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New York, 7:07 AM
Wed Nov 25
57 posts in the last 24 hours
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10/27/09
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10/26/09
Yes, Ariel disobeys her patriarch of a father and is kinda a bad-ass rule breaking teenager, but her story STILL revolves around her relationship with a dreamy prince. Yes, Belle is a bookworm who would rather read that swoon over Gaston, but her story STILL revolves around her relationship with a beastly prince. Yes, Jasmine disobeys her patriach of a father and tries to escape an arranged marriage, but her story STILL revolves around her relationship with a loveable street-rat.
Yes, Pocohantas disobeys her patriach of a father and promotes cross-cultual communication, but her story still revolves around her relationship with John Smith.
Yes, Mulan disobeys her patriach of a father and dresses in drag and goes to war, but her story STILL revolves around her relationship with her commanding officer.
you get my picture.
The modern princesses are given more subjectivity in the beginning of their stories and we like that, its a good thing, its a step forward. It makes them fuller characters than the princesses of the past. But the end of the stories is always the same; they always ends with validation through love and implied (if not explicitly shown) marriage. That independence that we loved as little girls because we could see in them ourselves, was always sacrificed for the ring in the end. #disneybridal
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and i do think its teaching young girls things like this. how fucking obnoxious (and pervasive) is princess-culture? there are grown women who want to be/think they're princesses. most of us grow up and out of it, but some people just aren't able or willing to let it go. #disneybridal
10/27/09
10/27/09
one of the reasons (middle-class western) women get married much later in life than they used to is because marriage used to end a woman's public life. the societal expectation was that upon marriage she would quit whatever job or schooling or whatever she was pursuing outside of the domestic sphere and go into the home to be a wife and mother, and women didn't like that restriction. we fought very hard to extend our lives outside of the domestic sphere so that a woman's narrative would continue on after her wedding day. things have changed, but the disney princesses haven't quite caught up yet. #disneybridal
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And your evidence for this is? The fact that there were two direct-to-video sequels? Which actually weren't sequels at all because the took place WITHIN the timeline of the original movie, before her happily ever and wedding?
"like it or not marriage is a valid feminist choice"
when did i say that it wasn't?
"Marriage doesn't have to be about the patriarchy forcing women to become chattel."
No, it doesn't have to be and most of the time I don't think it is. Sometimes it is though. Admitting this wont suddenly invalidate your marriage. Also, marriage means something A LOT different than it did 50 years ago, or 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago. What I was mentioning upthread was what marriage USED to be, not what it is now. Which is why i think the disney films are outdated. Women don't get married directly after (or during!) adolescence anymore and even if they do, the societal expectation isn't for them to shrink into the private sphere as they once did. #disneybridal
10/28/09
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10/26/09
Then I had a friend tell me The Lion King is racist (unfortunately without explaining) which makes me wonder how many other things my white privilege makes me ignorant about. *sigh* So then I decided it would just be easier to not have kids - the world is way too complicated. #disneybridal
10/26/09
Although Rafiki the blue-bottomed baboon is another shining example of Disney's totally bizarre dialect decisions. And Scar is TOTALLY coded gay. So perhaps Lion King is a bit homophobic too? #disneybridal
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10/27/09
And I mean, Ursula from The Little Mermaid was basically a fabulous, fat drag queen. #disneybridal
10/27/09
10/27/09
An elephant graveyards aren't ghettos, at least not as understood in many African cultures. Historically elephant graveyards are seen a sacred due to the admiration of elephants. Elephants were admired because they had no enemies in the animal world - they are not afraid of anyone, and no other beast could conquer an them. Elephants were seen as rulers of the wild that could only die natural deaths, therefore the places where they died - elephant graveyards - were sacred. Now of course we know that some lion prides are skilled enough to kill an elephant (though it usually requires the entire pride to do so), and that elephants kill each other. Yet the sacred nature of an elephant graveyard isn't overlooked. That's what I saw depicted in The Lion King - you don't mess with sacred, mythical territory, and only irreverent animals would do so.
I know the socio-political elements of Disney movies, in this case The Lion King, are appealing. Surely sometimes/most of the time, reading those themes into the movie is beneficial. However, don't overlook the simplicity of what's being depicted, in this case, Africa. I think that the Disney folks did their research. #disneybridal
10/27/09
the objection is not that hyenas are the villains, but that villains are coded as the only poc in a very very white film.
think of the crows in dumbo, for the 90s. #disneybridal
10/27/09
Wild hyenas don't 'speak' at all, so I have no reason to comment on their voices. I understand your point about the actors portraying them, though, so I felt and continue to feel no reason to contradict you or add anything to your argument. I made no attempt to argue about the race of the actors portraying the characters. I'm also aware of the archetypal roles of various characters in The Lion King beyond only Rafiki, and I understand that socio-political readings of the movie can be correct, as I stated.
My goal was just to add a little African reality to certain things in the movie, that is all. #disneybridal
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the same article i read that talked about that the civilization of manhood (which really isnt that out there, its a pretty dominant meme that has strong roots in american intellectual history) talked about the "be our guest" number as a dehumanizing domestic workers by giving them an uncontrollable biological desire to serve their employers. without anyone to serve, they are unhappy and useless. as the song says, they only live to serve!
i personally think these alternate readings can take a rather dull source material and make it much richer and interesting.
10/27/09
10/27/09
i understand what you're trying to say, but we're not really talking about the traditional story that was handed down orally for hundreds of years. if we were then i would agree with you, but we're talking about the movie released across the world in 1991 that was the first and only animated film ever nominated for best film at the academy awards that continues to be one of disneys biggest cash cows and is still socially relevant enough to be parodied on SNL two weeks ago. #disneybridal
10/27/09
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10/26/09
"Betcha on land/they understand/Bet they don't reprimand their daughters/Bright young women/sick of swimming/ready to stand."
I have had this argument with countless people--people who claim that Ariel is the weakest of all because of her decision to give up her voice to get a man--absolutely not. She had an urge to go to the surface long before she met Eric (remember her grotto?). She became an archeologist of sorts, trying to learn about a (HUGE) new world with what she salvaged from under the sea. What other Disney princess (aside from Belle) had THAT much interest in something that wasn't sleeping, cooking (for dwarves), or cleaning (with mice)?
Ursula's MO--which Ariel questions and then eventually overcomes throughout the course of the movie--is that no one cares what a pretty girl has to say. Being the villain, doesn't it only make sense that her outlook is the polar opposite of what the prescribed 'good' way of thinking ought to be?
Ariel is the easiest target, yet she is likely the strongest of the princesses of described above. It's no wonder she, to this day, holds a special place in the hearts of 3 year olds AND 23 year olds (and many in between).
I have nothing to say about Snow White, however. She really should have tried harder. It was the thirties, but come on.
10/26/09
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10/27/09
On the occassions where she was saved it was usually by her friends, not her love interest. Friends that she made because she was loyal, interested, and interesting. #disneybridal
10/28/09
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@JerkoftheMonth: Oh man, she was not Disney's most ethnically sensitive characters. Who knew Neverland was in the middle of the American Plains? #disneybridal
10/26/09
Actually, the Movie is ten times better of a portrayal of Native Americans than the Play or Book, simply because in the Movie at least they didn't speak pretty much solely in grunts, and occasionally spoke actual words. #disneybridal
10/26/09
"occasionally spoke actual words" would be the key word about their lines, though. I clearly remember a lot of "how" and "heap big" in the film, which is pretty damn cringe-inducing.
Oh holy gawd. The actual text in Google Books uses both "Picaninnies" and "redskins" in reference to people, but from what I can gather, doesn't specify Tiger Lily and the "savages" as anything beyond "other". So I stand by the fact that Disney didn't need to decide to further the othering of native peoples by dropping Plains peoples into the middle of the movie. #disneybridal
10/26/09
negative representations of minority cultural groups are bad enough, but to other them to the point where you imply that they no long exist anywhere except a fantasy island? thats a whole 'nother kind of fucked up. #disneybridal
10/26/09
In the musical version I watched as a kid, with Mary Martin, Peter and Tiger Lily were like respected war generals of an equal band who united to fight a common foe. There was this song about, if i'm in trouble I'll call on you. someting like that. and there was a cultural exchange. #disneybridal
10/27/09
10/27/09
"The wood is now so silent that you may be sure it is full of redskins. TIGER LILY comes first. She is the belle of the Piccaninny tribe, whose braves would all have her to wife, but she wards them off witha hatchet. She puts her ear to the ground and listens, then beckons, and GREAT BIG LITTLE PANTHER and the tribe are around her, carpeting the ground. Far away some one treads on a dry leaf.
TIGER LILY. Pirates! (They do not draw their knives) the knives slip into their hands.) Have um scalps? What you say?
PANTHER. Scalp um, oho, velly quick.
THE BRAVES (in corroboration). Ugh, ugh, wah."
They then light a fire and dance around it and break a peace pipe. Yeah. It's THAT BAD, and it only gets worse. Even with the connotation of Piccaninny aside.
10/26/09
It is especially harmful because:
a) It is more subtle and acceptable (even in 2009), and therefore easily internalized, than just "pretty people win."
b) Even when they are being nice, none of the princesses are ever actively thinking for themselves or solving their own problems.
That said, Mulan is an exception to all this. She is one of my favorite movie heroines ever :) #disneybridal
10/26/09
Wow, as the author of the original chart, I have to say that I’m overwhelmed by the responses here and elsewhere. There are far too many comments worthy of response here, so I won’t even try to respond to all. I would like to clarify a couple of things.
First, obviously, when you grab an image from disney.com and gin it up to make a point, you’re going to sacrifice depth for impact. I fully admit that some of the conclusions ignore some specific aspects of a character’s…character. For instance: Yes, the prince only falls for Ariel after she can talk. Good for him. But if she hadn’t drastically changed her appearance would she even have gotten that chance? Maybe she would have, but we won’t know. She DECIDES that changing her body is the most direct route to getting his attention.
Secondly, I would like to point out that many of the “analyses” are very short not because of lack of thought, but because of lack of space. One could (and some no doubt have) write a whole dissertation on a single one of these characters. That wasn’t the idea here it was intended more as something to laugh about among friends and point out some of the flaws in these depictions of young women. I’m not sure how the image ended up here (or on some other sites) but clearly someone thought it was worth sharing. I wouldn’t mind if they’d given me credit, but I’m glad that others are (generally) enjoying it.
Finally, I guess I’ll take credit since it wasn’t attributed to me in the first place. My name is Jeff Brunner, I’m a librarian and the proud father of a little girl who will NOT be watching these movies. Anyway, thanks to all for interesting commentary. As I said, I never intended for this to get such a wide viewing, but I feel like it generally holds up.
10/26/09
10/26/09
Yeah, yeah, she went under cosmetic surgery of sorts to be able to live with her hubby Eric, but she is pretty independent, no? #disneybridal
10/26/09
Then again, maybe she wants legs just so she can do the nasty with Eric, which would be more difficult with her fins. Maybe sex wins after all... #disneybridal
10/26/09
10/26/09
Belle always struck me as an excellent character because she was smart and didn't try and hide her intelligence, despite enduring ridicule from an entire town. She also didn't marry the handsome asshole, or give into his advances. And, she saved the Beast, not because she was beautiful (which may have helped), but because she she loved him and allowed him the space to love her.
I agree that the Princess stories are flawed, but let's denigrate them all to stories of helpless women: a lot of them are about women going for what they want (and if that's love, so what). #disneybridal
10/26/09
10/26/09
She tamed a tiger, give her a break. #disneybridal
10/26/09
A few inches appear to migrate up to the chest each decade. #disneybridal
10/26/09
More Betty Draper than Joan.
10/26/09
[images.starpulse.com]
vs.
[disney-clipart.com]