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Hiroine Protagonist
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I can't believe the number of people posting here writing cruel and judgmental things about Mackenzie Phillip's motivations for writing this book and going on Oprah. The book release was going to expose her story. The interview with Oprah was the most efficient way to go vis a vis the millions of interview requests she would get after publication. I don't really see this as a traditional "promotional" tool because a more effective way to drive the first week purchasers would just be to make round hints "something happened!" and NOT make it clear before the launch. Her story has gone out on Oprah - for free - and the book - which costs money - will be available. If she were out for the money she wouldn't have exposed the major reveal in the book prior to the pub date.

To all of you crass bastards who think this is funny or she's out for cash or she asked for it or she was an adult and therefore at age 18 had a magical power to change her entire life and upbringing - educate yourselves and go look up compassion on wikipedia.
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dumblonde
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
Shame on the people that are questioning her. This double victimization of abuse victims is what keeps incidents like this quiet. Incest happens more often than we'd like to think and even in the "best" families.
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sybann
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
Did anyone else think her claims of "consensual" sex with her father were still the adult child trying to protect a very sick and fucked up man? He IS her father, no matter what reprehensible things he did to her and her impulse - even while trying to get healthy by admitting this and trying to move past it - would be to protect the person who makes up half of who she is. This is just cripplingly sad - I really didn't think I'd be able to watch it but I felt she was far more honest - and brave - than Whitney was.
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tankearae
09/24/09

@sybann: Yep - this was what I thought. Particularly since she talked about "waking up with [her] pants around her ankles..." I can't even imagine HOW someone would process that sort of thing, but given that there is probably some instinct to protect him its not surprising.

Ugh. So awful.
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fluxus flucker
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I woke up this morning still feeling angry over some of the comments that I read on Jez, regarding this news, yesterday.

To all of you who feel that she shouldn't speak up or is lying because she has a history of drug abuse or because the accused is dead: that is the most bullshit reason I've ever heard for not believing a rape & child abuse accusation.

1. Think about how hard it is to come to terms with such trauma; to admit it to oneself and to others. It can take decades - esp if memories are surprressed because of extreme trauma. The process is further delayed by self-medication and drug abuse to deal with the pain (particularly when one's abuser and parent introduced one to drugs in the first place!)

2. Think of how terrifying it is to face one's abuser. To hear denials and "excuses". Particularly if one has already tried to face the abuser only to be shut down, made to feel "crazy" or "wrong".

I could tell a personal story or the stories of some people with whom I'm very close. I could get into case studies.
But, really people, just try to empathize and think about this.
Don't jump to victim blaming or cries of false accusation - esp. if your reasoning is that the accused is now dead or that the accuser was a drug addict.

Another thing: rape is rape.
Gray rape, date rape, non-consensual sex: all rape.
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JuliaStepchild
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: brava, well said. i think the commenters who are saying she wasn't a victim because she "chose" to carry on a sexual relationship simply don't understand the dynamics of sexual abuse. period.
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curioushair
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: Thank you. If I had power to promote this comment, I would. I was watching a morning talk show (which I will not name), and I was disgusted how quickly the host and his crew were to dismiss her claims because of her history of drug abuse.
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hollygirl
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: I'm still thinking about this today as well, and share your reaction to weird people who seem angry at her for wanting to talk about her trauma. There seems to be a profound, strange desire to protect, or identify with, victimizers. I've seen this phenomenon in the family of a close friend who was molested by her brother for years. Guess who got kicked out of the family? she did! we must support brave survivors ( not blindly, of course) and help make changes.
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Edited by hollygirl at 09/24/09 11:22 AM hollygirl was starred hollygirl was unstarred

Cat45
09/24/09

@curioushair: Not to mention that the drugs were made available to her by her father! The term "grooming" is often used when it comes to pedophiles and how they get close to their victims. No one ever said the pedophile couldn't be your own father. The unfortunate uncomfortable truth of this is that she is probably very much not alone in what she's experienced--but then it would be best not to talk about it right--because she's a drug addict.....and it's all about John Philips legacy. Why, why,why, is the man always protected and the victim further vilified? I will never understand that.
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dreamypisces
09/24/09

@curioushair: The thing that gets me is that in most cases drug abuse is a driven by something - physically abusive parents, tormenting bulling at school or sexual abuse.

A large percent of people that abuse drugs do it to get out of their skins and escape. So, why can't people believe that she was sexually abused by her father and then to help forget/come to terms with it she drove herself into a deeper drug addiction.

This makes all the sense in the world to me.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
09/24/09

@dreamypisces: Yeah, it's like right out of Intervention. You see a pretty girl with the perfect life who turned into an addict and it's just a matter of time (and editing) before you learn about her being molested or raped. Every. SIngle. Time.

What a nightmare that what likely helped drive her to drugs is being disbelieved... because she turned to drugs.
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BuffyPhD
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: Yup. Thanks for saying it.
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JuniperTwilight
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
The age you start abusing drugs and alcohol is said to stunt your mental age until you sober up. To be fuc*ed by your father at 17 when you're doing heavy drugs,(that he provided) is not exactly the environment for mental or physical growth. To use the word "consensual" as far as she is concerned is simplified and absurd. To argue if she is a "true victim" or "personally responsible
enough" is ludicrous. Her sense of right and wrong is probably a little jaded when a trusted, beloved parent treats you like a wife.
Her synapses can't be expected to fire normally after growing up being so poisoned physically and mentally.
It's sick and twisted.
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fluxus flucker
09/24/09

@JuniperTwilight: I'm glad you mentioned that about brain development because its so true. And it seems that so many people do not understand (or care to remember) this. Trauma can physically alter one's brain function, as can years of emotional abuse and drug abuse.
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JuliaStepchild
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: in mackenzie's case, i'm amazed at how lucid, articulate and dead on she is about her reflection on her trauma. i really admire her.
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CarolineCabelin
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
Tp 10 Rsns Why Jhn Phlps ctd s H Dd:

10) Dnny Dghrty hd lrdy clld dbs n "th ft n."

9) Phlps ntrprtd Mchl's lvng nd drng gz s hr "ttlly cmng n" t hm.

8) Strng t n drgs, Phlps thght Mchl ws hs sstr.

7) Phlps ws tryng t pllt hs glt fr hvng rpd Jhn Sbstn.

6) Phlps ws ctng n xprss nstrctns frm bckwrds vrsn f "Dn't Pss M By" n Th Wht lbm.

5) Phlps wntd t mk Jm Mrrsn lk lk Prry Cm.

4) Th bnd's mngr ncrgd t fr th sk f grp nty, ddng, "W dn't wnt Yk sttn hr."

3) Cnvnnc: Phlps's thr mstrss ws bs rd wy.

2) Phlps cnsdrd t th nxt bst thng t thrsm wth hs wf nd dghtr.

1) d Sllvn pd gd mny fr th vdtps.
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Hiroine Protagonist
09/24/09

@CarolineCabelin: You make me sick.
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Adah
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I'm not usually one of those people who stop reading, listening, or watching artists' work based on their personal lives. This, however? I don't think I can listen to a Mamas and Papas song again without thinking about it.
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fluxus flucker
09/24/09

@Adah: I feel exactly the same. And The Mamas and The Papas have long been one of my favorite bands. I even used sing their songs to my kids at bed time. But, I don't think I can disassociate this horrible story from the music. Not for a while anyway.
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Red-headed bookworm
09/24/09

@fluxus flucker: I know...but just think about Cass Elliot when you hear them.
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boozehound
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
She may have had a shitty and perverted father, but I don't believe that she was a victim when choosing to carry on a sexual relationship as an adult in her 20's. In fact, I think it's an insult to true victims of sexual assault to divest her of all personal responsibility in the matter.
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LovelyHue
09/24/09

@boozehound: I think you have to make concessions to the drugs and general mind games that were going on at the time. The power imbalance was huge and the emotional ties were complex.

In addition, all of the situations she described sound like date rape. I have no idea when it became 'consensual' according to her own concession, but I have a feeling it had more to do with Stockholm's Syndrome than actual choice.

So, yeah. Disagree.
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Atilla the Bun
09/24/09

@boozehound: I agree for the most part. I do think she was a victim, but I think it's wrong to act like she has no responsibility for what took place or that it was not consensual because he was her father. She was a grown woman, mother, and wife at the point she claims she was having sex with him on her own volition. That doesn't mean her father was not all kinds of wrong and awful, but to say she was purely a victim and has no responsibility for it is kind of ridiculous, imo.
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gobble_dee_goop
09/24/09

@boozehound: im not sure we should really start to say that one person is a "true" victim of sexual assault, while another one isn't. at least in cases like these.
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AllieCaulfield
09/24/09

@boozehound: I think you are wrong on this point.
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kaiwhakamarie
09/24/09

@Atilla the Bun: I watched the interview in its entirety, and honestly I did not get the impression that she was claiming to be a victim in the classic sense, nor was she shirking any responsibility. She mentioned herself that it was consensual and that she was 'old enough to know better'. According to her she wanted to put her story out there to gain closure but also to let other women who had been through similar things in life to know they were not alone and that they weren't terrible people for having lived through it. I didn't get the impression that she was asking for pity or sympathy. In fact, I suspect that, like most people who have been through traumatic experiences, she probably blames herself for what happened far more than any public could do.
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thelaurenator
09/24/09

@boozehound: As someone who has studied the victims of incest thoroughly, I think it's important to note that a LOT of victims of incest claim it was "consensual" or that they "enjoyed" it, even if they were only young children at the time the incest occurred. I'm not sure what Ms. Phillips stated in her book, but on Oprah, at least, it sounded not so consensual to me. She was too drugged/boozed up to even know if she consented! She claims she doesn't even remember most of the times it happened. How does that sound like someone who isn't a victim of sexual violence? Violence doesn't always mean being beaten... emotional violence is a very, very real part of incest.
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SunetraCinyras
09/24/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
Delurking to add my two cents - this happened to my mother, the incest by her father part. Repeatedly until she left home to marry. It destroyed her mental health, her marriage to my father and made her a wreck of a person and incapable of doing much mothering. Her siblings didn't believe her - a couple of them still don't even after her father admitted it. My mother was the only one it happened to, the reason may have been that she was already shy/insecure/unpopular at school compared to her sister. It later came out that in all likelihood her father was abused himself as a child. Allegations of incest seems to bring out very weird responses in people, lots of blaming the victim for destroying the family. Yeah, cause they had a choice.
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Rona
09/24/09

@SunetraCinyras: Wow - I'm so sorry. This kind of abuse just seems to really destroy a person. It takes a child with all the potential, and just destroys that.
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hollygirl
09/24/09

@SunetraCinyras: You are SO right about how this topic brings out weird stuff in people. I'm amazed at how vituperative some comments have been. As if this is fun or gratiyfing at all! As I shared above, my best friend in HS was molested for a few years by her handsome, popular older brother ( who had probably been molested by their priest who later went to jail for child sex abuse) some members of her family choose to cast her out rather than accept that their family produced this situation. we've got a long way to go in this department, and I think oprah deserves alot of credit for starting ( through her own disclosure) and continuing our discussion.
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Edited by hollygirl at 09/24/09 11:16 AM hollygirl was starred hollygirl was unstarred

mariamariamaria
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I can not fathom this. Like literally, I just can't wrap my brain around a father doing this. Thank you God for my decent father.
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ladymacbeth
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
hollywood values.
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Highsmith
09/23/09

@ladymacbeth: I think John Phillips originally was from South Carolina.
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UrbanAchiever
09/24/09

@ladymacbeth: As the child of a non-incestuous Hollywood family, I say, "Hey! Hold on there, missy."
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hollygirl
09/24/09

@UrbanAchiever: Yeah, what does "Hollywood" have to do with it!!
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Hiroine Protagonist
09/24/09

@ladymacbeth: Don't be an ass.
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kalehead
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I read a relatively good interview with Michelle Phillips- basically she kept Chyna in LA while BIjou's Mom Genevieve and John withered away in NY. MIchelle tried to get Tam ( I think away) from them but it didn't. I don't remember anything about Mackenzie although I remembered Bijou's comment abut her father doing drugs with everyone of his children.

Needless to say I think it is pretty shitty to make such hardcore accusations like that about ANYONE who is passed.
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5ft of fury
09/23/09

@kalehead: Yeah, because once someone has died all of their shitty horrific behavior can't be talked about, even if it might help others who are going through a similar hell. Repression, shame, and silence have proven SO effective in curtailing sexual abuse!
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LovelyHue
09/23/09

@kalehead: Because a man like this obviously deserves respect? What?

Also, why call it 'accusations'? People don't make this shit up. They just don't.
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SlappySquirrel
09/24/09

@LovelyHue: Sometimes they do, but I don't really see that Mackenzie Phillips has a motive.
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ocpd301
09/24/09

@kalehead: Maybe you are thinking of the Vanity Fair interview a while back? I went into that article knowing nothing about her, and I came away from that interview thinking Michelle Phillips was bat shit crazy. She seemed to be under the impression that she was a good role model for kids, despite the drug use and revolving door for men. I mean, live it up, but consider the safety of your child/ren, right? Can't you take that stuff down to the Hojo?

I'm just saying that Michelle Phillips is not one to judge Mackenzie.
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
09/24/09

@kalehead: Really? I think she did the man a favor by keeping this to herself and immediate family until he died.
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AlisaBabalas
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I really think she could be doing this in such a public fashion because her father was a public figure, who was probably idolized by many. I'm sure she has to deal with hearing the praise that gets heaped on her big famous musician father, and that wouldn't be stopped if she just told her psychiatrist. She wants the world to know who he was and to be disgusted by him. And I can't really blame her.
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FrannyR
09/24/09

@AlisaBabalas: I think you're absolutely right. Everytime someone came up to her and said "Oh, I loved your father, such a great musician" it must have been turning the knife in her back. Kudos to her for protecting herself, this will surely put a stop to that.
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hello_leanne
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I'm pretty shocked at how many commenters are judging her for talking about this on Oprah. If you actually watched the show, she repeatedly said "I'm coming out because I can't be the only one this happened to". She's trying to start a dialogue, and put a face on something terrible, that most likely others have gone through as well.

We don't often hear incest relationships talked about between adult daughters and fathers, and she's trying to start that conversation. Why would you chastise her for it?
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AllieCaulfield
09/24/09

@hello_leanne:
Thank you for this comment. I'm disappointed that Mackenzie is being attacked for speaking out on something so horrifying...it's an act of bravery on her part.
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Slim
09/23/09

In reply to 10 Reasons Why John Phillips Was The Worst "Papa" Ever
I read a Keith Richards bio (or it may have been the Bebe Buell bio) a while ago and it described some of their mid 1970's acquaintances John Philips and Genvieve, and how they treated Tamerlane, etc. And well.. DUDE they were fucked up, majorly. John (and all his ex-wives) make other rock-star parents look like The Cleavers.

From what I gathered in the book, they pretty much lived in filth, were fucked up out of their minds, and the baby(s) were lucky if they got their diaper changed once a day. So yea John as a pedo-creeper? I can believe it.
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