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College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?

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PreposterousHypothesis
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
Here's the ugly truth: we are violent by nature. We hit as children. We get in fights as teens. We enter bar brawls and go to war and threaten with violence as not just a last resort, but the most serious resort. In our culture...hell, in our world, being violent is being powerful. Being violent means that you mean business. And this is why it's impossible to completely have a peaceful world, and settle conflicts with negotiation and rational thinking...because you cannot physically harm someone with your words, or fully convince them of your truth. Punch a motherfucker in the face, and it's obvious this is someone to take seriously.

I'm not saying it's right, or fair, or the way I want it to be. But our most powerful possessions in this world are our lives and bodies, and violence is the only thing that can really pose a true danger to either of these things. I think, much like sex education, it's better to teach people how to channel their violent anger rather than total abstinence, because too many people are taught it's bad bad bad! (just like sex) rather than being like, yes, you are going to want to punch people from time to time. Go to the gym instead. Find a channel to vent the anger.
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Ski Bunny?
07/17/09

@PreposterousHypothesis: Well said. The human animal is violent by nature, and only the individual can overcome his or her own violent impulses. If only people could learn healthy ways to do so, this world would be a bit better.
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Jack_Burton
07/17/09

@PreposterousHypothesis: But also, we resort to violence as youngsters because we lack the vocabulary to express ourselves, the wisdom of understanding, and the temperance of mature self-control; we do it because we don't know better.

And the good part is, we grow up.
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elephante
07/17/09

@PreposterousHypothesis: I'm not sure where I stand on this, and sadly I think you may be right, but to play devil's advocate, I read an interesting argument (the name of the article escapes me but I'll rummage through my drawers) for the opposite point—that violence is societal, specifically Western—which purported that most pre-contact indigenous civilizations (I think it was specific to the Americas) were actually overwhelmingly non-violent with other humans. Despite the warrior stereotypes, they didn't war with other tribes, rape and murder were unheard of, and that it wasn't until Europeans came that everything unraveled. Interesting to think about. On the other hand, I suppose one could suggest that their non-violence is specific to their society and their society successfully suppressed the urges. Who knows. But that idea always stuck with me, since I do think a lot of things we consider human nature are actually just results of incredibly effective socialization.
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Scout
07/17/09

@Jack_Burton: sadly not everyone plays by the same "rules". And while I do not condone violence, I have engaged in violent acts (see fighting as a teen in high school) because i felt helpless; my well-thought out words resulting in nothing but more of the same.

it would be great if people COULD speak to eachother, have the discussion, come to agreeable terms et al.

this has not so much to do with vocabulary to express ourselves as much as it has to do with the ability to comprehend we must often make concessions rather than always be "in control / in power"
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Gavagirl
07/17/09

@Eriu: Specific to the Americas? Did they leave out the mass human sacrifices in South America? Headhunting and cannibalism in North America? I don't understand the determination with which some researchers perpetuate the "noble savage" mythology.
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Etoiles
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
You know, I don't even think I went to a particularly violent school, and I witnessed a lot of physical assaults. Most were drunk guys getting into it with each other, and generally they were pulled apart by other drunk guys and cooled off and not much came of it.

But a good friend of mine was once walking through the center of town (Amherst, MA) with his girlfriend, and a drunk asshole stepped up and started harassing his girlfriend. My friend told the drunk guy to knock it off, and the drunk guy took one HELL of a swing and stove in my friend's cheekbone. It took him several months and a fairly major surgery to recover. (Mr. Drunk of course dissolved into the crowd, and "a brown-haired 5'10" white guy with a baseball hat" did not exactly narrow it down.)
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SarahMC
07/17/09

@Etoiles: This happened to a guy I know just a few weeks ago. Some other guys were yelling shit at his female friends so he asked for a word with him and got his jaw broken as a result.
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wtfox?!
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
Is there a difference between "suffering violence" and "abuse"? It seems like there is--at least, in the way we talk about violence in general, as opposed to abuse as we usually see it employed, which seems to be a specific and chronic form of violence (whether physical, sexual, emotional, etc.) forced on an unwilling participant. Either way, I think the study points to endemic violence in universities, whether socially sanctioned (like hazing) or not, but its language is kind of confusing to me.
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Etoiles
07/17/09

@wtfox?!: I do think "abuse" definitely carries a "repeat" or "chronic" element to it. Getting punched in the face once is not a good thing by any stretch, but I definitely separate a single assault from a pattern of assaults (whether physical, emotional, etc).
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@wtfox?!: That's what has me puzzled, because they are not the same thing. Abuse is systematic, and can incorporate physical violence. "Suffering violence" seems to be more acute. I think mixing the two things muddies the water, and shifts the focus away from the areas that concentration, specifically teaching men/women in abuse relationships that they have other choices, and stemming campus violence by controlling rampant alcohol use (probably the leading cause of most campus violence).
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morninggloria
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
If the USC Trojans football team is mentioned as one of the primary abusers of collegiate men, they must have polled my alma mater's football team.
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lalaland13
07/17/09

@morninggloria: All major college football teams are abused by the BCS. But they keep coming back, because while she is a crazy and unreliable mistress, she is also very rich.
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formergr
07/17/09

@morninggloria: Are you a buckeye?
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J.D.Regent
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
This is really interesting; I've always wanted to understand better why the violence that permeates mens lives seems to be less problematized than what women face.
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@J.D.Regent: "Boys will be boys" pretty much sums it up. Men, for whatever reason, still see violence against other men as a right of passage, and violence against women as a by-product of that. This, despite the fact that violence never really solves anything, and creates a self-perpetuating system of violence.
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SarahMC
07/17/09

@J.D.Regent: I think it's because of the way "masculine" relations are framed within patriarchy. PHMT and all that.
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J.D.Regent
07/17/09

@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: but like, is it a crisis on the level of domestic violence against women that needs to be dealt with? or is it just a fact of life that we need to find different ways of framing whatever gender we are? is it less traumatic to experience violence at the hands of strangers than of loved ones like women deal with?
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elephante
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
I'm interested to know how acquaintance rape fits into this, since it's often not physically violent (beyond the way that it inherently is, of course) and many victims tend to blame themselves or consider it some sort of "mistake" rather than a violent, abusive act. I wonder how many women might classify that type of experience as emotional abuse, if at all.
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PreposterousHypothesis promoted this comment Edited by elephante at 07/17/09 10:59 AM elephante was starred elephante was unstarred

telecomic the thoughtful red panda
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
I can believe this. There was one absolutely royal douchebag at Towson State back in the mid-90s who would seriously drive around the campus and town and look for smaller guys to beat down. He also assaulted a few women, too, and I think that's what ultimately got him expelled from the school. Still, he was about the size of an NHL forward, about 6 feet tall, 200+ pounds, and worked out a lot. God forbid he saw some smaller indie rock guy walking back from the bars on York Road, he'd just beat the hell out of them. He got me one night when out with three of his boys, and broke my nose. Fortunately, I was a lot stronger than I looked, and broke a couple of ribs of one of his thugs. Still, if Towson police weren't right around the corner, I'd hate to imagine how bad of a beating they could have administered to me and my poor 5'5", 130lb roommate Paul.
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lms11
07/17/09

@telecomic the thoughtful red panda: Oh man. And York Rd in Towson is such a nice peaceful place. I go there to escape the wilds of Charles street where I currently live. Man, I'm sorry you had such a miserable time with this guy.
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SarahMC
07/17/09

@telecomic the thoughtful red panda: Damn. My boyf graduated from there.
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telecomic the thoughtful red panda
07/17/09

@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: It's a pretty fine school, and for the most part, a very safe campus. As much as I hated the parking tickets from the bastards, the Towson Campus Police are pretty dilligent and professional - at least back in the mid-90s when I went there. Towson, as a town, occasionally has issues with crime, and I remember hearing about some issues with one or two of the York Road bars a few years ago. Now that I'm closer to DC, I don't hear as much about it. Hope you and your fella are doing well :)
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telecomic the thoughtful red panda
07/17/09

@lms11: I'm one of the luckier ones, though. A busted nose simply ruined my modeling career (insert hilarious laughter), and led to some sinus issues. I heard some horror stories about other victims. Thanks for the kind words, though :)
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Elizabth_Bennet
07/17/09

@telecomic the thoughtful red panda: Jesus Bianca I'm shooting a nose-spray add tomorrow!!
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
07/17/09

In reply to College Men Suffer As Much Violence As Women
I'm a bit curious about how abuse is defined in this study. How does one suffer abuse at the hands of 'acquaintances or friends'? Hazing? Harassment? If it is causing people to go to the clinic it is certainly a problem that needs addressing, but it just doesn't seem to be in the same sphere of partner or child abuse.
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@HeatherNumber1: I wouldn't consider hazing 'abuse,' because the person being abused is asking to be abused, for reasons that escape me (and no, I don't want to debate the Greek system, so don't start something that will make Hortense cross).
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schweppes
07/17/09

@HeatherNumber1: I don't know, I feel like it's a little judgmental to be discounting the importance of the fact that almost a fifth of college student report violence in their lives in the past year because it's not violence that we traditionally see as being problematic. Violence in young people is awful, and only breeds more violence as they grow up.
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Trulymadlyme
07/17/09

@HeatherNumber1: Not surprised. At all. Violence among males is an absolutely normalized. Parents who don't step up and tell their sons that beating the shit out of a skinny little boy is wrong should not be shocked when their son ends up dating raping someone or continues being violent. Fathers who beat the shit out of their sons should not be shocked when their son turns around and asserts his power over the less physically strong. The use of violence to assert power is one the most troubling aspects of masculinity. It sucks. But it's real.
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Edited by Trulymadlyme at 07/17/09 10:54 AM Trulymadlyme was starred Trulymadlyme was unstarred

Annabellie
07/17/09

@Trulymadlyme:Agreed. My boyfriend was bullied throughout high school, often getting the shit kicked out of him by bigger boys. Did the school do anything about it? No, they gave his parents some kind of "boys will be boys" line.
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HarpMadness
07/17/09

@Trulymadlyme: And even my fairly enlightened brother and not-too-enlightened-but-certainly-no-neandrathal sister-in-law allow their two boys to really beat on each other, even encourage it. The two absolutely adore one another, but I don't think that sort of play, when unchecked and to the point of injury sometimes, is all that healthy. I'm afraid it normalizes violence.
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mommy_dearest
07/17/09

@NefariousNewt:You could take that another way and say that partner abuse doesn't really count either since they are choosing to stay with the guy so they must want it somehow, and far be it from us to judge. Hazing is the abuse of someone with less power and can result in serious things like death.
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@mommy_dearest: No. I think clearly, they are two different things. In partner abuse, there is a relationship involved, which may or may not be appropriate for the two people involved. In hazing, you have a person subjecting themselves to abuse in order to fulfill a dubious membership requirement. I honestly do not believe people enter into relationships "to be abused," but certainly anyone who is about to be hazed should know that they are about to be treated in an unbecoming manner, often by total strangers.
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Pandorasvoicebox
07/17/09

@NefariousNewt: I don't want to threadjack and I have no comments on the Greek system in general. But I take issue with your comment that hazing is not abuse because people ask for it. No new pledge knows how exactly he will be hazed. He expects some level of abuse, but nothing that will cause permanent damage. There was a case at my school last year where a friend of mine joined a well-known frat. However, he ended up in the hospital after a really bad hazing incident, and after the fallout he had to transfer to a new school, pushing back his graduation by a year. No one signs up for that. You have to know you will be hazed when you decide to rush, but I wouldn't blame a kid for being surprised when he's seriously injured.
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schweppes
07/17/09

@NefariousNewt: I don't know, again, I know we don't want to get into this, but at least at my school, EVERY chapter claimed they didn't haze, and most didn't start hazing until 2-3 weeks in. By that point, with the amount of time commitment you've put in, the promises of brothe/sisterhood, promise of membership in an organization that has status, etc. - - - there are lots of reasons why otherwise rational persons find themselves in situations where they rationalize abuse - which is not wholly unlike domestic violence. Loads of differences, yes, but there are enough similarities that totally discounting hazing as violence on par with other types of violence might be missing the big picture.
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NefariousNewt
07/17/09

@Pandorasvoicebox:I don't tend to focus on the Greek system so much, because hazing takes place in many venues, including sports teams. But I think that at this point, it is pretty well established what goes on in certain venues at certain times.

Perhaps I am being too hard, but I see no use in such behavior, and look with great contempt on anyone who thinks hazing has a place anytime, anywhere.
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Jack_Burton
07/17/09

@NefariousNewt: Definition of a fraternity - 30 guys laughing, one guy crying.
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nora charles
07/17/09

@NefariousNewt: One point to acknowledge is that there is a huge variation in the degree and frequency of Greek organization hazing. Some Greek orgs don't haze at all (mostly on the sorority side--I've yet to find a fraternity that legitimately does no hazing, although I'm sure that there's one or two out there). Some do only psychological hazing, with no physical hazing. Some do physical hazing in the form of forced alcohol consumption or lap running, but no actual physical assault. Some groups stick to minor, non-physical hazing for most of the pledge period and only switch to the hardcore stuff for the last week before initiation. So all pledges walk in with different expectations and have different amounts of tolerance--"I'll drop out if they haze me at all," "I don't mind drinking but I won't let them touch me," etc. There are infinite variations--but what does seem to be the same is that, in all groups that do haze, there is a gradual ratcheting up of the intensity of the hazing, just as in the abuse cycle. (And unlike in the abuse cycle, there's an end date to the hazing. People are more likely to stick with the abuse if it's only for a limited time and they think they can "stick it out.) And also similar to the abuse cycle, hazing is interspersed with stuff that create positive feelings (like parties), where the pledges are treated well and, especially in the case of sororities, even spoiled (given gifts, flowers, etc.)--so it creates that same "Wow, they really like me, they didn't mean to be so mean on Thursday night!" vibe that occurs in the abuse cycle. There are more similarities between the two, also, like the hazing organizations seeking to isolate pledges from their friends/family (lots of frats force pledges to spend all non-class hours at the frat house during the week before intiation).

The other half of it is that Greek organizations aren't the only ones on campus doing the hazing--athletic organizations do it at comparable numbers, if not more. (Hell, even my alma mater's marching band got in trouble several years in a row for hazing.) And in those cases, it's a hell of a lot tougher to leave than it is to leave a fraternity, since you're dependent on the team for a scholarship and might not even be at the school at all without it.
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ktburrr
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
argh hazing. One of my best friends died on March 1st as a result of this shit. There were so many times where someone could have reached out and stopped what was happening. But instead he was forced to drink copious amounts of alcohol and when he died wearing their jersey, they took it off his dead body to cover their asses before an ambulance arrived. Bitter and angry much? yes.
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ImproperDancing
03/11/09

@ktburrr: I'm so sorry that happened.
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justcallmeangel
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
I almost died in a co-ed house hazing incident. It wasn't fun. That night, or afterward, when the house got shut down.
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Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
03/11/09

@justcallmeangel: I'm so sorry you went through that, dear. There's no excuse at all for hazing.
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tunamelt
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
College marching band hazing is way more intense and fuuuuun. (When you're not a freshman.)
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MerryLilly
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
I don't get any of this :-|
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Endora
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
I don't understand the appeal of joining a sorority at all, but maybe that's because we don't really have them in Europe, although there are some old societies at my uni that have similar hazing rituals.

I mean, a group where you HAVE to be friends with everyone? Surely not everyone really loves each other like sisters?

What's the point of hazing anyway? I wouldn't want to join any group that would humiliate and torture me before they let me in. Although I have a seriously Groucho Marx attitude towards all clubs.
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ImproperDancing
03/10/09

@Moabit: No, you don't HAVE to like everyone...but you have to tolerate them.

There are some bishes in my sorority for sure.
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clevernamehere
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
From the post, I was expecting that people just ignored the women. I wasn't expecting the guys to stay and watch like they were saving it for the spank bank. That's just fucked up.

I always think this show is kind of bullshit when it comes to what the average person would do. Maybe the man at the very begining would have helped the girls, but he was only in town for the guys. Maybe the issue is people who get involved and not gender.
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rednrowdy
03/10/09

In reply to Would You Put A Halt To Hazing?
it's interesting that all the women were thin and considered to be attractive. i wonder if those young guys gaping at them would have the same reaction if the women doing and participating in the hazing weren't so camera-ready by media's standards..
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