See, in a weird way, I think the media covers this up so it doesn't generalize them into "others". Honestly, if you saw hours of people killing their own people for reasons like religion, would you view them the same way? Majority of Americans already have a poor mentality when looking at the Middle East, and generalized view of Muslims and Islam, do we need to add fuel to the fire? Obviously, we can not show the tragedies as they unfold unless we have camera crews there, but I do believe that people are getting enough sense of the horror in Mumbai and the horror that was 9/11, with the repetition that our media has. Imagine a repetitive media with true carnage footage and we would all be jumping out of windows.
@ArtfulSlingerBARACKED THE VOTE: I think , in the end, it doesn't matter. Show it, don't show it. Look at the kinds of video games some of our kids play today. Violence is becoming endemic to global society, as if it's a given that someone, somewhere in the world is angry and is going to try and kill people. I think we would be horrified if we saw the actual shattered bodies, but I also think eventually it would mean very little. I stand by my original supposition that because it's happening "over there," it carries little moral outrage with us, which is why people are not clamoring to see the bodies on TV.
Put another way: if the blood and gore were shown, there would be plenty of people complaining about it being shown. If it isn't, we have plenty of people complaining that it isn't. There's no happy medium when it comes to this.
@NefariousNewt: Agreed. I think that over there means much different things when those "over there" are of a darker skin color too. Violence is a terrifying thing in our country and honestly, as a NYC resident, I am still flabbergasted by the shit I see.
What I think needs to be expressed in discussing these stories within the media is "how" these groups are becoming stronger and angrier by the day. I don't want excuses, but I think people really need to understand that this is way more than a few bad apples within the Muslim religion. This is a way of life for many people in the Middle East, terrified of attacks on a daily basis, something America will never truly understand, so pictures might not assist in it either. But I think the UN and whomever else needs to start discussing what the hell this world is doing to stop these types of attacks.
@ArtfulSlingerBARACKED THE VOTE: Also, expecting Americans to care about people being murdered thousands of miles away from them is hard since they can't give a shit about those in their own country.
My friend is in the Teach for America program and is currently working in the 9th ward. Her children - ages 11 and 12 - have FACIAL TATTOOS, ARE PREGNANT and ARE DROPPING OUT TO JOIN GANGS and GET JOBS. As we sit by and watch that shit happen, how can we be expected to care about a few Indians across the world? (*sarcasm*)
MEGAN: We aren't engaged because people have short memories. Every place is fucked up. And the solutions are not easy solutions. People gave money, and it didn't get better.
LATOYA: And that mindset is part of the reason why it is hard to motivate people to take action and to protest.
But also, people feel powerless. More people have protested against this war than all the glorified hippies did for Vietnam, but here we are. This administration was able to get away with so much because people feel powerless. We fight for right and live decently, and in the end we still have nothing to show for it. Many of us cannot be called complacent. The news has been bought and is the loudspeaker for the corporate interest. And when a news story is without an agenda, the Times goes and writes about a mother not buying her designer jeans so that she can buy her kid a mountain of toys - and that's supposed to mirror the nation's current experience?
We have short memories because we wouldn't be able to get through each day without them.
@the_decider: It is so much easier to focus on the surface - expensive jeans = toys for tots - and not on why we are so addicted to buying. The perils of capitalism are only now coming to light and who is getting blamed and who is getting bailed out? Not the same people, if you look at it. Imagine if all the tvs in the country went dark and people had to talk to each other! Imagine if they had to find out information from other sources than Fox! Damn, even reading Jezebel would be an improvement for the majority of this country!
I still don't know how I feel about the violence-in-the-media debate. I do think Americans need to see more violence in general and have it not be a big deal, but I don't think we need to go overboard.
But the problem is really that as long as many Americans don't see violence on their streets, they will fetishize violence. The middle/ruling class here is pretty insular, and that's where the fetishization of violence comes from.
In Israel, for example, no one is shielded from violence since all our "wars" are 5 miles away, and everyone has to serve in the (very active) army. So violence isn't fetishized at all.
Part of these problems don't just stem from the media, but from the landscape of a country. Americans are allowed to live in a lala land where they don't see violence occurring. The problem isn't to let Americans see more violence on TV, but to see it in real life by integrating more parts of society. I'm not saying we need a draft, but maybe mandatory civil service?
All the news outlets are talking about Obama's apparent policy shift in choosing a national security team that's more hawkish than the candidate Obama. I think that he got a clearer picture of potential threats against the U.S. in his security briefing and now thinks he needs to be more aggressive, security-wise.
@Dottie Gale: nqwww i really don't think Obama was previously laboring under the illusion that we lived in a safe world. He picked who he picked for continuity and competence. Obama was ever a centrist, sad to say.
@Dottie Gale: That's why I voted for him. He's going to do what's right for the country, not what's popular. He wants the troops out of Iraq in 16 months, but he's also smart enough to know that if he starts to do that, there may be unintended consequences. He's put together a team that can be as tough as necessary, and I think that's more for issues like relations with Russia and Iran, than it is for Afghanistan and Iraq.
@Dottie Gale: there s also a theory that, strong a President as he is, he is also going to use these hawk-y picks to do some dove-ish stuff on the sly. I don't agree with the version of this observation that says he'll be a total dove, but I'll take what I can get on this front.
Also, it's been pointed out that many of these picks are serious advocates of refocusing foreign policy towards diplomacy and away from sheer, unmitigated military buildup. About fucking time.
@Dottie Gale: There are also advantages to putting people that you don't necessarily agree with in positions like that. It ensures maximum perspective.
Like in the episode of House, when he was choosing a new team and he had to let that one guy go, even though the guy was really smart: it was because he kept thinking of the same things that House did.
@PilgrimSoul: About fucking time is right. On a related note, I remember being gleeful when during a debate Obama mentioned doubling the peace corps while he's president. What a refreshing thing to do, foreign policy-wise.
@NefariousNewt: The Iraq withdrawl is virtually out of the US's hands now, unless we want to disobey the Status of Forces Agreement the Iraqi parliament passed. Whether we like it or not, they've made up their mind.
@J.D.Regent: Yes, he's always been a centrist, but I never thought Hilary was as hawkish as she claimed to be. I think she felt she had to be in order to not appear a weak woman. I mean, if she listened to Mark Penn, and it seems she did, this isn't a far-fetched belief.
@demordie: I would also like to see him change some of the goals of the Peace Corps to make it more practical for today's world; mainly, bringing in more people with applicable skill sets so that the native countries can benefit more tangibly and it is not only about having American representation abroad or doing English-language education in areas where speaking English is hardly necessary or practical.
I think they should also have some more flaxibility in their programs, so that those econ micro-credit PhD students and engineers can go work on a project for say, 1.5 years instead of the 2 years 3 months it is now; the amount of time required is really off-putting to a lot of more educated people,and older people, and encourages more applicants that "don't know what they want to do with their lives" making the experience more about the volunteer than the hosting country.
A WMD attack is imminent. Oh, BTW, did everyone realize we are in a recession? Honestly, when are we going to stop believing the talking heads?
1) You cannot predict something like this. The terrorists will work on their own timetable. They will attack with little warning, in a place you are not anticipating, in a way you have not planned for.
2) Nuclear and biological material is too hard to work with. You'll note that terrorists seem to be doing just fine with bombs, guns, and flying planes into things, all things readily available and cheap.
3) This is the continuation of the Bush Administration's fear campaign. They've only got a little time left to spread a little more unfounded, abject fear before they go.
I'm not sure why we're so flipped out about terrorists getting their hands on biological weapons. I mean, it's terrifying, yeah, poison gas, mustard gas, anthrax, whatever.
But you can still buy fertilizer and black powder at hardware stores. Part of the reason why no serious nation ever really challenged the conventions against chemical warfare is because it's not very good at warfare. Conventional explosive are much, much more effective at killing people.
A concentrated, coordinated effort by terrorists using crap they found at Lowe's could cripple Manhattan, and they wouldn't even have to commit suicide to do it.
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: I just think it's crazy: no major terrorist attack in the world has been committed with nuclear suitcase bombs. I'm not even sure there's any science showing that you can build a suitcase bomb.
There've been a handful of attacks with poison gas, and the Anthrax attacks, but these are notable for their extremely low body counts.
I don't know. This reminds me of the thing in Iraq where the Army was sent in to military bases to secure the (imaginary) WMDs--and consequently left all the fucking conventional explosives unsecured. Explosive which, subsequently, disappeared, and have been used in every IED in Iraq ever since.
@braak: But, see, this isn't really about safety. This is about pitting countries and regions against each other. Using "high-fallutin" words and describing shit from science fiction proves that.
I dunno. I am just as frightened for a bunch of sickos with a lot of ammo & guns blasting away at citizens. Wait, didn't that just happpen?
@braak: If you'd like, I can draw you the plans for one. You can most certainly build a suitcase nuke -- the U.S. Army was able to create nuclear artillery shells, and they had to withstand the force of being fired from a cannon, and still be compact enough to be handled by only a couple of men.
@NefariousNewt: Well, okay. But whatever--I can show you plans for how you could cause complete civil collapse on the island of Manhattan for less than ten grand.
Excessive power is unnecessary when you've got precision. That's why nuclear weapons were retarded in the first place.
@rosasparks: Well, right, I know. I just wish people would start thinking rationally about their safety, instead of ceding control to their limbic systems.
The fact is, exacting calculation is far more detrimental than just blowing something to smithereens for miles.
Nuclear weapons are not about actual war. It's about threatening people and creating a boogeyman. The fact that everyone continues to freak out about it is proof it still works.
@braak: I know. But, when I hear about threats & so forth? I get frightened. Not because I think the Boogeyman is going to come & blow the Eastern Seaboard out to sea.
I take it seriously enough to think that someone will probably want to, maybe, walk into a building & blow everyone way. And maybe coordinate that with several cities, and shoot all those people, too.
@braak: Well, IED and car bombs are not exactly precision weapons, but I get your point. The fact is, the only way they'd be able to realistically use a nuke in this country is if they could build it here. Trying to get nuclear material from Pakistan to here involves too many risks of exposure.
"A game of one-upmanship between commenters on the Jezebel.com website today spiralled out of control, ending with both commenters being apprehended by the CIA as they were in the process of coordinating massive terrorist attacks, simply to prove points made in what started as an innocent internet debate.
It is believed that Godwin's Law was not invoked this time."
@Eeva: "Reports are still sketchy, but one of them reportedly uses the name 'Hussein al-Barak,' and may have been recently considered for Barack Obama's cabinet as Secretary of Commerce."
LATOYA: Actually, we do. We can put restraints on the money we provide unless the country meets the conditions we set. This happened in Malawi. We told them that in order to get funding from us, they could not farm their own food. Analysts decided it was cheaper for Malawi to import food and sell other goods and services. This led to a massive food shortage for a few years. The government finally decided to defy the recommendations (at great risk - because that could mean the end of the money stream) and subsidized its farmers the way we do. And that ended the food crisis for two consecutive years.
That's what I mean by how we've forgotten how to do things. We add all these pre-conditions onto our aid now (you can have money for birth control, but only if you don't talk about abortion!) and force poor countries into very tight spots. They need something and we have them over a barrel -- do it our way or you get nothing. And this inevitably leads to corruption and graft, and resources being squandered or diverted.
This can't be the way it works. We have to step up, to give with open hands and open hearts. But we can't just keep blindly throwing money at countries and expecting them to make things work. If there's going to be a precondition on our aid, let it be that they have to let our people come in to help them set up their systems of agriculture, trade, health, etc., and they have to let us teach them what we can. And let's not go in there thinking we can whip their problems in a week -- if we go in, we must go in with open minds, see the picture as they see it, and honor their traditions. We have to learn to work together, if there is going to be true change.
@NefariousNewt: i'm pretty sure that's how those preconditions got started in the first place. Just let the World Bank and IMF structurally adjust you, and you can have all the loans you need...
@J.D.Regent: But there's a big difference between saying "let out people in to help you set things up" and "do it our way, or else." We can always back off on the requirement to have our people on the ground, but then we can also back off the amount of aid. And plus, I'm advocating ensuring we have people there to oversee the distribution of the aid and make sure it's put to its proper purpose. I'm not advocating telling them what they should believe or what they should mandate to their people. The Bush Administration has done a wonderful job peddling their conservative agenda overseas by taking advantage of poorer nations.
@J.D.Regent: "first, you have to subsidize huge corporate millionaires to set up factory farms with unsanitary conditions that occasionally result in serious e coli outbreaks. next, tax cuts for billionaires, because there is no trickle-down like the trickle-down provided by a healthy Coach bag economy..."
@NefariousNewt: That's because foreign aid has never been a priority in and of itself. It's always about OUR sales, and OUR exports. People should realize that US aid has never come from a place of charity, and always comes as a means to and end. The "end" being building US control throughout the world.
@PilgrimSoul: next, stop raising chickens in your backyard for subsistence farming and start eating this reasonably priced spam canned ham we fly in instead. finally, you now have to buy seed every year that you used to save from last year because Monsanto has engineered non-renewable traits into your cotton seeds. Enjoy your new prosperity.
@J.D.Regent: Yeah, the idea from preconditions started when the precondition was 'let your labour organize if they want to without fear of murder' or 'stop killing ethnicities that aren't the ruling party's'. I think that was the point of the preconditions in the first place. But we got so used to tying preconditions to giving money to states that we don't know how to do anything otherwise. I think Liddy Dole got Interstate Highway funds reliant upon states raising the drinking age to 21 back in the 90s as Red Cross director. Not sure how Louisiana pulls it off.
@aspiringexpatriate: It was before then- in the 80s. Mothers Against Drunk Driving lobbied heavily for the federal government to find a way to force the states to raise their drinking ages, and tying it to highway funding was about "making highways safer". Of course, now when we realize that the drinking age in this country is ridiculous we can't change it, because the states cannot afford to lose highway funding.
@RStewie: Yes, of course - the US will structure every loan so that the US benefits. Examine any SAP and you will see the preconditions that LaToya talks about. USAID specifically made policy to drive farmers off their land so that they would be easily controlled and cheap labor for businesses wanting to exploit the populace - see James Ridgeway on this.
Microfinance can be very effective. The idea of having a group of people being responsible for each other sounds very foreign to us here in the US, but is very normal in the rest of the world, one reason similar microfinance type programs do NOT work here in the heart of capitalism. In Haiti, FONKOZE has started another program to help the poorest of the poor, people who borrow less than $20- US, just to get them off their knees and begin to stand. I am sure that some groups might feel coerced by their members, but that is also bad training and management on the part of the lender. World wide - there are many more successful programs. It is popular now to talk about microfinance, but not all programs are truly the original model.
Shout out to LaToya - love the smarts!
And as far as violent imagery goes, I think there are some Greek urns and cave paintings we could look at. The US Civil War was almost the first time - the Crimean War was actually the first - that people could see photographic evidence of dead and maimed bodies in wide circulation. These images did bring the horror home in a way not possible before but did it shorten the war? Think of the amazing literature we have, too, "The Red Badge of Courage, "Johnny Got His Gun" "All Quiet on the Western Front" and scores of others. Yet, we still kill each other.
The strongest images of the Mumbai terrorist attacks were, for me, pictures of the attackers themselves. They're like, kids. Younger than me! That shit's fucked up.
@morninggloria: Are these kids kidnapped? Are they trained by their dads, are they the kids of those dead by all the civil warfare? Are most adult fighters dead?
Using kids to kill people has been common in some of these terrorist attacks. Meanwhile they and the suicide killers are sent to be killed while the true assholes hide in their comfy houses.
@SisterMaryMartha: Yeah, that gave me serious pause. I mean, it makes perfect sense. An attack in Mumbai can't be the only thing coming. I admit I am an glass-half-empty type, but still.
Sigh. I am sending cosmic hugs to minisparks.
ps don't drink that Starbucks crap! That stuff gives me a headache & ruins my stomach. blurg.
@rosasparks: 'tis the only option for work subsidized coffee. I can purchase teh bucks or those weird no-name brand coffees that mostly taste like water.
So now we're criticizing microcredit? Seriously? Do we only support things that have 100% success rates with no adverse consequences these days? I.E. a national program to force everyone to spend two hours a day looking at puppies?
I mean, honour and dignity are great, but there's no honour or dignity in being unable to feed yourself or your family either.
@PilgrimSoul: I agree. Microcredit can really expand the "world", so to speak, and connect us for positive effects. It may not happen soon, but I believe I can, eventually.
But - maybe try this? Maybe microcredit seems strange when your home country is such a fucking mess itself?
@PilgrimSoul: Yeah, the microcredit thing bugged me too. I've heard a lot of criticisms and I really looked into it before lending some $$ on Kiva. There are ALWAYS going to be losers in any sort of society and economic system, but I think microcredit is a net benefit to the poor. At least, I hope so since I'm helping finance it.
@PilgrimSoul: Like she said, she doesn't want to end micro-credit. She just wants some protections. I mean, when a group of people come together to form a company in the western world, we form an LLC, so that our personal money isn't held liable for the repayment of the loan. The company can declare bankruptcy if there is no money to be found.
It seems that all Latoya seems to be asking for is some form of an LLC and the police force willing to protect a person's property from their business partners if the shit should hit the fan.
The reason Kiva is as cheap to run as it is, is because there are no labour protections. Start slowly building some in and the prices for starting them might rise, but not considerably given the deals we already get on them.
That seems to be all Latoya was criticizing. Individual protection.
@aspiringexpatriate: But this seems like a catch-22 to me. What happens in places where corruption runs rampid? How can places insure protection when officials can be paid off?
I mean, I know microcredit isn't great, but at least it's doing something right now.
@taranwanderer: If the protection can't come from the gov't, then it has to come from the micro-finance corporation, whether it's a corporation or an NPO based out of another country.
It's not a perfect system, and Latoya was just pointing out that there are issues which needs addressing.
Maybe there should be a Better Business Bureau for micro-finance organizations. The ones with the best track record for all the participants' well-being rising near the top.
Maybe there is one. I don't know much about it, just taking what Latoya and Megan said in and processing it.
Although, Megan really pointed out something intense. If everything is fucked up, which is clearly is, and when we try to fix it & nothing changes? Well then, everyone gives up.
I work as an enviro. I cannot tell you how hard it is to go out into communities & try to rally them to fight Icky Company X because they are dumping shit/toxins/runoff into their water supply, etc... The general consensus is, 'well, we did that. No one listened.' OR 'We fought, but nothing happened. We did all this work & they still fucked us over.'
@rosasparks: It's really sad when I see my peers trying to change things, and I know what all the adults we need to influence are telling us. We'll grow up one day, we'll see that this doesn't really change anything, and we'll move on. Everyone is convinced that if you're a young person and an activist, it's because you're naive to the real ways of the world.
If my amazing activist peers give up and join corporate America instead of changing it, I'll be so shattered.
@CollegeBookworm: No! Don't lose hope! It IS possible to remain an activist as you get older.
Granted, I have only been out of college three years, but my activist friends have either been in the Peace Corps, JVC, Teach for America, or are social workers. If we have had to work in corporate america or other random jobs, we volunteer on the weekends or join protests or read up on events in order to stay informed.
My grandfather says this Churchill quote, "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain." I am determined to prove him wrong.
I feel like the Indian victims have already been "othered". It really upset me that so much of the news coverage focused on the Brooklyn-born man and his wife who were killed, orphaning their son. The story is incredibly upsetting and tragic, but there were dozens upon dozens of other people who were killed who weren't from America or Britain.
And even the shelf life, so to speak, of the American victim was short. I know the New York tabloid papers aren't where I should look for news coverage but enough people do look there that it bothers me how all they're covering right now is Plaxico Burress accidentally shooting himself in the thigh, rather than focus on the scores who were intentionally shot less than a week ago.
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: see, I care less about this than I care that people were too busy "giving thanks" and "being with their families" and all sorts of boring sentimental rhetoric that amounts to "I was stuffing my face and watching football" to care about people who were far away. And brown too!
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: Dude, that stuff annoys me to no end. "Thousands of people were killed in country XYTZ today, and TWO of them WERE AMERICANS. This is such a tragedy for AMERICA and the family of the dead. Stay with us now as we interview people that went to highschool with the victims."
Otherwise, I absolutely agree with you. Jon Stewart actually pointed that out on the Daily Show last night, that the tabloids are covering Plaxico's self-shooting rather than Mumbai. Actually, the Daily Show last night had a great segment with John Oliver about how exceedingly stupid terrorism is if you parse it out. "We hate and kill everything you stand for. Join us."
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: Agreed totally. The stories that really upset me are, like, the tailor who was shot in the back as he was closing up his shop, or the man @ the train station who was shot in the forehead after he gave one of the terrorists a glass of water. Jesus Christ, can you get more brutal than that?
@PilgrimSoul: I think I already mentioned that I fought with my Dad about this on Thanksgiving. Watching the news vs. watching football -- we had different priorities.
@CollegeBookworm: My bad, I gathered the wrong impression from the articles I read. I totally did not see Jon Stewart last night, but now I really wish I had.
And again I will harp on the local news coverage here: a bus driver was killed by a passenger in Brooklyn, and even that local brutal murder is getting less coverage than the damned football player. Blah, I really hate the world right now.
@SisterMaryMartha: And what's amazing is that I don't think I've ever heard such a true news piece on terror. I just watched it again so I could get that quote right, and it just struck me- how do these people not get that killing people isn't going to turn us to their side? That makes no sense at all, and that's why it's terror. Terror makes no sense. Maybe if they would consider logic, we'd be able to move towards something new?
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: dailyshow.com, you can totally still watch it. It's like a three minute clip of John Oliver being bleeped out like crazy as he refers to the terrorists as motherfuckers and assholes, and attempts to explain why they keep making such dick moves.
@CollegeBookworm: Because they are not trying to "turn us." They are killing us. Plain and simple. If you are not with them, then you are cannon fodder. They want their message written in blood, for all to see, because the world is oriented around news now, and something that happens anywhere is around the planet in a matter of minutes. They want us to know they will not be ignored, will not be bullied, and will bloody us if we try. It is the purview of madmen and sycophants.
@NefariousNewt: In the case of radical Islam, I do think that some of them are looking to convert everyone to Islam. Islam is a proselytizing religion. Now me, they just want dead. I'm a feminist American Jew, pretty much everything they hate. But if the average mostly-secular American could be converted to the terrorists' form of radical Islam and convinced to join the fight, I have no doubt the terrorists consider that a victory as well.
@sarah.of.a.lesser.god.prepares.to.welcome.a.boy.ovumlord: I feel the same and I feel like a terrible person for being angry that I'm only hearing about the brooklyn couple or the father/daughter in Virginia. Maybe it's because I've been to India, but the way this is being covered is really bothering me too.
@taranwanderer: I'm my grad school there is a huge Asian population, mostly Indian and Chinese. Ever since this story came out I've been worried about the family members of my school-friends. This bullshit shouldn't happen to anyone.
Just thinking about happen open 'warfare' around me makes my hair stand on ends. I which we civilians had the means to defend ourselves from these fucking assholes- but I guess that kevlar vests aren't cheap and would be totally unfashionable.
@SisterMaryMartha: Duh. Especially in places that are so foreign, so alien to Americans. Dude, those people in India don't look like us, AT ALL! They're weird & scary.
MEGAN: We aren't engaged because people have short memories. Every place is fucked up. And the solutions are not easy solutions. People gave money, and it didn't get better.
I think it goes deeper than that. We aren't engaged because it's not happening here. These people are "over there." We threw money at them, they couldn't make it work. More's the pity, but we have our own problems.
Mind you, it is happening here. People are shot and killed every day in this country. People starve every day in this country. But that doesn't make the news, because we don't want to hear it. We want that to be somebody else's problem. We want to believe we are good people because we gave Africa money, and hey, why should we be held accountable if they couldn't handle it?
Like every problem here or abroad, money is not the solution. It comes down to education. It is not enough to send money or bags of food to Africa -- we need to send our best and brightest to help them utilize their resources better. We need to show the world how to do it better. The problem is: we've forgotten how. Remember the Marshall Plan? The Peace Corps? We need more of those and less of the "war on terror."
@NefariousNewt: I don't think I buy this "we don't see it because we don't want to hear it" stuff. We don't see it because it's not broadcast or published. It's not broadcast or published because the powers that be decide that we don't want to see it. Why do they do that? Because they're not reporting news, they're selling a paper to a common denominator.
That said, shouldn't the lowest common denominator include scores of horrific photos?
I mean, that's why yellow journalism worked so damned well.
Thank you. It is happening here and it disgusts me that people miss that. Ever been to Browning, MT? East St. Louis? People still die of TB in inner city Boston. TB! This disease is curable! Of course I'm not saying that we are just as bad as a developing nation, but there is bad shit here too that nobody cares about. It disgusts me.
I remember Obama saying something about the encouraging our young people to do service abroad. Not charity -- service. Assisting. Educating. Helping. People can rise out of poverty with dignity intact.
Maybe then our best and brightest will come home with a new awareness in their eyes and work to make their local communities better because it does happen here too.
@aspiringexpatriate: But if we wanted to see it, we'd make our voices heard to the media. But you don't see a huge uproar over this, do you? Nobody's boycotting ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox News, CNN, et. al. over their coverage or lack of coverage. We remain complacent, which, in the face of how much effort went into getting Barack Obama elected, still has me puzzled. It's as if the American citizen still believes that they have no power to change things, even though they just did.
@taranwanderer: Part of the TB problem is that the new strains are particularly drug resistant and mainly infect... you guessed it- the poor and immunocompromised.
I have been using the prospect of a massive biological or nuclear attack by a terrorist group to justify using drugs and alcohol to excess for years now. Years!
12/02/08
12/02/08
Put another way: if the blood and gore were shown, there would be plenty of people complaining about it being shown. If it isn't, we have plenty of people complaining that it isn't. There's no happy medium when it comes to this.
12/02/08
What I think needs to be expressed in discussing these stories within the media is "how" these groups are becoming stronger and angrier by the day. I don't want excuses, but I think people really need to understand that this is way more than a few bad apples within the Muslim religion. This is a way of life for many people in the Middle East, terrified of attacks on a daily basis, something America will never truly understand, so pictures might not assist in it either. But I think the UN and whomever else needs to start discussing what the hell this world is doing to stop these types of attacks.
12/02/08
My friend is in the Teach for America program and is currently working in the 9th ward. Her children - ages 11 and 12 - have FACIAL TATTOOS, ARE PREGNANT and ARE DROPPING OUT TO JOIN GANGS and GET JOBS. As we sit by and watch that shit happen, how can we be expected to care about a few Indians across the world? (*sarcasm*)
12/02/08
LATOYA: And that mindset is part of the reason why it is hard to motivate people to take action and to protest.
But also, people feel powerless. More people have protested against this war than all the glorified hippies did for Vietnam, but here we are. This administration was able to get away with so much because people feel powerless. We fight for right and live decently, and in the end we still have nothing to show for it. Many of us cannot be called complacent. The news has been bought and is the loudspeaker for the corporate interest. And when a news story is without an agenda, the Times goes and writes about a mother not buying her designer jeans so that she can buy her kid a mountain of toys - and that's supposed to mirror the nation's current experience?
We have short memories because we wouldn't be able to get through each day without them.
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I still don't know how I feel about the violence-in-the-media debate. I do think Americans need to see more violence in general and have it not be a big deal, but I don't think we need to go overboard.
But the problem is really that as long as many Americans don't see violence on their streets, they will fetishize violence. The middle/ruling class here is pretty insular, and that's where the fetishization of violence comes from.
In Israel, for example, no one is shielded from violence since all our "wars" are 5 miles away, and everyone has to serve in the (very active) army. So violence isn't fetishized at all.
Part of these problems don't just stem from the media, but from the landscape of a country. Americans are allowed to live in a lala land where they don't see violence occurring. The problem isn't to let Americans see more violence on TV, but to see it in real life by integrating more parts of society. I'm not saying we need a draft, but maybe mandatory civil service?
Images on TV aren't everything.
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Scary thoughts.
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Also, it's been pointed out that many of these picks are serious advocates of refocusing foreign policy towards diplomacy and away from sheer, unmitigated military buildup. About fucking time.
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Like in the episode of House, when he was choosing a new team and he had to let that one guy go, even though the guy was really smart: it was because he kept thinking of the same things that House did.
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@J.D.Regent: Yes, he's always been a centrist, but I never thought Hilary was as hawkish as she claimed to be. I think she felt she had to be in order to not appear a weak woman. I mean, if she listened to Mark Penn, and it seems she did, this isn't a far-fetched belief.
12/02/08
I think they should also have some more flaxibility in their programs, so that those econ micro-credit PhD students and engineers can go work on a project for say, 1.5 years instead of the 2 years 3 months it is now; the amount of time required is really off-putting to a lot of more educated people,and older people, and encourages more applicants that "don't know what they want to do with their lives" making the experience more about the volunteer than the hosting country.
12/02/08
1) You cannot predict something like this. The terrorists will work on their own timetable. They will attack with little warning, in a place you are not anticipating, in a way you have not planned for.
2) Nuclear and biological material is too hard to work with. You'll note that terrorists seem to be doing just fine with bombs, guns, and flying planes into things, all things readily available and cheap.
3) This is the continuation of the Bush Administration's fear campaign. They've only got a little time left to spread a little more unfounded, abject fear before they go.
12/02/08
But you can still buy fertilizer and black powder at hardware stores. Part of the reason why no serious nation ever really challenged the conventions against chemical warfare is because it's not very good at warfare. Conventional explosive are much, much more effective at killing people.
A concentrated, coordinated effort by terrorists using crap they found at Lowe's could cripple Manhattan, and they wouldn't even have to commit suicide to do it.
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There've been a handful of attacks with poison gas, and the Anthrax attacks, but these are notable for their extremely low body counts.
I don't know. This reminds me of the thing in Iraq where the Army was sent in to military bases to secure the (imaginary) WMDs--and consequently left all the fucking conventional explosives unsecured. Explosive which, subsequently, disappeared, and have been used in every IED in Iraq ever since.
12/02/08
I dunno. I am just as frightened for a bunch of sickos with a lot of ammo & guns blasting away at citizens. Wait, didn't that just happpen?
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Excessive power is unnecessary when you've got precision. That's why nuclear weapons were retarded in the first place.
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The fact is, exacting calculation is far more detrimental than just blowing something to smithereens for miles.
Nuclear weapons are not about actual war. It's about threatening people and creating a boogeyman. The fact that everyone continues to freak out about it is proof it still works.
12/02/08
I take it seriously enough to think that someone will probably want to, maybe, walk into a building & blow everyone way. And maybe coordinate that with several cities, and shoot all those people, too.
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Too bad you make solid sense.
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"A game of one-upmanship between commenters on the Jezebel.com website today spiralled out of control, ending with both commenters being apprehended by the CIA as they were in the process of coordinating massive terrorist attacks, simply to prove points made in what started as an innocent internet debate.
It is believed that Godwin's Law was not invoked this time."
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That's what I mean by how we've forgotten how to do things. We add all these pre-conditions onto our aid now (you can have money for birth control, but only if you don't talk about abortion!) and force poor countries into very tight spots. They need something and we have them over a barrel -- do it our way or you get nothing. And this inevitably leads to corruption and graft, and resources being squandered or diverted.
This can't be the way it works. We have to step up, to give with open hands and open hearts. But we can't just keep blindly throwing money at countries and expecting them to make things work. If there's going to be a precondition on our aid, let it be that they have to let our people come in to help them set up their systems of agriculture, trade, health, etc., and they have to let us teach them what we can. And let's not go in there thinking we can whip their problems in a week -- if we go in, we must go in with open minds, see the picture as they see it, and honor their traditions. We have to learn to work together, if there is going to be true change.
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[www.historyisaweapon.com]
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Microfinance can be very effective. The idea of having a group of people being responsible for each other sounds very foreign to us here in the US, but is very normal in the rest of the world, one reason similar microfinance type programs do NOT work here in the heart of capitalism. In Haiti, FONKOZE has started another program to help the poorest of the poor, people who borrow less than $20- US, just to get them off their knees and begin to stand. I am sure that some groups might feel coerced by their members, but that is also bad training and management on the part of the lender. World wide - there are many more successful programs. It is popular now to talk about microfinance, but not all programs are truly the original model.
Shout out to LaToya - love the smarts!
And as far as violent imagery goes, I think there are some Greek urns and cave paintings we could look at. The US Civil War was almost the first time - the Crimean War was actually the first - that people could see photographic evidence of dead and maimed bodies in wide circulation. These images did bring the horror home in a way not possible before but did it shorten the war? Think of the amazing literature we have, too, "The Red Badge of Courage, "Johnny Got His Gun" "All Quiet on the Western Front" and scores of others. Yet, we still kill each other.
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Using kids to kill people has been common in some of these terrorist attacks. Meanwhile they and the suicide killers are sent to be killed while the true assholes hide in their comfy houses.
12/02/08
Ps. Hey Latoya!
12/02/08
Sigh. I am sending cosmic hugs to minisparks.
ps don't drink that Starbucks crap! That stuff gives me a headache & ruins my stomach. blurg.
12/02/08
I hate Sbucks. But there it is.
12/02/08
I get the willies if I drink one of their "drinks". Straight up crazies.
12/02/08
I mean, honour and dignity are great, but there's no honour or dignity in being unable to feed yourself or your family either.
12/02/08
But - maybe try this? Maybe microcredit seems strange when your home country is such a fucking mess itself?
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It seems that all Latoya seems to be asking for is some form of an LLC and the police force willing to protect a person's property from their business partners if the shit should hit the fan.
The reason Kiva is as cheap to run as it is, is because there are no labour protections. Start slowly building some in and the prices for starting them might rise, but not considerably given the deals we already get on them.
That seems to be all Latoya was criticizing. Individual protection.
12/02/08
I mean, I know microcredit isn't great, but at least it's doing something right now.
12/02/08
It's not a perfect system, and Latoya was just pointing out that there are issues which needs addressing.
Maybe there should be a Better Business Bureau for micro-finance organizations. The ones with the best track record for all the participants' well-being rising near the top.
Maybe there is one. I don't know much about it, just taking what Latoya and Megan said in and processing it.
12/02/08
Although, Megan really pointed out something intense. If everything is fucked up, which is clearly is, and when we try to fix it & nothing changes? Well then, everyone gives up.
I work as an enviro. I cannot tell you how hard it is to go out into communities & try to rally them to fight Icky Company X because they are dumping shit/toxins/runoff into their water supply, etc... The general consensus is, 'well, we did that. No one listened.' OR 'We fought, but nothing happened. We did all this work & they still fucked us over.'
I feel shattered.
12/02/08
If my amazing activist peers give up and join corporate America instead of changing it, I'll be so shattered.
12/02/08
Granted, I have only been out of college three years, but my activist friends have either been in the Peace Corps, JVC, Teach for America, or are social workers. If we have had to work in corporate america or other random jobs, we volunteer on the weekends or join protests or read up on events in order to stay informed.
My grandfather says this Churchill quote, "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain." I am determined to prove him wrong.
12/02/08
And even the shelf life, so to speak, of the American victim was short. I know the New York tabloid papers aren't where I should look for news coverage but enough people do look there that it bothers me how all they're covering right now is Plaxico Burress accidentally shooting himself in the thigh, rather than focus on the scores who were intentionally shot less than a week ago.
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"Thousands of people were killed in country XYTZ today, and TWO of them WERE AMERICANS. This is such a tragedy for AMERICA and the family of the dead. Stay with us now as we interview people that went to highschool with the victims."
12/02/08
Otherwise, I absolutely agree with you. Jon Stewart actually pointed that out on the Daily Show last night, that the tabloids are covering Plaxico's self-shooting rather than Mumbai. Actually, the Daily Show last night had a great segment with John Oliver about how exceedingly stupid terrorism is if you parse it out. "We hate and kill everything you stand for. Join us."
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@CollegeBookworm: My bad, I gathered the wrong impression from the articles I read. I totally did not see Jon Stewart last night, but now I really wish I had.
And again I will harp on the local news coverage here: a bus driver was killed by a passenger in Brooklyn, and even that local brutal murder is getting less coverage than the damned football player. Blah, I really hate the world right now.
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Just thinking about happen open 'warfare' around me makes my hair stand on ends. I which we civilians had the means to defend ourselves from these fucking assholes- but I guess that kevlar vests aren't cheap and would be totally unfashionable.
12/02/08
Violence only matters when AMERICANS get killed - and then we show tears.
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Part of my soul died when I did that.
12/02/08
I think it goes deeper than that. We aren't engaged because it's not happening here. These people are "over there." We threw money at them, they couldn't make it work. More's the pity, but we have our own problems.
Mind you, it is happening here. People are shot and killed every day in this country. People starve every day in this country. But that doesn't make the news, because we don't want to hear it. We want that to be somebody else's problem. We want to believe we are good people because we gave Africa money, and hey, why should we be held accountable if they couldn't handle it?
Like every problem here or abroad, money is not the solution. It comes down to education. It is not enough to send money or bags of food to Africa -- we need to send our best and brightest to help them utilize their resources better. We need to show the world how to do it better. The problem is: we've forgotten how. Remember the Marshall Plan? The Peace Corps? We need more of those and less of the "war on terror."
12/02/08
That said, shouldn't the lowest common denominator include scores of horrific photos?
I mean, that's why yellow journalism worked so damned well.
12/02/08
Thank you. It is happening here and it disgusts me that people miss that. Ever been to Browning, MT? East St. Louis? People still die of TB in inner city Boston. TB! This disease is curable! Of course I'm not saying that we are just as bad as a developing nation, but there is bad shit here too that nobody cares about. It disgusts me.
I remember Obama saying something about the encouraging our young people to do service abroad. Not charity -- service. Assisting. Educating. Helping. People can rise out of poverty with dignity intact.
Maybe then our best and brightest will come home with a new awareness in their eyes and work to make their local communities better because it does happen here too.
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