Oh good grief. Liz Jones is such a fucking crackpot, it depresses me that she is able to make a living out of expressing such drivel. Still, I suppose we have Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin over here.
Although, it is disingenuous to assume the 'judging' only goes one way - in more fundamental Islamic communities, women who don't cover up are regarded as whores. As I know from my experience of living just off Edgware Road in London, where I would get heckled by men while wearing jeans and a crew-neck T-shirt. Each to her own, and burqas/headscarves should not be outlawed, but I can't help resenting the kind of institutional sexism it legitimizes.
I just came back from seeing the movie "Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi. Don't waste your time on this twit Liz Jones. See this movie. Oh, and read "Reading Lolita in Teheran".
Its funny to be an atheist and view this discussion. The women who "like" wearing the burqua (or any female shame-textile) are merely the victims of the much subtler, much more pervasive, much more evil oppression. They are the victims of hedgemony. They have internalized the values of others. They are unaware that they didn't /chose/ to wear a burqua because mom an and because its a tradition. They were TAUGHT to wear it. Just as I was taught to not go outside naked, they were taught to not go outside with any skin exposed at all. Its al a cultural construct.
Given that, we are only left to consider the ramifications. I do not see a woman in a burqua getting elected to political office. How could she campaign if no one saw her face? The shame-textile is part of the whole sexist hedgemony. The women in these cultures CAN NEVER be equal until they start acting equal.
Too much respect for your body? Why do women's bodies deserve so much more "respect" than mens? Did The Prophet wear a hijab? Was he disrepectful of his body?
Its not about respect. Its about covering yourself because you might tempt a man. The men have made it YOUR fault for their sexual urges. You are the scapegoat!
@SterlingFerret: Yes, burqas and niqabs do seem to obliterate identity, because we use the face as such an important landmark. (I am not talking in any way about headscarves or other forms of covering that reveal the face) However, calling any religious garment worn by a woman a "shame-textile", especially those that do not obliterate the usual identifying markers of a person, and finding the opinions of the religious "funny" seems to indicate a fundamental unwillingness to actually listen to those who do have a different opinion than you. And that's no the fault of those who have a different opinion than you. And that's the problem Ms. Jones has: she seems to assume her opinions are the objective ones without really examining them.
A woman can choose to wear a niqab or burqa out of choice; talk to those who have converted. The fact that *I* find them to be a cover-up of identity, because of the culture *I* was raised in, does not mean that *my* opinion is the superior one, or the correct one, or the objective one.
@SterlingFerret: When I want to see hegemony, I just look around me to find the nearest woman wearing high heels, a short skirt, or face-obscuring makeup.
Understanding how covering one's body can be an expression of self-respect requires one to first see the women who do so as active subjects, engaging with the world in a way that contributes to the development of themselves as people of faith. Your comment suggests you see them only as passive objects, until such time as they live and dress as you command them. Feminism FAIL.
@Dancingfrog: I would disagree slightly and say that anyone who has actually "really examined" her opinions and formed an objective view of the world would (and should) "find the opinions of the religious 'funny.'" (Well, maybe not funny, but certainly absurd.)
I wish feminists would stop taking the viewpoint that the burqua is not oppressive if a Muslim woman chooses to wear it of her own free will. Some Muslim women may opt to wear it, but from my viewpoint, it is still a tool used to make women literally invisible in society. I find that disturbing.
@Cherry Blossom Girl: I'm west African in the US who is legally forced to cover my breasts in public. Is my Charlotte Russ blouse a tool used to make me invisible?
@marciax3: FWIW, I also find it oppressive when cultures encourage or require covering only women -- and, as a born-and-raised American, I also find it insulting that men but not women are legally allowed to bare their chests in public. Frankly, and I've said this here before, I think it would do a lot toward the overall desexualization of women's breasts if we were allowed to bare them as cavalierly as men are allowed to show off their pecs in public.
@Cherry Blossom Girl: I'm sorry. But that's unfair. Where do you draw the line. Because everything, in this misogynistic world, is symbolic of oppression. That bra. That shirt. Those strappy heals. That hair dye. That hair lye. It's all oppressive. And unless you are willing to label the choice of a woman to wear heels, or relax her hair, or wear a bra, your comment evinces an inherent close mindedness to an Islamic woman's decision to wear this clothing. And that speaks to your opinion about Islam more than feminism.
Didn't Anthony Bourdain meet with an awesome chick in India who lived over there for work and wore a burka part of the time and regular clothes the rest? I thought she had some really interesting things to say in regards to the burka and the customs and why she wears it.
Can anyone find that youtube clip?
"And so, I wore a Burqa."
"YOU CAN READ MINDS?"
Next up, I hope Jones wears a fat suit and goes shopping. That would be really groundbreaking and brave ;)
hey... i thought this thread was interesting...
i'm a muslim and i've been wearing the hijab for as long as i can remember (13yrs)... after wearing it nonstop for 2 years here in the US i decided lately to try and go out without it... it was weird at first... no one knew that i'm missing my second skin... but for the first time i actually became invisible... i didn't get any stares or weird nudges... i didn't get random ppl asking be about marrying my cousins or 73 virgins in heaving (wtf?)... and yet i wasn't comfortable having unveiled myself and i wasn't exactly "liberated"... i might've looked like a "normal" person but i was thinking at least before i made them think... now i'm just background"... it was a very weird feeling... invisibility is very relative to the culture you're in... while some wear it because its religious... i just continued wearing it out of habit...
now i understand how my claim can be filed under the "oppressed muslim woman finds liberation" but really we should look beyond that binary of opprsesion and liberation... the only reason i am telling my story here is because i know that my statement won't be overdetermined by judgmental stereotypes... it's really great reading your comments i love it!
@dillz: Thank you for coming to comment!
I have done somewhat the opposite experience. I lived in Egypt one summer and would occasionally wear the hijab if I were visiting mosques or just wanted to be less conspicuous. It seemed weird and hot to wear it, not being religious. But I noticed there was a certain expectation of how a woman should behave if she is wearing it.
So it's all in where you are and your expectations. I hope I'm not taking away from your comment, I just wanted to share the reverse idea.
It seems like a big part of the way in which she is missing the point is focusing on "comfort." Like, Liz Jones is uncomfortable in a burka, ergo all women must be uncomfortable in a burka, ergo, no one would wear one unless they were forced.
Today my feet are killing me because I walked around in strappy four inch heels all day yesterday. They were not comfortable. My friend wriggled into a pair of skinny jeans last weekend, so tight they split while she was out-- not comfortable before or after split, obviously. But there was no force behind those decisions, other than general cultural cues about what is cute or appropriate or feminine. My concern is that for some women, not just middle eastern women, the level of force goes beyond general cultural cues and into them realm of actual threat-- if they do not dress a certain way, they will risk experiencing physical violence or economic or social sanction. What needs to be focused are the infrastructures that allow that sort of coercion, not the dress itself. But of course, in order to identify whether this was an issue, and if so how to address is, Liz Jones would have had to, you know, actually speak to muslim women, as opposed to pitying them from afar.
Sudanese women don't wear burqas. They wear towbs, which look like the saris that Indian women wear. So even her "inspiration" was a failure.
And seriously? This lady covered her face for a week and thinks that gives her the authority to pass judgment on 1 billion Muslims around the world? I can't even begin to understand the level of arrogance that requires.
hey... i thought this thread was interesting...
i'm a muslim and i've been wearing the hijab for as long as i can remember (13yrs)... after wearing it nonstop for 2 years here in the US i decided lately to try and go out without it... it was weird at first... no one knew that i'm missing my second skin... but for the first time i actually became invisible... i didn't get any stares or weird nudges... i didn't get random ppl asking be about marrying my cousins or 73 virgins in heaving (wtf?)... and yet i wasn't comfortable having unveiled myself and i wasn't exactly "liberated"... i might've looked like a "normal" person but i was thinking at least before i made them think... now i'm just background"... it was a very weird feeling... invisibility is very relative to the culture you're in... while some wear it because its religious... i just continued wearing it out of habit...
now i understand how my claim can be filed under the "oppressed muslim woman finds liberation" but really we should look beyond that binary of opprsesion and liberation... the only reason i am telling my story here is because i know that my statement won't be overdetermined by judgmental stereotypes... it's really great reading your comments i love it!
I'm an academic and every convocation when we wear the academic robes I wish they could be brought back as mandatory campus attire. I'd love not having to think too much about what to wear under it, and always looking professional without having to try.
I wonder if there is a similar advantage perceived by women who like wearing the burqa. Besides the religious and cultural reasons of course.
@Cellotape: I'm also an academic, and always love the opportunity to wear the gown. How one feels about clothing that has a specific cultural overlay, always is interesting to me. There is much baggage that comes with a bathing suit, an academic gown, a wedding dress... We can hardly sum this baggage in such an abbreviated experiment. Obviously.
I wonder if the opposite ever happens? If a Muslim woman comes here "under cover" and walks around in short-shorts and tube tops and then reports back about how she got cat-called at? What would she say about our culture? The men over-sexualize the women? Women here have no respect for their bodies-putting themsleves on display for anyone to see? I mean, really...I wonder what the conclusion would be...and would it be any more or less valid than the vomit above?
08/12/09
YES!!! EXACTLY!!!
Sadie. We are not worthy.
08/11/09
08/11/09
Although, it is disingenuous to assume the 'judging' only goes one way - in more fundamental Islamic communities, women who don't cover up are regarded as whores. As I know from my experience of living just off Edgware Road in London, where I would get heckled by men while wearing jeans and a crew-neck T-shirt. Each to her own, and burqas/headscarves should not be outlawed, but I can't help resenting the kind of institutional sexism it legitimizes.
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
Given that, we are only left to consider the ramifications. I do not see a woman in a burqua getting elected to political office. How could she campaign if no one saw her face? The shame-textile is part of the whole sexist hedgemony. The women in these cultures CAN NEVER be equal until they start acting equal.
Too much respect for your body? Why do women's bodies deserve so much more "respect" than mens? Did The Prophet wear a hijab? Was he disrepectful of his body?
Its not about respect. Its about covering yourself because you might tempt a man. The men have made it YOUR fault for their sexual urges. You are the scapegoat!
08/11/09
A woman can choose to wear a niqab or burqa out of choice; talk to those who have converted. The fact that *I* find them to be a cover-up of identity, because of the culture *I* was raised in, does not mean that *my* opinion is the superior one, or the correct one, or the objective one.
08/12/09
Understanding how covering one's body can be an expression of self-respect requires one to first see the women who do so as active subjects, engaging with the world in a way that contributes to the development of themselves as people of faith. Your comment suggests you see them only as passive objects, until such time as they live and dress as you command them. Feminism FAIL.
08/12/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
Can anyone find that youtube clip?
08/11/09
08/11/09
"YOU CAN READ MINDS?"
Next up, I hope Jones wears a fat suit and goes shopping. That would be really groundbreaking and brave ;)
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
i'm a muslim and i've been wearing the hijab for as long as i can remember (13yrs)... after wearing it nonstop for 2 years here in the US i decided lately to try and go out without it... it was weird at first... no one knew that i'm missing my second skin... but for the first time i actually became invisible... i didn't get any stares or weird nudges... i didn't get random ppl asking be about marrying my cousins or 73 virgins in heaving (wtf?)... and yet i wasn't comfortable having unveiled myself and i wasn't exactly "liberated"... i might've looked like a "normal" person but i was thinking at least before i made them think... now i'm just background"... it was a very weird feeling... invisibility is very relative to the culture you're in... while some wear it because its religious... i just continued wearing it out of habit...
now i understand how my claim can be filed under the "oppressed muslim woman finds liberation" but really we should look beyond that binary of opprsesion and liberation... the only reason i am telling my story here is because i know that my statement won't be overdetermined by judgmental stereotypes... it's really great reading your comments i love it!
08/11/09
I have done somewhat the opposite experience. I lived in Egypt one summer and would occasionally wear the hijab if I were visiting mosques or just wanted to be less conspicuous. It seemed weird and hot to wear it, not being religious. But I noticed there was a certain expectation of how a woman should behave if she is wearing it.
So it's all in where you are and your expectations. I hope I'm not taking away from your comment, I just wanted to share the reverse idea.
08/11/09
Today my feet are killing me because I walked around in strappy four inch heels all day yesterday. They were not comfortable. My friend wriggled into a pair of skinny jeans last weekend, so tight they split while she was out-- not comfortable before or after split, obviously. But there was no force behind those decisions, other than general cultural cues about what is cute or appropriate or feminine. My concern is that for some women, not just middle eastern women, the level of force goes beyond general cultural cues and into them realm of actual threat-- if they do not dress a certain way, they will risk experiencing physical violence or economic or social sanction. What needs to be focused are the infrastructures that allow that sort of coercion, not the dress itself. But of course, in order to identify whether this was an issue, and if so how to address is, Liz Jones would have had to, you know, actually speak to muslim women, as opposed to pitying them from afar.
08/11/09
And seriously? This lady covered her face for a week and thinks that gives her the authority to pass judgment on 1 billion Muslims around the world? I can't even begin to understand the level of arrogance that requires.
08/11/09
i'm a muslim and i've been wearing the hijab for as long as i can remember (13yrs)... after wearing it nonstop for 2 years here in the US i decided lately to try and go out without it... it was weird at first... no one knew that i'm missing my second skin... but for the first time i actually became invisible... i didn't get any stares or weird nudges... i didn't get random ppl asking be about marrying my cousins or 73 virgins in heaving (wtf?)... and yet i wasn't comfortable having unveiled myself and i wasn't exactly "liberated"... i might've looked like a "normal" person but i was thinking at least before i made them think... now i'm just background"... it was a very weird feeling... invisibility is very relative to the culture you're in... while some wear it because its religious... i just continued wearing it out of habit...
now i understand how my claim can be filed under the "oppressed muslim woman finds liberation" but really we should look beyond that binary of opprsesion and liberation... the only reason i am telling my story here is because i know that my statement won't be overdetermined by judgmental stereotypes... it's really great reading your comments i love it!
08/11/09
08/11/09
I wonder if there is a similar advantage perceived by women who like wearing the burqa. Besides the religious and cultural reasons of course.
08/12/09
08/11/09
08/11/09
08/11/09