach and would likely have been stillborn otherwise!)
I know that we're supposed to say this is Michelle Duggar's personal choice, blah blah blah, but when I think you analyze the reasons behind her choice - that the Quiverfull mentality is to overrun us "godless secular liberals" by having more babies, so as to impose their ultra-extreme, Handmaid's-Tale-esque brand of evangelical Christianity on the rest us, I think it becomes more than just her issue. I think it becomes our issue, too.
We're also being ignorant if we assume that she's going on with this happily, that she isn't under enormous pressure from the doctrine of her church and her husband to do this. We have no way of knowing if it's really her choice, now, do we? She may seem chirpy and happy on her TV show and her blog, but there's also a good likelihood she's hiding the problems so as not to give Quiverfull bad PR.
I just think it's rather short-sighted to dismiss this as just a typical case of a woman wanting lotsa babies. There's a big difference between the motivation behind the Duggars' big brood and, say, Octomom or Kate Plus 8. I think we have a reason to take the Duggars a bit more seriously than the rest of the famous big families.
Next up: How many bowel movements can one person produce in a day? Says Septictank-full Movement Member Rusty Ringdorgfer, "I just want to take as many shits as God sees fit to give me, so I eat all of the eggs and prunes I can. To encourage the Lord's work, you know? When God doesn't want me to blast dookies anymore, that's fine. But until then, I'm gonna poop as many times as my body can handle, and then some. Every bowel movement is sacred."
Even though they clearly love having children, their choice to stop planning Michelle's pregnancies was after a miscarriage, which they were told was the result of using a birth control pill. They say that to them, use of the pill then became almost the equivalent of abortion, and so decided to stop using any contraception at all, ever. This breaks my heart.
@Habibiti: I'm not sure I buy that they're "not planning" Michelle's pregnancies, and would in fact bet that they are using NFP to time sex in order to GET pregnant. Even in the no BC days, before it even existed, 19 children would have been a rare and high number.
@funnyface: Wouldn't that go against the Quiverfull movement's ideology though? They believe that humans shouldn't chose when to have children, that they should allow God to choose for them.
@funnyface: That's very possible. I'm just going with what they wrote on their website to explain their philosophy of having children. It just struck me as sad that they seemed so guilty for "causing the death" of their second child, that they didn't feel like they could choose any longer NOT to have children. It put their view on child-rearing in a different light, though they also say it makes them appreciate their children more.
I think some of the points here in regards to "in modern times" don't quite apply to the Duggars. From what I've read, the older kids take care of the younger ones, she started pretty young, and in terms of attention per child, don't the kids have to sign up for one-on-one time? She seems to be taking the old-school approach in terms of parenting methods.
Also, I'm VERY wary of judging people's choices based on what their bodies are able to do. Judging them because they're whackadoo Christians, I'm totally down with that.
(note: Not saying that all Christians are whackadoos. Most aren't. The quiverfull folks? Whackadoo city.)
In response to the idea that only religious famlies have that many kids... My dad had 11 brothers and sisters, and then they took in 5 orphaned neices and nephews, they were athiests, I also have a good friend who is an athiest who has 7 kids and is still young and working on having more. I had a proffesor in college who was agnostic and had 7 kids. I have two and want to have 4 more, I was raised as an athiest/freethinker, It's not a religious thing some people are just comfortable having a large family. In fact my husband is Catholic and he just recently started thinking that two is enough!
@TemplaFlop: I said I was sure there were exceptions. You happen to know many. I happen to know many religious people with lots of kids. I didn't say my anecdotal experience was data.
To say it "isn't a religious thing" may be true with respect to the people you know, but my guess is that if you studied families with many children you would find a higher-than-average percentage of conservative religious people. Some, like the LDS Church and the Quiverfull movement, counsel you to have as many children as you can handle. Some, like the Catholic Church, frown on - that's putting it lightly w/r/t official doctrine - birth control.
@Maritsa: Yeah, I thought that was kind of a give-in. Of course there are exceptions, but generally speaking most people who have very large families do so in part because their religion believes that you should not use birth control.
I don't understand the "it's God's will" theory. Yes, each child is a blessing. But would they feel the same way if God chose to take a child from them? Would they accept that as God's will too?
@twinkette: It makes NO sense. Farmers don't just throw their seed out willy nilly, trusting that God's will will take care of things. You don't just refuse to buy food because God's Will will provide. The idea that God wants to take away your free will and your mind is insane. And yet so many Christians I know (and I am myself a Christian) act like God wants them to give up all control of their body and life. My perspective is, if God really is a loving parent, what would a loving parent do if you called him/her up and said, "so, what job should I do for the rest of my life? just tell me!" The parent would say, "what do you enjoy? what are you good at? let's talk about this." But no good parent wants to have to dictate to their child. That takes all spiritual maturity out of the question. God wants us to be the kind of people who can make wise choices on our own, not abdicate all responsibility for our choices.
My OBGYN told me that having a baby is the stupidest thing a woman could do to her body.
That being said, I don't care what this lady does with her uterus but mine is closed for business.
@lovecake: Erm, really? Having a baby is stupider than doing tons of heroin, or driving drunk, or chopping off one's own limbs, or swallowing lit cherry bombs, or eating rat poison, or laying still for so long that your muscles completely atrophy, or starving yourself, or throwing yourself off a high building?
I've got more, but you get the point. I feel that perhaps you may have misunderstood or are misrepresenting what your OBGYN actually said. Hyperbole is fun and all, but that would be a truly bizarre statement for any doctor to utter under any circumstances. Are you sure she didn't say that it was the stupidest thing YOU could do, personally, for specific reasons?
@slowpoke.r: I can assure you that when it was said organically in our conversation it made the utmost sense. I am realizing now that without background it may not make sense here, but it was far from bizarre.
@lovecake: Well, all the other stuff you said she said is perfectly reasonable so I guess one had to be there.
You have to admit that saying "having a baby is the stupidest thing a woman can do to her body" is pretty shocking when presented totally without context. And really, I still can't imagine an appropriate context for it. It's just such a weird statement, akin to your doctor saying "your liver is the dumbest organ" or "eyeballs are weirdos." There's a hint of truth, maybe, but overall it just doesn't seem to make any sense, you know?
Next time, please tape record your session so that you can share it with the internet and I can understand, okay? :)
(le sigh) My ovaries have been buzzing a lot lately and sometimes my brain goes all fuzzy at the thought of dozens of little mini-SO's running around. I have trouble shaking myself out of it but meditating on things like incontinence, exhaustion, haemorroids and money debt really helps.
@khinky: if it helps, my husband's boss' wife pooped on the table during labor in front of half-a-dozen people. This ranks way up there on the THINGS I AM AFRAID OF scale.
@Kali Mama: I've had my mirena for a couple of years now, and while it hurt like a bitch after the gynaecoloist put it in, I love it - don't believe the "It'll only hurt a little bit, mild cramps" that they tell you. I nearly passed out at the bus stop after. It's pretty much the only form of birth control other than condoms that doesn't give me migraines from hormone fluctuations.
@Dauphine: I think this really depends on the person-- I had been told to take the day off after getting mine inserted, but once the painful insertion was over, I was almost immediately fine and pain-free. However, I have some friends who ended up taking a week off of work to deal with the pain.
@It does depend on the person. I had extremely heavy periods, spotting between periods, and horrific, incapacitating pains in my uterus with Mirena. I also had lots of acne, very oily skin and hair, and severe hair loss(which is no longer in the patient information pamplet, but is in the one for doctors) Google "Mirena hair loss" if you're curious. My doctor told me to just keep taking the maximum daily dose of Tylenol for the pain, but I never knew when it was going to strike, and it doesn't last long enough for the middle of the night pains that were waking me up. One day I came in with the groceries and curled up on the kitchen floor, clutching my knees, with the ice cream melting and the door open. The next day I had it taken out and all the side effects have gone away. My hair has stopped coming out in handfuls, but it may be awhile before it grows back fully.
I don't know if you'll go through what I did, but the thing is, you never know til you get it. It's more invasive than any other hormonal method and you have to pay for it all up front, so if you can't stand it, it'll cost you doubly. I think it's irresponsible to just say "Oh I like mine, you'll be awesome"
So it just comes down to: No, most people can't handle it, but if you can and want to...do it?
I still have major concerns about women who feel they cannot use birth control for religious reasons and keep having kids. I know a woman who is in her early forties and was advised not to have another child. She is anti-BC and had one anyway. Her uterus ended up exploding....pretty damn frightening. Luckily she was able to recover.
This is an interesting and intelligent way to talk about childbirth and the female body, which is a nice switch. I am always fascinated by the disparaging, vaginacentric comments tossed about per Michelle Duggar. I have NO love for the Duggars. Unlike many people, I don't even really have respect for them or their choices (tolerance, yes-- respect no). But even I'm offended by the way people just go STRAIGHT for Michelle's vagine, reducing her to a body part. Not cool.
@labeled: Thanks. What I find particularly grotesque about these statements is, often, it will trail some comment about "Women's value isn't JUST in having babies" or "Her religion tells her all she can be is a vessel of fetuses." Well, when "you" make statements about how cavernous her vagina is, "you're" doing the same...
@LaComtesse: Thanks. As much as I find it objectionable that she's pretty much made herself into a walking womb, that's her choice, and it's gross and immature and disrespectful to focus on her body and what it might look/feel like.
agreed. i don't even want to have any kids~~ tied my tubes years ago. but this woman can do whatever she wants with her body. why is that any of my business? it's almost like she's being gently nudged into the Freak category of a traveling circus.
@LaComtesse: I am actually in awe of the ORGANIZATION of that family; it is unbelievable. I'd imagine in some ways they make it look far easier than it is...my judgment is actually more for TLC.
@Sadie: I'm not speaking for the venerable Comtesse, but I think she and I share your judgment - it's the "clown car uterus" and "echo chamber" comments - not somuch your post - that are Not Cool.
@Sadie: Yeah, there's a lot of cutesy editing on TLC that leads me to agree with you per it being made to look easier than it is. I don't know if I'm in awe of the organization, though it is impressive if not moral (I find their "buddy system" reprehensible). Though this be madness, yet there is method in it.
From an evolutionary standpoint, it's a-ok to have that many kids. From a psychological standpoint, probably not so much.
Some theories actually argue that modern women are having too many menstrual cycles and the frequency of menstruation is causing more health issues than would have been seen in the past (and by past, I'm talking evolutionary past, not the recent past). I think this is the main argument for those BCP's that allow you to have 4 periods a year without being unhealthy. So maybe that many pregnancies can be beneficial in that sense.
@Kali Mama: True. Which actually makes me wonder...is Mama Duggar nursing the babies at all? She's having them in such rapid succession I'd be shocked if she was for any length of time.
@Kali Mama: Nursing is not a surefire way to ward off Aunt Flo, FYI. Sometimes she returns to Nursingville. And you could still ovulate and get pregnant before she rears her crimson head. Just a public service message to the Jezzies...
@TheLittlestChicken: Oh absolutely, I was just referring to the compounding reasons pre-industrialised women had less periods on average. That, and malnurishment obvs.
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I'm really quite impressed that Mrs. Duggar has only had 3 C-sections.
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We're also being ignorant if we assume that she's going on with this happily, that she isn't under enormous pressure from the doctrine of her church and her husband to do this. We have no way of knowing if it's really her choice, now, do we? She may seem chirpy and happy on her TV show and her blog, but there's also a good likelihood she's hiding the problems so as not to give Quiverfull bad PR.
I just think it's rather short-sighted to dismiss this as just a typical case of a woman wanting lotsa babies. There's a big difference between the motivation behind the Duggars' big brood and, say, Octomom or Kate Plus 8. I think we have a reason to take the Duggars a bit more seriously than the rest of the famous big families.
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Also, I'm VERY wary of judging people's choices based on what their bodies are able to do. Judging them because they're whackadoo Christians, I'm totally down with that.
(note: Not saying that all Christians are whackadoos. Most aren't. The quiverfull folks? Whackadoo city.)
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And I'm not sure why people are so convinced that a uterus can't grow and shrink but don't have any problems with the notion that the stomach does.
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To say it "isn't a religious thing" may be true with respect to the people you know, but my guess is that if you studied families with many children you would find a higher-than-average percentage of conservative religious people. Some, like the LDS Church and the Quiverfull movement, counsel you to have as many children as you can handle. Some, like the Catholic Church, frown on - that's putting it lightly w/r/t official doctrine - birth control.
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That being said, I don't care what this lady does with her uterus but mine is closed for business.
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I've got more, but you get the point. I feel that perhaps you may have misunderstood or are misrepresenting what your OBGYN actually said. Hyperbole is fun and all, but that would be a truly bizarre statement for any doctor to utter under any circumstances. Are you sure she didn't say that it was the stupidest thing YOU could do, personally, for specific reasons?
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You have to admit that saying "having a baby is the stupidest thing a woman can do to her body" is pretty shocking when presented totally without context. And really, I still can't imagine an appropriate context for it. It's just such a weird statement, akin to your doctor saying "your liver is the dumbest organ" or "eyeballs are weirdos." There's a hint of truth, maybe, but overall it just doesn't seem to make any sense, you know?
Next time, please tape record your session so that you can share it with the internet and I can understand, okay? :)
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I don't know if you'll go through what I did, but the thing is, you never know til you get it. It's more invasive than any other hormonal method and you have to pay for it all up front, so if you can't stand it, it'll cost you doubly. I think it's irresponsible to just say "Oh I like mine, you'll be awesome"
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I still have major concerns about women who feel they cannot use birth control for religious reasons and keep having kids. I know a woman who is in her early forties and was advised not to have another child. She is anti-BC and had one anyway. Her uterus ended up exploding....pretty damn frightening. Luckily she was able to recover.
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agreed. i don't even want to have any kids~~ tied my tubes years ago. but this woman can do whatever she wants with her body. why is that any of my business? it's almost like she's being gently nudged into the Freak category of a traveling circus.
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@labeled: *insert sage nod of agreement*
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*daughters
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I'm not giving her props for the division of labor - it is WAY gender-specific. But they're a finely-tuned machine in that house.
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Some theories actually argue that modern women are having too many menstrual cycles and the frequency of menstruation is causing more health issues than would have been seen in the past (and by past, I'm talking evolutionary past, not the recent past). I think this is the main argument for those BCP's that allow you to have 4 periods a year without being unhealthy. So maybe that many pregnancies can be beneficial in that sense.
Just a thought :)
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