If anyone thinks what the mob and the University did to this girl can be explained by Brazilian culture, the answer is probably complicated. erox, below, gave a good explanation of the the context of hyper-sexualization of women and girls there.
Lets also remember that it was not long ago, in the U.S., that a teen girl was gang raped while a large crowd watched and jeered and no one at the scene called the police, although they did take pictures for their own wank fodder. The school's response was all about better lighting and rape prevention tips for women.
As much as this event is reflective of entrenched misogyny and double standards in Brazil, The Richmond gang rape is reflective of ours. I'm can't rest easy knowing it wouldn't happen here. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Hana Maru: I actually think the response of the Brazilian society as a whole is being (positively) interesting:
The Ministry of Education, Procon (Consumer's Prosecution - [pt.wikipedia.org]), Public Ministry (Federal prosecution- [en.wikipedia.org])) and the Sao Bernardo DDM (Special Victims Police) all opened separated investigations about the case.
At least three Representatives and one Senator spoke against the University.
UNE (Brazilian Student Union), the feminist movement and the labor's unions protested the school today.
OAB (Brazilian law bar association) is also was against what happened.
Both left and right wing media are supporting the girl.
It is a horrifying case, but at least the outlook for discussions of gender in Brazil seems positive, even though there are other (valid or not so pure) reasons those entities are being so outspoken. Or maybe I'm being a little too patriotically optimistic. #shortskirtexpulsion
@marinav: I was definitely happy to see all the public support for Geisy, but the focus and discourse of the media coverage is maddening! I just finished watching a talk show where they had students from the school talking about the incident. When female students stood to make comments, the host (also female) would say things like, "Wow, you are pretty, congratulations," or "great body!" She had another female student stand and lifted her skirt up until it was the same length as Geisy's on the day in question, as indicated by a male student on the discussion panel. The female student was visibly uncomfortable while the host lifted her skirt.
The cognitive dissonance was making my head explode - I heard incredibly progressive (and not so progressive) things coming out of people's mouths about the rights of women to wear whatever they want, and the macho culture, etc - all while openly objectifying all the "pretty girls" who spoke out, and Geisy herself. There was a five minute discussion about whether it would have been ok for Geisy to wear the dress if she were not pretty.....PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!!
The best part was when the school's general counsel called in to talk about why they expelled her - apparently Geisy responded to male heckling by lifting her skirt a bit. He was really flustered when people pointed out that perhaps the hecklers were also in the wrong.
Honestly. I love many things about Brazil, and was pleasantly surprised to see so much public support. However, unless people start talking seriously about the harmful side of the "culture of beauty" (i.e. ridiculous objectification and sexualization of women) and how it plays into incidents like these, it's going to be a real struggle to effect lasting change. #shortskirtexpulsion
@erox: You are right, I'm just so happy that support for her is coming from unusual places that I might have overlooked some levels of that discourse. But, still, I think that the amount of progressive talk, especially coming from where it is coming (Veja, Reinaldo Azevedo, Evangelical Churches, etc.), is a giant step in the right direction, and even when it is not sooo progressive like that Geraldo Brasil thing (I saw on youtube - is that the show you were talking about?), it still a better reaction than what you would receive from that kind of TV.
It takes time for people to truly absorb feminist ideas, and if it keeps coming from the usual places it becomes background noise, at least with new actors involved even with less than desirable discourse the impact on the general population will be higher. #shortskirtexpulsion
And this bit especially bothered me
"when she left to go to the bathroom, men followed, physically fighting with her and trying to take cell phone pictures between her legs."
So there was both assault and sexual assault. How is shoving a camera in someone's crotch ok? And really, hasn't anyone ever worn a short dress in Brazil before? #shortskirtexpulsion
Jesus. Hearing them all chant "puta" as they walk by just made me think of all the indignities women face just walking to work everyday, but all heaped upon this poor woman at once. And how ironic it is that when men harass you with "puta," what they really mean is, "I'm lusting after you, but you don't like it, so you're a whore." No. No, assholes. YOU are the fucking whores.
@Old Jean Gallagher: I always find it mind bending when men call women whores in response to those women not wanting to have sex with them. Um, dude, maybe consult a dictionary? Not that it would be OK to be rude to someone who was a prostitute, but a lot of men seem a little confused on the basic concept here. #shortskirtexpulsion
I know people always say this about Lindsay Lohan and whatnot, but this is the girl I want to wrap in a snuggie, wrap my arm around, sit on the couch watching bad TV with, and feed cupcakes and cheese puffs.
Can you imagine how psychologically damaging this incident was? In my mind, they might as well have raped her, for how utterly violated and disgusted she must feel. Watching this video was like seeing a nightmare come to life; I can't even find the words to express how disturbing this incident was, and on how many levels (and yet, disturbing still isn't even a strong enough descriptor).
Mob of Rapists Spark Mass Hysteria at Brazilian University.
Fixed that headline for you. There's not a skirt short enough in this world to make a man disinclined to rape shout at a woman that he wants to rape her. #shortskirtexpulsion
I have that dress, or something very similar. Happy to say it never got me attacked. What a bunch of fucking animals. So nice to see how many women were involved, too. #shortskirtexpulsion
Umm...but she's in a dress...and it's Brazil...because it was short?!?...insanity...wtf...christians...has Sarah Palin spoken there....maybe it isn't real...what of the g-strings...I don't understand...
Too much stupidity to wade through on a Monday...I'm climbing back into bed and hope when I come back there's a happier story posted. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Gnatalby: Christians are always at the ready to distance themselves from the actions of their fellows. It's like there's a bat signal or something. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Gnatalby: Just like you wouldn't blame Islam or all Muslims for 9/11, I don't appreciate blaming all Christians for what the crazies do. We're definitely not all like that and attacking someone's religion is not cool. What would Jesus do? Not this. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Hana Maru: Well, what would you expect me to do? I have three options. I could
1. Conform to the stereotype and become homophobic, xenophobic, etc.
2. Renounce my religion that just might mean a great deal to me.
3. Assert that I am not crazy and that I recognize there are assholes out there, but I am not one of them.
Is it too much to hope that people would at least try to see me as a complex human being? I am not a stereotype. #shortskirtexpulsion
@madeofawesome: Except that Islam is not the dominant religion in the US or in Brazil. Christians have PLENTY of opportunities make it clear what they do and don't believe.
But nothing is gained by denying people the label the call themselves. These people say they're Christian, they're Christian, full stop. Are you Jesus? Then don't tell him who his followers are.
And have a little sensitivity to the fact that you're derailing a thread about RAPE and making it about one of the most powerful groups of people in the world. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Gnatalby: I don't think you're the one who should be talking about sensitivity. I didn't start with the personal attacks. You did. I don't care what issues you may have with religion. It is not my fault, and moreover, it is not the point. You derailed. I replied. Do not blame me when you've taken a large part in this thread. #shortskirtexpulsion
@madeofawesome: Haha. When did I make a "personal" attack?
I don't have any issues with Christianity, I have issues with "what about the menz" style arguments. I promise you, Christians aren't the ones who are hurt by what happened in Brazil.
The real victim is the woman who was mobbed by a gang of violent people threatening to rape her.
@madeofawesome: Those are not your only choices. The stereotype you are conforming to is that of the Christian who cares about Christianity looking good when there's a tragedy and acts like Christians are being persecuted when their actions are criticized.
Seriously, check Gnaltby's link if you still think you had a reasonable response. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Hana Maru: You missed the point entirely. It's not about Christianity looking good. I could care less. But when you blame religion for something like this (which had nothing to do with religion), you blame its adherents. Me. If the same thing had been said about Islam or Judaism, I'd have still been pissed. No one is to blame but the people in the mob, and I doubt they had Jesus/Allah/Jehovah on their minds when they were chasing down that poor girl.
@madeofawesome: "It's not about Christianity looking good. I could care less."
"I don't appreciate blaming all Christians for what the crazies do. We're definitely not all like that and attacking someone's religion is not cool. What would Jesus do? Not this. "
Both of these statements cannot be true. When you conform exactly to the type of Christian that comes on here to absolve and dissociate themselves in the face of a heinous crime, what can you expect people to think of you? I find it tiresome to debate a dishonest person, so I've had enough of this. #shortskirtexpulsion
I'm from Sao Paulo and spent summers in Rio for most of my childhood. When going topless at the beach became the fashion, women were protected by police lest they were stoned (unrelated to weed) or burned by hot sand thrown onto their backs. Never mind that the bikini tops at that time barely covered nipples anyway.
I see parallels with this story. There are so many layers of wrong here that teasing them apart will take my brain some time.
Brazilian culture isn't cohesive and there's a lot of regional variation. A couple of things apply, however: Catholicism was the founding religion and all festivities remotely related to nature originate from native or African religions. Anything related to sexuality is therefore fraught with two rather different understandings of the natural world and our own bodies, resulting in truly bizarre, context-specific rules for showing off a woman's sexuality -- such as "Carnaval ok, my wife not ok, beach ok, 1 block off beach not ok" etc etc.
Controlling, illogical, maddening. No wonder I moved to another country. :( #shortskirtexpulsion
@meristem: That's interesting. Thanks for the explanation. My head was reeling that this riot could happen in the country that gave the world the Brazilian bikini wax and the g-string bathing suit bottom. #shortskirtexpulsion
@whynotshesaid: Yeah, but this is also the country whose religious leaders excommunicated a 9-year-old for having an abortion after being raped, although the rapist wasn't kicked out of the church. Dogma is an awful thing when it replaces compassion. #shortskirtexpulsion
Thank god for that professor. Good job, whoever you are. You probably saved that girl from further physical assault and actual rape.
That poor girl. I can't even imagine how horrifying that would be. It would be like a real-life zombie movie, except instead of wanting to eat you, they just want to sexually assault you.
I would never want to leave the house again. Or go to class. Or talk to people. Holy hell, I cannot process this. #shortskirtexpulsion
So the students that treatened her with rape and tried to take upskirt pictures without her consent are being told that they were in the right... and she's expelled. This doesn't work in my brain! #shortskirtexpulsion
I go to university in Brazil, and I am pretty certain the issue was not just the dress. While most students do dress more conservatively, there are always women with skin-tight, revealing clothing in classes and on the street. Heavy make-up is absolutely the norm. Granted, most revealing outfits do include skin-tight pants rather than skirts, but short dresses are not uncommon, even in doctorate programs.
The real issue is the hyper-sexualization of females in this country; I say "females" and not "women" because they sell those famous thong bikinis and heels in sizes for 3-5 year old girls. Women are expected to constantly be made up, in heels, and available for ogling and lewd suggestions from men. Making platonic male friends has been incredibly difficult; so many men seemed confounded by the concept of a non-sexualized relationship with a woman.
The most disturbing part about this is that a large part of the pressure to conform to this ideal comes not from men, but from other women. Those women who are not hyper-feminine are shunned, yet the ladies get insanely competitive and hateful when a girl is *too* pretty. I've seen a lot of the interviews and news reports on this in Portuguese, and the message is basically like, this girl was blond and blue-eyed, so she was too pretty for school, and she acted inappropriately by being overtly sexual. Both sexes were punishing her for this; she was taunted by both men AND women.
I obviously think the school is out of line, as were the students who harassed her, and think women should be able to wear what they want without being attacked. However, I also think women should take responsibility in terms of not feeding into this insanely sexualized culture. Brazilian women need to STOP pressuring other women to conform to these ridiculous standards, stop sexualizing their daughters at a young age, stop accepting a double standard in terms of their son's aggressive behavior toward women, and stop defining themselves by their sexuality. Obviously what happened here is NOT this woman's fault - all I am saying is that women here do a lot of work to perpetuate these sexist attitudes here and it makes me really sad and angry. I expect more from both the men and women of Brazil. #shortskirtexpulsion
@erox: Can you tell us more about the public reaction to the University's expelling her? Is there *any* outrage? Or is there a mixture of reactions, or is it uniformly supportive? #shortskirtexpulsion
@formergr: There is some outrage over how the university handled it, and people seem kind of shocked by how far it went, but even Geisy Arruda herself says that this type of commentary is normal and that she is used to it. She talks about how there were a lot of women in the mob, and how the men got even more out of control when the women started making comments. There are also some class undertones to this - she says in interviews that the school would not have treated her like that if she were rich, and every story on it talks about her lower-middle class family background. Some of the commentary on that front is that she is a little "trashy" for dressing like that, but I have not heard anyone say they think she deserves what happened.
She is planning on going back to school, and from what I gather from her interviews, she does not plan on changing how she dresses.
She is wearing "the dress" in a lot of her TV appearances. What is kind of gross about the whole thing is how focused the media is on her looks - it just plays into this whole female competition thing without touching on the real issues, and frankly further objectifies her. Also, by focusing so much on her looks, it feels like they are excusing the men for going absolutely wild. Ugh. #shortskirtexpulsion
This happened when I was there; I don't speak Portuguese so I was very confused, I guess I did not want to believe that she was being harassed in school. She was in a show and I think she was wearing the same outfit. She spoke directly to the people that did that to her and told them that she was not going to back away and she will press charges. She held it together very well, I would just cry. The host kept showing the video over and over again, also in slow motion.
I speak Spanish, so I kind of understood some stuff. #shortskirtexpulsion
@Sodypop: I'm confused. You were at the school when the incident shown in the video happened? Or you were there another time the same girl was harassed at the school? #shortskirtexpulsion
@Sodypop: Oh, wow. Well I'm relieved you weren't trapped in some nightmare mob scene! What were Brazilians saying (from what you understood) about the whole thing? #shortskirtexpulsion
@ronniedobbs: Well, I am Brazilian and am very shocked. From most of the news and comments I read about the subject everyone seems also appalled (there is going to be a protest today in front of Uniban).
The Brazilian minister of education is pissed and opening an investigation, most of the Brazilian side of the internet is also horrified and so is the national student union (UNE), even the most conservative media seem to be by her side.
11/09/09
Lets also remember that it was not long ago, in the U.S., that a teen girl was gang raped while a large crowd watched and jeered and no one at the scene called the police, although they did take pictures for their own wank fodder. The school's response was all about better lighting and rape prevention tips for women.
As much as this event is reflective of entrenched misogyny and double standards in Brazil, The Richmond gang rape is reflective of ours. I'm can't rest easy knowing it wouldn't happen here. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
The Ministry of Education, Procon (Consumer's Prosecution - [pt.wikipedia.org]), Public Ministry (Federal prosecution- [en.wikipedia.org])) and the Sao Bernardo DDM (Special Victims Police) all opened separated investigations about the case.
At least three Representatives and one Senator spoke against the University.
UNE (Brazilian Student Union), the feminist movement and the labor's unions protested the school today.
OAB (Brazilian law bar association) is also was against what happened.
Both left and right wing media are supporting the girl.
It is a horrifying case, but at least the outlook for discussions of gender in Brazil seems positive, even though there are other (valid or not so pure) reasons those entities are being so outspoken. Or maybe I'm being a little too patriotically optimistic. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/10/09
The cognitive dissonance was making my head explode - I heard incredibly progressive (and not so progressive) things coming out of people's mouths about the rights of women to wear whatever they want, and the macho culture, etc - all while openly objectifying all the "pretty girls" who spoke out, and Geisy herself. There was a five minute discussion about whether it would have been ok for Geisy to wear the dress if she were not pretty.....PLEASE MAKE IT STOP!!!!
The best part was when the school's general counsel called in to talk about why they expelled her - apparently Geisy responded to male heckling by lifting her skirt a bit. He was really flustered when people pointed out that perhaps the hecklers were also in the wrong.
Honestly. I love many things about Brazil, and was pleasantly surprised to see so much public support. However, unless people start talking seriously about the harmful side of the "culture of beauty" (i.e. ridiculous objectification and sexualization of women) and how it plays into incidents like these, it's going to be a real struggle to effect lasting change. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/10/09
It takes time for people to truly absorb feminist ideas, and if it keeps coming from the usual places it becomes background noise, at least with new actors involved even with less than desirable discourse the impact on the general population will be higher. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
And this bit especially bothered me
"when she left to go to the bathroom, men followed, physically fighting with her and trying to take cell phone pictures between her legs."
So there was both assault and sexual assault. How is shoving a camera in someone's crotch ok? And really, hasn't anyone ever worn a short dress in Brazil before? #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
Can you imagine how psychologically damaging this incident was? In my mind, they might as well have raped her, for how utterly violated and disgusted she must feel. Watching this video was like seeing a nightmare come to life; I can't even find the words to express how disturbing this incident was, and on how many levels (and yet, disturbing still isn't even a strong enough descriptor).
11/09/09
Mob of Rapists Spark Mass Hysteria at Brazilian University.
Fixed that headline for you. There's not a skirt short enough in this world to make a man disinclined to rape shout at a woman that he wants to rape her. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
Too much stupidity to wade through on a Monday...I'm climbing back into bed and hope when I come back there's a happier story posted. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
This is much more serious than that silly rape threat. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
1. Conform to the stereotype and become homophobic, xenophobic, etc.
2. Renounce my religion that just might mean a great deal to me.
3. Assert that I am not crazy and that I recognize there are assholes out there, but I am not one of them.
Is it too much to hope that people would at least try to see me as a complex human being? I am not a stereotype. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
But nothing is gained by denying people the label the call themselves. These people say they're Christian, they're Christian, full stop. Are you Jesus? Then don't tell him who his followers are.
And have a little sensitivity to the fact that you're derailing a thread about RAPE and making it about one of the most powerful groups of people in the world. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
I don't have any issues with Christianity, I have issues with "what about the menz" style arguments. I promise you, Christians aren't the ones who are hurt by what happened in Brazil.
The real victim is the woman who was mobbed by a gang of violent people threatening to rape her.
Your callousness to that fact is unreal.
Try this link:
[shakespearessister.blogspot.com] #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
Seriously, check Gnaltby's link if you still think you had a reasonable response. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/10/09
11/10/09
"I don't appreciate blaming all Christians for what the crazies do. We're definitely not all like that and attacking someone's religion is not cool. What would Jesus do? Not this. "
Both of these statements cannot be true. When you conform exactly to the type of Christian that comes on here to absolve and dissociate themselves in the face of a heinous crime, what can you expect people to think of you? I find it tiresome to debate a dishonest person, so I've had enough of this. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
I'm from Sao Paulo and spent summers in Rio for most of my childhood. When going topless at the beach became the fashion, women were protected by police lest they were stoned (unrelated to weed) or burned by hot sand thrown onto their backs. Never mind that the bikini tops at that time barely covered nipples anyway.
I see parallels with this story. There are so many layers of wrong here that teasing them apart will take my brain some time.
Brazilian culture isn't cohesive and there's a lot of regional variation. A couple of things apply, however: Catholicism was the founding religion and all festivities remotely related to nature originate from native or African religions. Anything related to sexuality is therefore fraught with two rather different understandings of the natural world and our own bodies, resulting in truly bizarre, context-specific rules for showing off a woman's sexuality -- such as "Carnaval ok, my wife not ok, beach ok, 1 block off beach not ok" etc etc.
Controlling, illogical, maddening. No wonder I moved to another country. :( #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
That poor girl. I can't even imagine how horrifying that would be. It would be like a real-life zombie movie, except instead of wanting to eat you, they just want to sexually assault you.
I would never want to leave the house again. Or go to class. Or talk to people. Holy hell, I cannot process this. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
Well played, Uniban. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
The real issue is the hyper-sexualization of females in this country; I say "females" and not "women" because they sell those famous thong bikinis and heels in sizes for 3-5 year old girls. Women are expected to constantly be made up, in heels, and available for ogling and lewd suggestions from men. Making platonic male friends has been incredibly difficult; so many men seemed confounded by the concept of a non-sexualized relationship with a woman.
The most disturbing part about this is that a large part of the pressure to conform to this ideal comes not from men, but from other women. Those women who are not hyper-feminine are shunned, yet the ladies get insanely competitive and hateful when a girl is *too* pretty. I've seen a lot of the interviews and news reports on this in Portuguese, and the message is basically like, this girl was blond and blue-eyed, so she was too pretty for school, and she acted inappropriately by being overtly sexual. Both sexes were punishing her for this; she was taunted by both men AND women.
I obviously think the school is out of line, as were the students who harassed her, and think women should be able to wear what they want without being attacked. However, I also think women should take responsibility in terms of not feeding into this insanely sexualized culture. Brazilian women need to STOP pressuring other women to conform to these ridiculous standards, stop sexualizing their daughters at a young age, stop accepting a double standard in terms of their son's aggressive behavior toward women, and stop defining themselves by their sexuality. Obviously what happened here is NOT this woman's fault - all I am saying is that women here do a lot of work to perpetuate these sexist attitudes here and it makes me really sad and angry. I expect more from both the men and women of Brazil. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
She is planning on going back to school, and from what I gather from her interviews, she does not plan on changing how she dresses.
She is wearing "the dress" in a lot of her TV appearances. What is kind of gross about the whole thing is how focused the media is on her looks - it just plays into this whole female competition thing without touching on the real issues, and frankly further objectifies her. Also, by focusing so much on her looks, it feels like they are excusing the men for going absolutely wild. Ugh. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
I speak Spanish, so I kind of understood some stuff. #shortskirtexpulsion
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
11/09/09
The Brazilian minister of education is pissed and opening an investigation, most of the Brazilian side of the internet is also horrified and so is the national student union (UNE), even the most conservative media seem to be by her side.
The school is now known as UniTaliban.