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Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
The Vatican: Vote Against Abortion Or Be Damned

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Kater Tot
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Man, it's days like this I miss JP2, he was a pretty rad dude and he kept politics out of it: [kidsister.files.wordpress.com]

My entire Catholic family calls the new guy "Emperor Palpatine," as it should be.
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mariamariamaria
11/19/08

@Kater Tot: "Man, it's days like this I miss JP2" Me, too. Although he was staunchly pro-life and conspicuously mum on the promotion of birth control in the developing world, JP2 would have NEVER issued such a stupid edict.
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Flackette Goes Retro
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
I think it really is an access issue. The problem isn't so much that one hospital or doctor wants to deny a service, as it is that many women don't have a choice about where they go for medical care. I grew up in a small town; if somebody needed an abortion they would have had to secure transportation 2 - 3 hours away, get time off from work, pay for a place to stay overnight and get someone to take them there and back, plus arrange childcare if they already have kids. Plus the cost of the procedure, that's running well over $1,000 in some cases. That just isn't feasible for women living in rural poverty. Very low income women often can't afford to go to the doctor for a birth control prescription. Even if Medicaid covers the doctor visit, it doesn't cover the pills. As for abstaining or condom use...ever try to tell an abusive, possibly alcoholic, uneducated husband/boyfriend he can't have sex with his wife/girlfriend without a condom? Not all women are in a position to set the ground rules in sex. Of course all these problems apply to urban women as well, except for being anywhere from 2 - 8 hours away from the nearest provider. You can't just hop a bus from the farm into the city to visit Planned Parenthood.
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@Flackette is a Red State Elitist: Also importantly, Catholic hospitals get funding from the government
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aftercancer
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
If you really want to get pissed off you need to read this article in the NYT [www.nytimes.com]

It's about the proposal to "protect providers from having to work against their conscience".

I'm really pretty clear on this one. If you think that taking the box of birth control pills out of the box and handing it to the customer puts your soul in danger than DON'T BECOME A FUCKING PHARMACIST!

If you think that dispensing plan B is a sin then YOU ARE FINANCIALLY AND PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUBSEQUENT CHILDREN
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@aftercancer: There are Catholic doctors that don't think women should be allowed to get epidurals because God cursed us all for the sin of Eve. Imagine you go into labor and get rushed to the nearest hospital, only to find that that's the doctor you get. It's so scary if we go down the path of allowing doctors to do things like that.
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mariamariamaria
11/19/08

@HanaMaru: Dude, you made that up! Provide links, please.
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leesie
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Wonder why they don't care in countries where it is illegal for women to get abortions and yet they are still going on under the radar. Where was and is the concern for life there?

Oh, I guess because it's hidden since it's illegal, it doesn't matter. Same as how they hide the priest/molestation issues now.

See no evil--yeah.
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@leesie: Actually, I think they would rather the sinning women hemorrhage to death.
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ArtfulSlinger
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Honestly, why are still making fucking deals with the Catholic Church? Any group whose outlook on freedom, expression and sexual experiences this bad, should not have a stake in how we continue to protect an American law.

Maybe all these women and men who want to end the murder of millions of innocent lives find a cause more present day - as in protection for minors from sexual abuse. Then they can ask the Catholic Church for some advice since they know so much about it. And anyone who is Catholic here, dont get your panties twisted, I am discussing the Church itself, like when I hate on the past eight years, its about Bush's Administration, not America as a whole.
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Hooplehead
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
"[I]t would be the equivalent of a war. It would be like saying: 'We've heard the Catholic Church and we have no interest in their concerns.'"

Oh, kind of like the Catholic Church says to people it purports to care for when they require health care the Church deems inappropriate?

Health care, ur doin it rong.
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Shamrockette
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
I don't want some old, wrinkly guy who wears thousands, even millions, of dollars worth of cloth for robes, to tell me what to do with my uterus.

How about focusing on helping children that are already alive and starving and get that dealt with before you deal with unborn babies.
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@Shamrockette: Each pair of the pope's socks cost $6o. Scarlet Italian silk, natch.
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mepo - Robert Cornhole invented it
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Having been lived in a country whose medical system was created by the Catholic Church I do have respect for their contribution to society. However the connection of religious and health institutions does come at a price. In the US where abortion (at least for the time being) is legal it would seem that despite a given doctor's ethical beliefs the common law should be respected, especially considering the complications that would be associated with Christian Scientists or Jehovah Witnesses. Where does one person's belief end and the gov step in. If we make allowances the fluidity of the medical/ethical boundaries would wreak havoc.
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DontFearTheReefer
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
i'm staunchly pro-choice, but the clause in the freedom of choice act that may force doctors to perform abortions against their consciences doesn't sit right with me. does anyone know what effect the law would actually have?
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braak
11/18/08

@DontFearTheReefer: Probably a relatively small number of doctors would have to change their specialties, or relocate to clinics where they wouldn't be expected to perform abortions.

It's not like you'd be able to just go up to a doctor on the street and be like, "FREEDOM OF CHOICE ACT! GIVE ME AN ABORTION NOW!"
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@DontFearTheReefer: Do you think doctors should be allowed to refuse to prescribe birth control? Epidurals during labor? Hospitals and doctors recieve government funding and they have an ethical obligation to care for their patients. Should a Christian Scientist doctor be allowed to practice while prescribing nothing but prayer?
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TheGuvnah
11/18/08

@DontFearTheReefer: Please don't take the Pope's word on what FOCA would do. His quote is "could force doctors in catholic hospitals..." - this is his fucked up interpretation of the bill. it's not actually true.

Rule #1- don't listen to the Pope talk about american public policy. he's clueless.
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tscheese
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Hey, Catholic Church? How about this: I'll start listening to your concerns once you start giving a shit about me.

Difficulty: I am a lapsed Protestant.

Have fun with that!
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AvantGardenia
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
Speaking of "stopping the murder of innocent victims": Did any of these forced-birth people protest the Iraq War? Why aren't they holding up pictures of decapitated Iraqi civilians? OH WAIT -- Because that would mean ACTUALLY GIVING A SHIT ABOUT SUFFERING, not projecting your narcissistic issues on women making medical choices. My bad.

Also, it boggles my mind that the Vatican is allowed any sway on ANYTHING. Didn't they just pardon Galileo in the last century?

Last bit of rant -- I think there needs to be a massive effort to stop using the term "pro-life" when referring to these people. It's a major concession to them. There is nothing "pro-life" about wanting to deny women sovreignty over their own bodies.

Oh wait -- and if you can't hack dispensing birth control if you are a pharmacist, you needto go get a new job. That's like a firefighter refusing to rescue someone from a burning building because they disapprove of their homosexuality. FAIL.
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braak
11/18/08

@AvantGardenia: Very well! We shall now begin referring to them as womb-fascists.
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Hana Maru
11/18/08

@AvantGardenia: "That's like a firefighter refusing to rescue someone from a burning building because they disapprove of their homosexuality. FAIL."

But that would affect MEN, not just women. Naturally they'd lose their job if they tried to pull that.
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morninggloria
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
By the logic of medical professionals being against medical procedures:

I should have been an engineer. An aerospace engineer! Granted, I strongly dislike advanced math. Granted, my degree is in English. Granted, I know nothing of basic laws of physics.

I know! I'll just tell everyone that I'm one of those anti-engineering engineers! All of the paycheck, none of the work.
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braak
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
See, this is what happens when you elect a guy to be God's shepherd on Earth. Popes never think they have to compromise.
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CapHillEscapee
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
WHY is the Vatican an advisor to the President ANYWAY? Isnt that... kinda why we HAVE America? Seperation of Church & State?
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yvanehtnioj
11/18/08

@CapHillEscapee: Hell, I'll do you one further: Separation of State and State. You're a different country, Vatican! Run that 3-block radius of single men however you see fit, but don't imagine that you get to run the US too.
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pandorasmittens
11/18/08

In reply to Hardline Anti-Choicers Will Not Compromise With Obama Administration
I remember when we were forced to do history day projects in high school, and a staunchly pentecostal girl did an "unbiased" display called "Roe V. Wade: The Decision that KILLED Them". She plastered the project with photos like that, and painted her headers with fake blood (the thick Halloween-y kind). I really wish I had something constructive to say to people like that protester, but shit like that throws me into a blind rage.

From a factual standpoint, it's pertinent to point out that the Anti-Choicers' photos of "abortions" are usually doctored so the aborted fetus looks more human.
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DixieCaverns
11/18/08

@pandorasmittens: Good point. Also, aren't most of those photos late-term miscarriages or emergency abortions as opposed to the far more common first-trimester terminations?
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pandorasmittens
11/18/08

@DixieCaverns: Yes-they are often photos of stillborn babies. I also know of one particular pamphlet that used a dead animal and photoshopped it to look human. An actual aborted fetus looks nothing like that.
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