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jezebelacious
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
AWESOME NEWS!

And it's huge huge huge in that it'll give a lot of credence to groups working to end the practice not just in Uganda but elsewhere in Africa. And so much of that work is talking to one person at a time.

Case in point (happy story): when I was a Grad. School Admissions Counselor, I met with a prospective student from Mali who was mayor of his commune (county, province, etc) and a pretty young dude, I think only 28. He gave great reasons for wanting to get a US degree, partially to work to end FGM/FGC throughout Mali, as he had just gotten it banned in his entire commune, and had been working on it for almost a decade. Talking with, re-talking with, and educating people ("especially the grannies" he said) about what it really does and means.

An incredibly inspiring guy, he made ME cry while I was interviewing HIM :).
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A Small Turnip
07/08/09

@jezebelacious: This is such a great story. I'm SO glad you told it. Thank you, and thank you to that awesomely progressive dude. It's so much more powerful when the motivations for cultural change come from within communities, rather than well-meaning outsiders. I really hope he and his compatriots get all the help and support they need to help Mali shrug off the shackles of FGM.
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CherriSpryte
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
Yay for Uganda! I have high hopes that this will be effective. Uganda is one of the success stories in terms of decreasing HIV/AIDS rates - which involved changing mentalities and cultural practices. Because that was successful, I really really hope that outlawing this practice - along with increased education of WHY it's abhorrent and should be stopped - will actually reduce the percentage of girls who undergo FGM.
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Katxyz
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
I've heard that in some places, promoting ceremonial circumcision where girls just receive a small (small enough to heal) cut that doesn't remove anything or do permanent damage can be effective in reducing more severe types of circumcision and FGM, but I haven't seen any studies. Some places just do those less invasive forms of circumcision anyway. Has anyone else heard of this/know where I can find more info on places where this has been done?

It does seem like giving people a symbolic alternative helps answer the cultural question while still preventing severe damage for girls.
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
07/07/09

@Katxyz: There are subtypes of female genital cutting, and the kinds practiced vary greatly based on geography. Here's a good primer on the subtypes: [www.who.int]

(this page has a link to a much more detailed pdf -- it's a report put out by the WHO last year)

I don't know if there have been public health campaigns to switch to the less damaging types that just involve small cuts or pricks, but I do know that this is traditionally practiced in some countries, and yet still falls under the heading of FGM.
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Katxyz
07/07/09

@thesciencegirl:

Yes, I know about the different types, but I clearly recall a public health campaign of that type. I also thought part of the debate was moving away from calling the non invasive types FGM, so that they would be practiced instead. Faulty memory...
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
07/07/09

@Katxyz: Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I'm not sure where that might have been.
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
I'm curious to see how this plays out in reality. It is difficult to police, and I expect it will continue despite its illegality. Since Egypt banned female genital cutting in 2007 (prevalence there is ~95%), it has been reported that no one has been prosecuted under this law.
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colormeroutine
07/07/09

@thesciencegirl: Well, there is a possibility (or at least I very much hope there is) that since so much of the cultural importance of FMG comes from it's publicity (as part of coming-of-age rites, people knowing who exactly has and has not had it and their subsequent "desirability" as a wife) that simply having to be less open and public about it might inherently devalue the practice?
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Lucille van Pelt
07/07/09

@thesciencegirl: i think it speaks to the culture of women not being allowed to speak up against men more then anything. Look at rape in a lot of the cultures where genital mutilation is common. It is either ignored (assumed to be part of life) or blamed on the woman. Until women are empowered to speak up against men, no matter what the law, attrocities like this will still exist.
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
07/07/09

@Lucille van Pelt: Surveys of women in Egypt show that the majority of them (72%, I remember reading) claim to support FGM. That says a lot to me about how ingrained this practice is. I have a med school classmate who did a public health project in Egypt, and she interviewed women there, and many of them said that they wanted to continue the practice, but upon further questioning, they also mentioned that they had negative memories of their own FGM experiences, and that they knew that their daughters had to have it done in order to be eligible for marriage. This is definitely an instance when men acting as allies could make a huge difference.
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morninggloria
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
It seems like such a long battle has been fought to get a bunch of people to agree that it is bad to unnecessarily cut up the genitals of little girls in a way that endangers them and puts their future health at risk.

I mean for the fuck of shit. This is good news but I cannot believe how long it has taken.
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Cole23
07/07/09

@morninggloria: Rewriting/reprimanding a cultural tradition is very, very hard. When studying anthropology, we learned that cultural practices were more difficult to change than religious practices because they have had a longer hold over the people. It's a shame, but this is a very, very good first step. Yah!
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morninggloria
07/07/09

@Cole23: You speak truth. It's difficult to have patience with the infuriatingly slow speed of cultural progress.
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amowls
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
I guess the utility argument beats the CRUELTY argument.
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colormeroutine
07/07/09

@amowls: As a person with largely utilitarian viewpoints myself, I don't really give a shit why they make the law, so long as they do
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Liz11685
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
I hate to put on my anthropology glasses here. It WAS cultural, but the culture has evolved- practices like these develop because there is some use for them in the culture. Honestly I have no idea what it could be and I find it a completely appalling practice, but I strive to be culturally relevant in looking at these things.

And for those who mentioned circumcision? That too developed because it helps keep the penis clean and the foreskin can trap dirt, debris and infection. There was and still is a good reason to circumcise and the few cases where it goes wrong is no reason to stop a practice that has been beneficial for years.
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amowls
07/07/09

@Lz11685: ctlly stds hv shwn tht ml crcmcsn s prtty pntlss. dn't pln t crcmcs my kds (bcs f th pntlssnss nd t ctlly csts mny!).
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Edited at 07/07/09 1:17 PM amowls was starred amowls was unstarred

Megan
07/07/09

@amowls: Unless you are talking about your daughters, please desist discussing a unrelated topic.
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BinderClip
07/07/09

@Megan: ok, Megan. I assume there's some history here b/c otherwise calling this a threadjack seems a little harsh.
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Megan
07/07/09

@BinderClip, @Cole23: A post about FGM in Africa is neither the time nor the place to re-invoke what is now a more-than-year-old comment debate about the appropriateness of male circumcision in the developed world. It's insensitive the women who are subjected to FGM, and it is an attempt to de-elevate the issues of FGM in the developing world by making it about a developed world political debate and about men. It-- and those commenters -- have been the subject of warnings before and I'm tired of it.
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Ailanthus-altissima
07/07/09

@Liz11685: Back to cultural evolution: do you have any insight into how FGM came about?

I am not particularly up to date on this, though I remember a recent NPR piece where an American woman with ties to Africe (I am sorry but I forget which nation) chose to undergo FGM to bring her closer to the culture. This move horrified many women (again of that nation whose name I've forgotten) who were actively crusading against it. It's strange that something so horrific would be actively chosen by someone seeking connection to a culture.
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tscheese
07/07/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: This is a good point, and I'm glad you brought this topic back - cultural evolution. How in the world did anyone decide that it would be a good idea to ruin womens' genitals--removing all pleasure from sex, causing infections, causing difficulty in childbirth, etc?

I assume, as I unfortunately assume with many things, that it began when men wanted to keep women subdued, and no one challenged it for a long time because the victims were powerless, and it got ingrained into these cultures. But I'm woefully uninformed on these things.
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Liz11685
07/07/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: @tscheese: I don't really have much information on the topic, even my most open and controversial professors wouldn't really talk about it much (and I'm guessing few people have dared been published on the topic) but tscheese, I think you hit the nail on the head. My guess is that it is stemming from men wanting to be sure that the children they are raising are theirs. This makes a lot of cultural sense, but the practice no longer does. Another one of my theories is that the practice has also evolved to a point where it no longer benefits the culture and that is why it is so horrific and appalling to us.
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CherriSpryte
07/07/09

@Ailanthus-altissima: @tscheese: It has to do with ensuring virginity, and the subsequent property and inheritance rights. (Note: I'm using generalizations, and I know these things vary from region to region, I'm just trying to give an overview.)
Some of the justification is this: FGM removes sexual pleasure for women, so there's no motivator for women to lose their virginity before they're married - therefore, a man can be sure that his wife's children are his.
Women who haven't been cut are thought to be unpure and unclean, as it is impossible to ensure their virginity.
There are schools of thought that hold that a woman isn't really female until the clitoris is removed, as that is a "male" part of the body - hence some of the coming-of-age aspects of the procedure.

Basically, its the worldwide obsession with virginity manifested in the worst way possible.
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CherriSpryte
07/07/09

@CherriSpryte: Ehrm, in case people aren't familiar with my other comments on this topic, my comment above shouldn't be taken as support for FGM. I just tried to outline the justifications I've read.
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ninles
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
Wll, myb gnd cn tch prts f mrc lssn rgrdng gntls, bdy prts nd hw sfl thy r. Gntl mtltn s ls lv nd wll n mrc whn t cms t mn, nd t s hds prctc whthr t's cnsdrd cltrl hbt r hbt f th msnfrmd. Ths nds t stp fr bth mn nd wmn.
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Edited at 07/07/09 1:17 PM ninles was starred ninles was unstarred

Zombie Ms. Skittles
07/07/09

@ninles: Just a fair warning, I suspect you may get some people disagreeing with you in a few minutes.
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Cole23
07/07/09

@nnls: Hw s ml crcmcsn dngrs? Cnsdrd gntl mtltn? m crs bt yr rsnng. Pls xpln hw y cmpr th tw.
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lilad
07/07/09

@Zmb MssSkttls s nt yr knd f ldy: Tht's rght t's jst prt f th mrcn cltr.

:/
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Edited at 07/07/09 1:18 PM lilad was starred lilad was unstarred

Megan
07/07/09

@Cole23: Do not feed this threadjack, I am really serious.
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Cole23
07/07/09

@Megan: I understand your post, but seriously, try to be a little nicer. I was not intentionally "threadjacking". Someone wrote a post that I found to be interesting and I wanted to know why she felt the way that she did. I concur that it is important to stay on topic, especially considering the seriousness of FGM, but please, don't get sassy with me. It is inappropriate.
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thesciencegirl wields the truth like a mighty axe.
07/07/09

@Cole23: You know what I find inappropriate? The fact that half of the threads on this post about female genital cutting are about male circumcision. I can understand Megan's frustration.
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richcreamerybutter
07/07/09

@Cole23: I could only decipher the last sentence of Ninles's post, and I happen to agree. FGN is vile for obvious reasons. Threadjacking in general is uncool, but I don't think bringing up the other mutilation is inappropriate, given that all recipients don't have a say in the matter. It's ridiculous that we have to tiptoe around this subject.
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Cole23
07/07/09

@thscncgrl: Grt. Nw yr ff-tpc. Stck t th trcts f FGM. Ths thrd s nt fr ffrng xcss fr smn ls's bhvr. Mgn's rght, bt sh cld hv bn lss ctty. Dn't bthr rspndng. Sv th thrd fr wht t rlly nds t b bt.
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Edited at 07/07/09 2:15 PM Cole23 was starred Cole23 was unstarred

hortense
07/07/09

@Cole23: That's really unnecessary.
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tiredfairy
07/07/09

@richcreamerybutter: It is when the specific topic at hand is about women. Save it for the discussions about male circumcision, which do in fact come up.

As this is Megan and the other's site, they have every right to decide this sort of thing is threadjacking and to enforce it.

The problem is that in discussions of women's, poc's, and other minority groups...discussions of men, whites, etc. is inappropriate. Because it's co-opting the discussion. It's that simple.

Male circumcision may be a valid topic, when the OP is about it. But not now.
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Megan
07/07/09

@tiredfairy: The problem is that in discussions of women's, poc's, and other minority groups...discussions of men, whites, etc. is inappropriate. Because it's co-opting the discussion. It's that simple.

Thank you for saying this, as I tried to above as well. The issues facing women of color in developing countries shouldn't be viewed strictly as an "in" for discussing issues facing white men in the developed world.
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Lymed
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
This is fabulous news. May the government figure out a way to enforce it.

On a downer note, does this make it harder for women trying to get asylum if the practice continues anyway and they are trying to escape mutilation?
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greenglass
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
S whn r w gng t bn ml crcmcsn? N prt f th hmn bdy s slss, rght?
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colormeroutine
07/07/09

@greenglass: comparing the two is like comparing having a child's ears pierced to removing both ears
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SunburnedCounsel
07/07/09

@greenglass: every fucking time.
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Megan
07/07/09

@greenglass, @ninles: This stops here and now. This is threadjacking, and I'm sick of it. FGM is a practice in Uganda that causes women pain, suffering, death; increases maternal mortality; increases their chances of contracting AIDS; and denies them the possibility of sexual pleasure.

Your political positions on male circumcision can and will remain confined to those threads discussing that topic. Period.
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lilad
07/07/09

@Mgn: n bdy prts r slss, n bdy prts r slss , n bdy prts r slss
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Megan
07/07/09

@lilad: A political theory belied by the existence of wisdom teeth, appendices and tonsils.
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RainbowBrite
07/07/09

@colormeroutine: Bear in mind that there are different kinds of FGM. Removing or nicking the clitoral hood could be comparable to male circumcision. Infibulation, which is what most people think of when they think of FGM, isn't the only kind, and in many countries/regions, it's not common. But to your point, yeah, circumcision and infublation are really not comparable at all.
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SylvanSylph
07/07/09

@Megan: Some body parts are less not useless than others, my clitoris being the least not useless with the possible exception of my brain, depending on the day and the weather and how much alcohol I have consumed.
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hortense
07/07/09

@Everyone: Disemvoweling for threadjacks. Enough already.
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SylvanSylph
07/07/09

@SylvanSylph: Obviously.
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mbprice
07/07/09

@hortense: Hortense, I think it's pretty awful that you're practicing Female Vowel Mutilation. No letters are useless.
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LadySoprano is a Fat-Fighting Superwoman
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
Yay for progress! One small step at a time.

Maybe it will be hard to enforce, but hopefully the government will do something to educate its citizens about why FGM is useless and actually harmful.
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Zombie Ms. Skittles
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
Ahhh holy crap. I clicked on the link and they showed a picture of the knife used and now my legs bolted shut.
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Lymed
07/07/09

@Zombie MissSkittles is not your kind of lady: Thanks for that warning. I had that reaction re-watching the Pilot of Mad Men when I saw a speculum, I don't need to see the knife.
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HistoricUpstart
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
"It's just part of our culture" has got to be one of the ABSOLUTE WORST excuses for violence in the history of the world. Nice try, but no. Good for President Museveni!
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dianersb was bit by a zombie
07/07/09

In reply to Uganda To Ban FGM, Fight Argument That It's "Cultural"
Wow. Great news from Uganda. This is awesome.

One question though, how will this be policed?
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
02/10/09

In reply to Hindu Group Attacks Women, Denounces Valentine's Day
And this is why feminism is still relevant, Ms. Clarkson.
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