complicated conversations

posts about #complicatedconversations more →
Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
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Pantra
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
I'm one of those people who have no interest in even Googling someone, and I hate it when someone Googles me. I've had cashiers and baristas, total strangers who saw my name on my debit card, Google me and find out my age, my address, look at my house, read obituaries I'm listed in where the deaths were tragedies I'd like kept private, and so on. It's grossly intrusive. I realize this is how we live now but I'm sick of people knowing intimate details about me that I haven't told them. None of which I "put out" there - I don't do social networking, but a lot of stuff is online regardless. And when someone has a crush on you, or is jealous of you, it's scary how much info they can come up with.

I think as with many things, prevalence starts equating acceptability after a while. Personally I feel it's undignified and also destructive to people who get really obsessive about it. If I found out someone hacked into my voice mails or otherwise spied on me, I would pursue the most severe legal means possible to punish them. Privacy is becoming a lost concept. #aliwise
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suck_it_monkeys
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
Excellent analysis, Jenna. I can definitely relate to the underlying tendency to obsess over people who meant a great deal to me in the past and are no longer in my life. Most 0f us wouldn't go nearly this far, but I can understand the impulse. Most likely once she overcame the initial ethical hesitation and hacked into the first voicemail, it was easier to justify the next one, and so on until she became compulsive. I'm sure on some level she felt shame for what she was doing all along. Kind of an amplified version of what I feel when I google that one mysterious ex for the bazillionth time, despite being in a happy relationship. #aliwise
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roslyn taber
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
one interesting thing i feel like no one's touched on is that Jenna is focusing on people who cheated on her -- i feel like in those kinds of cases, there is more impetus to know about the other woman, sort of as a way of finding an explanation for why the person you cared about hurt you. and i also think being cheated on can make it easy to fall into a feeling-bad-about-yourself cycle, and if that is how you are dealing with being cheated on, learning more about the person your bf cheated with can help provide fuel for that (especially icky) fire. #aliwise
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laureltreedaphne
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
I cannot stop checking my boyfriend's ex's Facebook page. It drives me crazy but I can't stop doing it.

I also have a friend who I broke off contact with a few months ago - she does nothing but post annoying updates on her page. I took her off my news feed so I could just move on with my life and stop being obsessive - and yet I still go and check her page when I'm on Facebook. It's crazy. Why do we do this stuff? #aliwise
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ImperfectLit.Woman
10/21/09

@laureltreedaphne: I have no idea. i keep checking my ex's page and his now ex girlfriends? for some reason and I can't stop doing it either. Ugh.

I hate myself for caring that much and then I hate myself more for picking her apart. This can't be healthy. #aliwise
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BytheSea
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
Why would you want to stalk your ex's new thing online? What does that do for you? How is obsession and brooding adding anything positive to your life? Once or twice, maybe, but a thousand times? I've seen this in articles here on Jez a lot, as confessionary reporting, and I don't think it's something to be proud of. I don't know if it's "normal" or "average" because I don't have that many friends to poll, but from a psychological standpoint, I think that every time you give in to that impulse, you're digging yourself deeper into hatred and self-loathing. there's got to be something better you can do with your time that isn't so self-absorbed and spawning of negativity.
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Edited by BytheSea at 10/21/09 5:22 PM BytheSea was starred BytheSea was unstarred

tewkesbury
10/21/09

@BytheSea: I don't think that Jenna is arguing that it does add anything positive to her life. I think the point here is that it both interests and frightens her that she can find any common ground with someone whose behavior she clearly acknowledges is reprehensible--which is to say, not at all positive. #aliwise
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msmoneypenny
10/21/09

@tewkesbury: Your interpretation makes sense, but this sentence . "Because she's facing up to four years in prison for the kinds of acts that, while most of us would not have committed, might, if we're honest with ourselves, have at least considered." makes it seem like Jenna is speaking on behalf of most women. Perhaps she is right and maybe BytheSea and I are exceptions to the rule? Personally, I've operated on the it's your loss, buddy line of thinking/behavior, but my experience isn't everyone else's either. I guess I wonder if *most* women do feel the urge like Jenna. Someone should do a study. #aliwise
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tewkesbury
10/21/09

@msmoneypenny: it is an interesting question, and you make a good point. While I'll admit that I don't have your Give a Shit Switch (which you should totally market), I also can't say that I've ever considered electronically stalking anyone. And having been on the receiving end of jealous-woman-stalking, I also don't feel especially kindly inclined toward Ali Wise. #aliwise
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GoldenRatioφ (aka -girl11)
10/22/09

@BytheSea: Well, I read celebrity gossip, so I suppose I like gossip and sometimes I'm interested to see what goes on in an old friend or ex's life. It's definitely lame, but checking an ex's facebook page, or looking at photos of him with his new girlfriend doesn't strike me as wrong, because it's out there for the public to see. It's not like facebook is some secret diary, or a very private place, and what you want to keep private, you can. Of course, I've been extremely lucky not to have any acrimonious breakups, so I am genuinely happy and interested when exes are happy. But I'm sure I would do the same in the case of a horrible breakup too. But none of this justifies going into someone's private e-mail, or voicemail box, because that is clearly meant to stay private. #aliwise
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Bgirl_Hamster
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
Anyone remember that Keeping Up with the Kardashians episode where Kim hacked into Khloe's man's voicemail? I hope for them that the whole thing was fake, because I don't think Kim (or Ali Wise) would make it very long in the big house. #aliwise
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pesematology
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
I'm surprised she has time for anything else. Just the amount of time she's spent listening to the phrase "New message from xxx-xxxx at x:xx PM, Press 1 to go to main menu" must add up to at least several episodes of Mad Men. #aliwise
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Leslie
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
I can't relate to this behavior at all. This is psycho behavior. Are "most people" actually sitting around "considering" these kinds of acts? If so, that is freaking scary. #aliwise
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dangerslut
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
I can't empathize because to do so would mean that I'm validating stalker-like behavior, and I just can't do that. Facebook-stalking, google-stalking, all of that is just a slippery slope for one really off-balance person to do something dangerous. #aliwise
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egg cream
10/21/09

@dangerslut: Eh. I wouldn't place Facebook- and Google-stalking in the same category as this. I tend to do a lot of web-stalking for no real reason other than if information is out there, I like to have it -- and I always draw the line at information that isn't freely available. If you have to hack into it, or pay for it, it isn't your information to have. #aliwise
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bananaballs
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
No, sorry, I don't have sympathy for her. It's one thing to imagine yourself doing something vile and nasty, and another to actually go through the motions of doing it ONCE, much less 1,000 times. There's something sociopathic about that, that she hacked into voicemails she had no business hacking into, multiple times, obsessively. That's like saying I was once tempted to steal money, so I relate to Bernie Madoff. If she gets off easy, it sets a fucked up precedent that you can behave badly and get away with it. Especially if you're blond, pretty, and work in PR/insert_glamorous_industry. #aliwise
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sybann
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
My boss leaves his email open all the time and I am sorely tempted all the time, but it would be WRONG.

But it takes a battle. Every time. #aliwise
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athenaswisdom
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
To all the people who say that Google searching someone obsessively is a-okay, because it is public information: well, yes. That's true. And I readily admit to looking up old boyfriends, their wives, etc. But sometimes individuals don't voluntarily put their information/image out there for viewing-- it can end up posted on the Internet without the knowledge or consent of the person identified. Just something to think about. #aliwise
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Edited by athenaswisdom at 10/21/09 5:02 PM athenaswisdom was starred athenaswisdom was unstarred

egg cream
10/21/09

@athenaswisdom: But then where do you draw the line on that? No, not all the information on the Internet is posted by the subject or with the subject's consent. But then, not all the conversations people have about people are had in the subject's presence or with the subject's consent, either. Is it wrong to ask a mutual acquaintance about someone? Is it wrong to listen to a conversation about someone? Is it wrong to look at a picture of someone hanging in someone else's house, or think about who the woman in the picture with that someone is?

I think what people don't realize when they talk about privacy on the Internet is that this information has always been out there. You have always said and done things. People have always remembered them. Pictures of you have always been displayed in places you didn't know about, seen by people you've never met. Stories about you and your life have always been told without your knowledge, without your consent. The Internet let you see that all those things were happening, and how much, but it didn't start them.
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Edited by egg cream at 10/21/09 5:16 PM egg cream was starred egg cream was unstarred

athenaswisdom
10/21/09

@egg cream is here, is second tier, get used to it: It's not wrong to do any of those things, inclusing a search on the Internet. You're right that there have always been disclosures of private information. I would argue that the level of such dissemination has increased tremendously in the last 20 years, because of the widespread availability of communications technology. My point was not so much about the ethics of curious searching, but about the opinions we form based on that and how they can be harmful to others and to ourselves. Often, when it comes to snooping, it's just better not to go there. #aliwise
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esthergreenwood
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
While Wise's behavior is clearly reprehensible and childish, I feel like felony charges are over the top. Shouldn't we reserve felonies for murderers and rapists and Joe Francis and stuff? #aliwise
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slowpoke.r
10/21/09

@esthergreenwood: Did you know that it's a felony to key someone's car? It falls under "destruction of property" which means you've broken the same law whether you flipped the car over and lit it on fire or keyed it. So I'm guessing that what she did falls under a law that refers to more serious circumstances*- something like invasion of privacy- but she's charged under it because she did the same essential action, though arguably to a lesser degree. And that there are variations in sentencing that reflect at what level the defendant broke the law. But legal Jezzies can feel free to correct me.

*Not to say that this isn't serious by any means- I'm one of those who cannot empathize with her actions- but there are worse ways to invade someone's privacy, obviously. #aliwise
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KikiCanuck
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
There's a world of difference between understanding someone's motivations to do something this wrong, and actually committing the act. I have, on occasion, felt so angry, frustrated and betrayed that I have wanted to hit someone, in that really bad, closed-fisted, punch-your-lights-out kind of way. I understood the impetus that drives people to violence, and it terrified me. It scared me right back into the place where I would never put my hand on someone else out of anger. I think that's the key - you see the line, and you acknowledge that it's there, and when you feel yourself flriting with it, it scares the shit out of you. From what little I know of it, Ali Wise seems like a woman who has lost track of, or was never aware of, the line. #aliwise
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AndPreciousLittleofThat
10/21/09

In reply to Common Ground: Understanding Ali Wise, Ex-Girlfriend From Hell
For me the thing that separates Google/Facebook mining and hacking into people's voicemails is intimacy.

When you're on Facebook, you're seeing someone's own self-conception; basically you're getting to experience this person as they view themselves, only ramped up to 11.

But voicemails, especially important ones, are incredibly (and sometimes embarassingly) intimate. I've saved lots of voicemails from my 95-year old grandmother, but that's because they're important to ME. I'd be horrified if I knew that something special had been laid bare like that, without me even knowing. #aliwise
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