@Kate: He showed absolutely no remorse. I think he was pretty pleased with himself, which just disgusts me. I hope he enjoys the rest of his life in prison.
I realize that hate crime laws are trying to do the right thing, but I don't necessarily see why killing someone you hate because they are gay/Hispanic/Muslim is any worse than killing someone you hate because they slept with your girlfriend. Is the latter's family affected any less? Murder is murder is murder.
@greensprout: I agree with you that special classes of people are protected by the law because they are more likely to be the victims of crime but I think tomboygirl raises a deeper question.
Which is why are these groups protected? For example, Muslims are protected under hate crime law because they are often victims of crime by people who are upset about the middle east. But women are often victims of crime because society holds certain unfair prejudices against them. So why aren't women protected under hate crime law?
And by focusing on certain groups to protect, aren't you engaging in the very same discriminatory behavior that you want to eliminate from society?
@tomboygirl: Part of the reasoning behind classifying certain crimes as "hate-crimes" is that these offenses do more than harm the immediate victim, they spread fear throughout the entire community (be it af-am, gay, muslim etc)
@Quentin Reynolds: And by focusing on certain groups to protect, aren't you engaging in the very same discriminatory behavior that you want to eliminate from society?
ugh, no. colorblindness is NOT a solution to racial oppression.
What an awful story. I hope that someday soon the general public understands what it means to be transgendered, and realizes when the language that is used is degrading or respectful.
I must say, even though it is in the context of an equally tragic story, the idea of being "two-spirit" made my cold heart warm.
@greensprout: That's the NYT said. I'm glad that they convicted him of a hate crime, which adds three years, but it doesn't really matter in terms of jail time because murder in the first is life without parole.
@deitybox: i don't think they'd view it as a justification, but as a mitigating circumstance-- acting in the heat of the moment lessens penalties for other types of crimes too.
Ugh, as much as I am always happy when the definition of hate crimes is widened to include as much awful bigotry as possible... I think Anna's phrase "the saddest progress" sums it up.
I'm horrified that SHE was murdered in the first place, but I'm perhaps even more horrified that after the trial SHE undoubtedly went through in order to transition (my cousin did the same thing and boy it was not easy, either physically, socially or emotionally), never mind the traumatic years spent in the wrong gender, that the defense would actually spit on HER grave like that by continously fucking up their pronouns.
@LovelyHue: The defense is doing their job. You and I might view it as disrespectful to the dead, but the defense attorney probably views it as trying to point out the inherint discrepency between what the client thought the victim's past was, and what it actually was.
@inabook: Right. The defense's job is to provide a vigorous defense for his client, which in this case, involved the "shock" of discovering that a person perceived to be a woman was in fact a man. Defense attorneys are bound their client's instructions (provided those instructions aren't illegal) and so, although it is callous to refer to Angela as Justin, this must be assessed in the larger context of the role of the defense in a criminal trial and what those obligations entail. I don't think it is fair to infer that this defense lawyer is an insensitive lout based solely on his choice of language in court. That being said, if he chooses to disrespect the choices that transgender persons make through the use of his language in his non-professional life, or when there are not competing obligations, then it is fair to criticize him.
@Ms. Crankypants ... is in exam brain drain: I'm not criticizing the defense lawyer in particular, I'm criticizing the defense's whole line in general. My post never says the words "defense lawyer". As an organism, I think the defense is disgusting and insulting and I think this opinion is wholly justified, regardless of whether the defense lawyer can be nice to transgender people while holding puppies.
And the fact that they're just doing their job? Well, bully for them. I hadn't realized that we couldn't criticize people's jobs.
The language used is insulting and demeaning, belies the incredible ignorance exhibited by the general public towards transgenderism, and helps uphold the ignorance of those beliefs. What's more, it could have been MY cousin, so I think my anger is wholly justified.
@inabook: Logically I know that, but in my heart I just feel like there had to have been a better way. I know everybody deserves their day in court and everybody deserves the best defense, but I just don't know if I could bring myself to take a case like that. Calling Angie Justin just feels like lying to me.
@LovelyHue: I understand your point and the importance of language. I'm sorry I misunderstood your point, I thought you were speaking about the specific defense lawyer's use of language rather than the theory of the case that the defense was putting forward, namely that Andrade was so shocked when he learned that Angela was transgendered, that he responded through violence and this should be a mitigating factor. As I said earlier, I am glad that this did not work.
When I talked about "doing their job" I wish it was that easy. Being a defense lawyer is not just "a job", nor can it be assessed in isolation from the rest of the judicial system. The role of defense lawyers in our society is incredibly important in protecting people from the abuse of state power, from being wrongfully imprisoned, from receiving harsher sentences than they deserve, etc. Going to jail, aside from being placed involuntarily in a psychiatric institution, or being put on death row, is the most serious infringement of civil liberties that can occur to a person. It should not be done lightly and the prosecution must prove every element of the offense and every factor which warrants additional consideration beyond a reasonable doubt. They clearly did that in this case.
The defense has a moral obligation to put forward the strongest defense possible, while adhering to client instructions, which includes trying to mitigate based on the client's state of mind. We have no idea whether a plea was offered, whether it was rejected, what the client told the defense to argue, etc. The larger societal implications are left to the judge/jury to decide. It is not the role of the defense to make normative decisions about how our society should behave towards one another. The reason for this is it would compete with the obligation to mount a vigorous defense and to represent your client to the full extent that the law permits because the focus must be on the client, no matter how despicable or reprehensible their actions are because of the seriousness to which their lives are in jeopardy.
While this may sound callous, especially because Angela died at the hands of this person who was clearly motivated by hatred, but the fact is it is up to the state to prove that Mr. Andrade, did in fact commit this crime.
I think it would be better if we as a society focused on how we all use language so as to ensure that defenses like this one continue to be rebuked. So that the strategy of calling Angela a man would be sure to backfire. But, when it comes to a criminal defense, the only obligation is to the client, and, until there's a complete overhaul of our judicial system, that is how it must be.
So, it's not that I don't think your anger is not justified, but I was trying to show the other side.
BTW, as a law student working in a clinic, I have been on the other side, representing transgendered clients, and attacking vigorously the misuse of language as a violation of one's rights (this is not a criminal case). I've been up against a defense that I think callously and insultingly referred to the client as the wrong gender, and I will be arguing that this is a continuing insult that should not go unsanctioned. The other side is putting forward what they think is the best defense (I happen to disagree) but that is their role in this system and it's up to the decision-maker to decide and all I can do is keep pressing as to why this language should not be tolerated.
I had a great-aunt like this. She lived in Alaska in the 1920s, and then in the wilds of Idaho. She tamed the west in white gloves, did my Aunt Lilian.
I can pick, shuck, de-silk, clean, cut, cook, and freeze sweet corn, and I scare cattle back into their enclosure after they walk through a broken spot in a fence, and I know how to pull weeds and pick rocks and not get lost in a cornfield, but I still feel WAY weird and awkward when I hail a cab.
Whereas these fine women roughed it up in Colorado, I defiantly brave the treacherous terrain of Cubicleland, USA. Life here is rife with difficulty. Once I had to refill the coffee pot without any scissors to open the coffee packet. Last summer the building didn't turn down the AC on a particularly chilly day and I needed to procure a sweater from a local clothier.
It's a rough life, someday young lasses will be reading stories about me.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
One of the quotes I'd read was him basically saying that it was ok, because she wasn't like, a schoolteacher or anyone important.
'Cause, you know, it was totally her fault that he killed her, riiight?
I just hope that her family can focus on healing now, and not so much on this sorry excuse for a man.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
(I don't want to get into a sentence length discussion, I think sentences for both murders should be equal.)
04/23/09
Which is why are these groups protected? For example, Muslims are protected under hate crime law because they are often victims of crime by people who are upset about the middle east. But women are often victims of crime because society holds certain unfair prejudices against them. So why aren't women protected under hate crime law?
And by focusing on certain groups to protect, aren't you engaging in the very same discriminatory behavior that you want to eliminate from society?
04/23/09
04/23/09
ugh, no. colorblindness is NOT a solution to racial oppression.
*sighz*
04/23/09
I must say, even though it is in the context of an equally tragic story, the idea of being "two-spirit" made my cold heart warm.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
Progress is always infuriatingly slow, but thank the powers that be that it happens.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
And the fact that they're just doing their job? Well, bully for them. I hadn't realized that we couldn't criticize people's jobs.
The language used is insulting and demeaning, belies the incredible ignorance exhibited by the general public towards transgenderism, and helps uphold the ignorance of those beliefs. What's more, it could have been MY cousin, so I think my anger is wholly justified.
04/23/09
04/23/09
When I talked about "doing their job" I wish it was that easy. Being a defense lawyer is not just "a job", nor can it be assessed in isolation from the rest of the judicial system. The role of defense lawyers in our society is incredibly important in protecting people from the abuse of state power, from being wrongfully imprisoned, from receiving harsher sentences than they deserve, etc. Going to jail, aside from being placed involuntarily in a psychiatric institution, or being put on death row, is the most serious infringement of civil liberties that can occur to a person. It should not be done lightly and the prosecution must prove every element of the offense and every factor which warrants additional consideration beyond a reasonable doubt. They clearly did that in this case.
The defense has a moral obligation to put forward the strongest defense possible, while adhering to client instructions, which includes trying to mitigate based on the client's state of mind. We have no idea whether a plea was offered, whether it was rejected, what the client told the defense to argue, etc. The larger societal implications are left to the judge/jury to decide. It is not the role of the defense to make normative decisions about how our society should behave towards one another. The reason for this is it would compete with the obligation to mount a vigorous defense and to represent your client to the full extent that the law permits because the focus must be on the client, no matter how despicable or reprehensible their actions are because of the seriousness to which their lives are in jeopardy.
While this may sound callous, especially because Angela died at the hands of this person who was clearly motivated by hatred, but the fact is it is up to the state to prove that Mr. Andrade, did in fact commit this crime.
I think it would be better if we as a society focused on how we all use language so as to ensure that defenses like this one continue to be rebuked. So that the strategy of calling Angela a man would be sure to backfire. But, when it comes to a criminal defense, the only obligation is to the client, and, until there's a complete overhaul of our judicial system, that is how it must be.
So, it's not that I don't think your anger is not justified, but I was trying to show the other side.
BTW, as a law student working in a clinic, I have been on the other side, representing transgendered clients, and attacking vigorously the misuse of language as a violation of one's rights (this is not a criminal case). I've been up against a defense that I think callously and insultingly referred to the client as the wrong gender, and I will be arguing that this is a continuing insult that should not go unsanctioned. The other side is putting forward what they think is the best defense (I happen to disagree) but that is their role in this system and it's up to the decision-maker to decide and all I can do is keep pressing as to why this language should not be tolerated.
04/23/09
04/23/09
04/23/09
*fumes more quietly*
04/23/09
04/13/09
04/13/09
04/13/09
Whereas these fine women roughed it up in Colorado, I defiantly brave the treacherous terrain of Cubicleland, USA. Life here is rife with difficulty. Once I had to refill the coffee pot without any scissors to open the coffee packet. Last summer the building didn't turn down the AC on a particularly chilly day and I needed to procure a sweater from a local clothier.
It's a rough life, someday young lasses will be reading stories about me.