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Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"

"Nothing Was Ever Accomplished By Hiding In A Dark Corner": Remembering Del Martin
Del Martin, Lesbian Activist, Dies • A Working Mom's Day Never Ends

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wry_bred
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
Honestly, it would have been terrible politically if Prop 8 was overturned: it would be a statement that people's votes didn't actually count for anything. While I personally believe it's a shame that gay marriage remains illegal in CA, it would be a travesty democratically speaking to overturn it.
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KatrinaBullfinch
05/26/09

Once and for all: voting on civil rights is not, and never was, part of what democracy encompasses.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: So who does get to decide, then?
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Laulau
05/26/09

@wry_bred: There seems to be a lot of discussion on this point over at Gawker, but democracy does not entail permitting majority tyranny. Rights are rights.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: And frankly, you can't put the genie back into the bottle. Whether you find it fair or not, the decision was put to the people in this case, and to tell them after that that their vote don't mean shit would be pretty damaging.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: So who does get to decide on civil rights issues, if not "the people"? Are we saying that basically people are too small-minded and ignorant to be allowed to make these decisions? If so, who makes them for them?
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Miss. Money-Sterling
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch:

Yes. This. Being in a democracy does not mean we get to vote on which minority groups we'd like to deny equal rights to.
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Laulau
05/26/09

@wry_bred: I suppose, indirectly, civil rights are decided by the people because we elect our government. But I firmly agree with the Framers that there are certain innate rights. We can't just vote to reenact slavery, we can't just vote to readopt coverture, and I think marriage rights fall in the same category.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Miss. Money-Sterling: Okay. But right now they don't have equal rights. So who gets to decide they should, if not the people? This is a real problem that can't be argued away by rhetoric about what we do and do not "get" to do.
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Laulau
05/26/09

@Laulau: And I should be clear, this is a normative statement. Of course there is a sense in which we could do these things. But that would make us truly awful people.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: The Framers, who created a government that cared only about the wishes of white male landowners? Something tells me they wouldn't have voted no on Prop 8!
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: So you'd rather put it in the hands of the people we elect? Since they're so morally upright and all, compared to the unwashed masses?
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BAngieB
05/26/09

@wry_bred: I guess we will just have to have another War of Northern Agression in order to make sure we all have equal rights.

If you are the minority, you can never have a majority vote.
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Laulau
05/26/09

@wry_bred: The statement about the people we elect was a factual one - they are, in fact, who gets to decide, despite clear errors on their part. DOMA and Don't Ask/Don't Tell, anyone?

At the end of the day, I'm a moral realist. (And have a dissertation partially backing that up.) I think that human beings simply come to the table with certain rights. You can vote to suppress those rights, but that just makes you in the wrong. Part of our democratic system is trying to protect those rights, even in the face of majority opposition. And while the Framers probably would have supported Prop 8 (among other measures - can't see them getting behind the 19th Amendment, either), the system they put together clearly means to provide (among other things) protection for minorities from the majority.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: It's just weird to me that we're supposed to ignore the wishes of the people because it's wrong of them to make decisions on civil rights issues. Wasn't it "the people" who got the ball rolling on the first civil rights movement, without whom horrible segregation laws would not be questioned? Are we only supposed to listen to the people when they say something we like?
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Laulau
05/26/09

@wry_bred: I'll grant you that the question of who has epistemic authority is a complicated one, with obvious and serious practical upshot. But the whole point of our system (as I see it) is to provide and protect certain basic rights. So, yes, if the citizens of California passed a ballot initiative to make women legal property of their husbands or wives, than the courts should overturn that. I feel similarly about prop 8.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: I think all your points would be valid if we lived in a true democracy--that is, a country whose government actually represented and reflected its demographics--but I sadly think its closer to an oligarchy of large corporations. The way to get your opinion heard here is to be part of a wealthy and powerful lobby. And our party system is two points so close together on such a vast spectrum of ideology that I am not comfortable saying we have a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
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KatrinaBullfinch
05/26/09

@wry_bred: (If you're referring to the civil rights movement of the '60s, that was not nearly the first civil rights movement.)
By "got the ball rolling," are you suggesting that they wanted a vote on civil rights? I promise you that was not the case because if their rights depended on a majority vote, they knew full well that they would never have gotten them. If by "got the ball rolling," you're referring to marching, protests, writing to representatives, and petitioning, these -- unlike voting on rights -- are actions that make up a democracy.
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Laulau
05/26/09

@wry_bred: I want to be clear that I really do recognize the practical difficulties in making moral progress.

That being said, I like to think that points are even more valid because we do live in such a conservative nation, largely driven by corporate interests. All the more reason to insist on civil rights, popular bigotry be damned.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: But this is basically privileging certain public actions over others as having more authority. I think that's a tricky call to make. It's a slippery slope is all I'm saying, when it comes to policing who has the right to decide what about civil rights issues, and even what constitutes a civil rights issue.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: And the 60's is generally just referred to as the civil rights movement, so that's what I did. I know that it wasn't the first time a minority group sought equal rights.
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@Laulau: I agree with you; I wish it was easier to make moral progress. But CA put this to a vote, whether it should have or not, and making people's votes null and void is a dangerous path to start down on, morally justified or not.
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KatrinaBullfinch
05/26/09

How is this privileging certain public actions over others as having more authority? You mean demonstrating over voting, or something else?
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: Yes, that is what I mean. Look, I have no idea about the legality of actually putting this to a vote, but that is what CA did, and I think it would be VERY dangerous to start down the road of deciding that certain people's votes should be null and void while others' shouldn't. Talk about a civil rights issue.
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lilad
05/26/09

@wry_bred: Someone earlier in the thread said that 60% of people in Alabama believe inter-racial marriage is wrong. If they were to put that to a vote should the majority opinion take away a basic human right?
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@lilad: No--which is why they shouldn't put it to a vote, is what I and most rational people would say. But the sad fact is that CA DID put a civil rights issue to a vote, and the people had their say, and I think it would be wrong to just have a "do-over."
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KatrinaBullfinch
05/26/09

I still don't understand how you think that certain public actions have been "privileged" as having more authority. Everyone can demonstrate, write to their rep, etc., regardless of their side of the issue; no citizen has the right to vote on it. Yes, CA was allowed to. They never should have been because a democracy should not allow it. Our government does a lot of stuff it's not sanctioned to do. The answer isn't to keep letting it happen so it doesn't look like we goofed.
The other thing I don't understand about your argument is that you think certain people's votes are null and void and others' aren't. Who falls into either camp here?
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wry_bred
05/26/09

@KatrinaBullfinch: I'm saying that if Prop 8 had been turned down, it would be rendering a large amount of people's votes as null and void, which I think would be a very dangerous precedent to set. And yes, our government does a ton of shit we're not sanctioned to do. I am not a legal or poly sci scholar and don't know whether making Prop 8 a ballot initiative was legal. And I don't think we should just accept all the awful shit our country does, though that is most often what we do end up having to do, since it's pretty impossible to have your voice heard without the backing of a powerful lobby. But I do think that this particular action you seem to support--rendering people's votes on Prop 8 null and void by overturning it--is one that would have dangerous implications that for me outweigh the moral unfairness of the initiative.
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kithkin
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
I like her remarks about priorities. I think a lot of us feel strongly about some particular issue, and it gets hard for us to take other people whose priorities are different but hearts are in the same place seriously or respect them when our own convictions and feelings are clouding our judgment. Just because gay marriage wasn't a priority for her when she was younger doesn't mean equal rights weren't important. We all have our own priorities when it comes to personal and political issues, and I'm glad she mentioned that. How wonderful it must have felt to get married that day.

It will be OK indeed.
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AuntieBee
05/26/09

@kithkin: It kind of puts things in perspective when you realize that within her lifetime, heck within her adult working years, she saw the end of termination and eviction on the grounds of sexual orientation. We have come a long way. We still have a way to go, but we are moving.
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CurtCole
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
I went from angry to water-works, glad I am alone in my office today.
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Whiskey and Popcorn
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
That picture of her and her wife getting married? Beautiful. One of my favourite images ever. That was love.
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moodyonceamonth
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
I've also thought before about the similarity between gay marriage and interracial marriage. I think someday we'll look back and we won't be able to believe it was ever an issue.
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Laulau
05/26/09

@moodyonceamonth: Except for the fact that, while it may be legal, interracial marriages are still subject to a lot of stress and public scrutiny in the U.S. We have such a long way to go before actual equality.
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la.donna.pietra
05/26/09

@moodyonceamonth: Believe it or not, more people in Alabama are currently opposed to interracial marriage (~60% in a recent poll) than voted against Prop 8 in California (52%).
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MizJenkins
05/26/09

@moodyonceamonth: I have a very difficult time equating these two. The traditional definition of marriage is in no way premised upon race...
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Laulau
05/26/09

@MizJenkins: No, the traditional definition of marriage is an economic transaction between two families looking for advantageous property, or a woman who needs legal and financial protection and a man who wants sex.
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SqueakyGasket
05/26/09

@Laulau: And heirs. LOTS of heirs.
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MizJenkins
05/26/09

@SqueakyGasket: Exactly. And that kind of makes a huge difference. Although I realize now that modern technology allows two people of the same gender to produce heirs...

There's a slippery slope in there that I object to on principal, but I can't find it in me to object to two people who love each other - whoever they are - making a sincere covenant to emotionally and financially support each other for life. That's just beautiful and rare and people need to step the fuck off.

But that said, at least there has historically been a halfway logical biological basis to the objection to same-sex marriage (for the "marriage is for babies" set, who are entitled to their opinion) and there is nothing but hateful racist rhetoric underlying the objection to miscegenation.
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BAngieB
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
"Luckily," says Lyon, "each of us had just gotten a new pantsuit." Lesbian quote of the century, followed by "belt or no belt?" and "which shoes? Sensible or very sensible?"
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angelheadedhipster
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
Zen: She haz it.
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Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
I love her so, so much. She has so much wisdom. Every time she speaks, I am struck by her peace and compassion. I cried when Del Martin died. They were/are truly an inspirational pair.
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Laulau
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
What a lovely human being.

Personally, even marriage itself isn't the issue, it's about recognizing LGBTQ individuals as equal people, with equal rights.
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ellaesther
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
I don't know if I am happier about the pantsuit comment or the simplicity of "It will be OK."

Ok, it's the second one. Man oh man. She's just cool.

Also: I'll bet she eats before 3:30 in the afternoon, and Del did, too.
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Sugartits
05/26/09

In reply to Same-Sex Marriage Pioneer Says Marriage "Never Was Much Of An Issue"
This calmed me down.
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ellaesther
05/26/09

@Mr. False Pretense: I know, right? It's like Anna looked at what's happening on the other thread and said "Yowza! Let's give them this, too!"
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