I'll cast my vote: Hell yes, I've met MANY guys whom would identify as Guidos--that is, they aren't offended by the term, even if it's not what they call themselves as a qualifier upon introduction.
I grew up outside Philly and went to high school in NJ--both heavily populated with Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans. My husband is a Guido from Queens--wore the Christ head pendant on the gold rope chain, had the big poufy hair, the "dems, dese and dose" accent, all of it. He's as Italian-American as the day is long.
I love the whole package. I imprinted on it early.
Sure this show is cheesy and traffics in certain stereotypes--hello, reality TV. Does "The Real Housewives of Orange County" do the same? Yes. So does Bridezillas, Tool Academy, and Rock of Love.
It's demography raised *almost* to the level of mimicry. But not crossing the line, I don't feel. Italian-Americans are pretty darn assimilated, and I don't think this show will kick off a round of "Guido Bashing" or something similarly perilous.
I really don't see the reason for the outrage. Italians were a maligned minority in America during the early waves of their immigration--as were the Irish, around the same time. They have, however, since become quite mainstream. Most people today would be shocked to hear that it was even hard for Italians to get jobs back then, that's how assimilated they are.
So I don't think 12 or so over-groomed knuckleheads are going to reverse that progress in any way. Are the poster boys and girls for the Italian-Americans? No. But that's not their obligation.
This show is a hot mess, and obviously rife with stereotypes and exploitation, the two genre's in which MTV now specializes.
But two other elements are at play here--one is scripting, which is rampant in MTV and VH1 "reality" shows, and which I noticed obvious examples of many times during the first two episodes, and the other is the fact that people like this (although not necessarily this exagerrated) DO exist.
I know this because I grew up in a primarily Italian-American East Coast community, and at least a third of the people I went to High School with self-identified as Guidos/Guidettes/Stellas.
Maybe it's the bias of having gone to a school where fitting in meant being either WASP-y or Guido, but I don't have that much sympathy for these kids. They are looking for fame and are willing to exagerrate their most foolish and sometimes detestable personality traits in order to obtain it.
Additionally, most of them have horrible attitudes towards members of both the opposite and their own sex, treat each other callously, and bathe in self-satisfaction.
I have to admit, I have no shame in laughing at them. I probably should, since I realize on a intellectual level that MTV should be ashamed for promoting this type of attitude in one respect while simulataneously holding it up for ridicule.
I do hate that these are the images that we choose to spotlight without any accompanying social context. But then I remember that it's fucking MTV.
This is what I've been trying to say since this whole incident occurred. We all know what Chris did was inexcusably wrong. And he's made it clear that he's sorry for what "went down." But if he has nothing important to add to the dialogue of domestic abuse, then please stop giving him a platform on which he has absolutely nothing to contribute from his experience.
We've all learned from celebrity scandal that the public is very forgiving and this will all be swept under the rug in a matter of time, but there are real stories out there with tragic endings that aren't sensationalized. Most of these stories don't involve rich, famous, beautiful people that you could never imagine this happening to. And most abusers don't have the money to trick out their basements, compose apology songs in the recording studio and hide out at their compound until everything blows over, or until it's time to release a new CD.
The NYTimes has a very brief mention of American "reactions" to the case: [www.nytimes.com]
But what I found interesting were the paragraphs at the bottom discussing the Italian process of appeals:
In the Italian justice system, the end of this yearlong trial closes only the first chapter. Unlike in the American system, where appeals center on issues of law, not fact, in the Italian system, defendants can ask to retry the entire case from scratch in the first round of appeals.
From there, the case can go to Italy’s highest court, which rules only on the legal aspects. Unlike the United States Supreme Court, it has no discriminatory power and is required to hear every appeal.
What? A haunting reminder of lessons learned and love lost? It's a haunting reminder that this young man doesn't understand that because he beat the shit out of a person he loved because he wanted to control her, he doesn't deserve to be a role model, he definitely doesn't get to have a relationship with her and he doesn't understand the magnitude of what he's done at all. Keep on being a self-involved douche Chris Brown, keep on. Also, Rhianna isn't the one that I would think is a liar in this case. Just sayin'.
I'm an American who's lived in Europe for 20 years, I'm cynical about ALL press coverge, and I think she's been railroaded. I've read varous stories in a lot of different english speaking press, from all over the world, and the DA's case is shaky. The fact that American jingoism is involved DOESN'T mean she's guilty.
This is my first time commenting (and I don't know if it'll be approved), but I just wanted to say that I hope Amanda Knox's situation doesn't discourage people from traveling abroad. Please don't use her case as a reason to not go out and discover new places and cultures.
Shit happens sometimes but don't let that paralyze you and your ability to experience new things.
@UnknownLegend: Fear is no reason to avoid living. And not just fear of something like this. Fear of getting lost, of being laughed or scoffed at, at not understanding the customs. All of it. You'll never end up doing anything if you let fear dictate your decision making.
@UnknownLegend: If anything, I think people should simply be more encouraged to abide the laws of foreign countries. Even something so seemingly harmless as smoking pot can have much larger consequences depending on the country you're in. Don't take any chances. Really, it's just common sense and safety, and with that you should be fine.
I'm amazed, disappointed and kind of disgusted by all the people saying this makes them scared to travel. I thought Jezebel attracted a higher caliber of commentor. kthxbi
@Diziet_Sma: I find it so confusing. Like...really guys?!?
I backpacked through SE Asia earlier this year and just watched Brokedown Palace last weekend. Even if I had watched it the night before departure, it wouldn't have made me think twice about going.
The chances of something like this randomly happening to the average traveler are so unbelievably slim. C'mon jezzies, you're better than this!
@Diziet_Sma: I'm going to give those commenters the benefit of the doubt and assume that they've never traveled much, or aren't really thinking about what they're saying. Awful, unjust things can happen anywhere (including, as we all should know, in the U.S.), and yes, it would be terrifying to somehow end up in a foreign jail. The extremely small chance of anything like that happening isn't going to make me tear up my passport. I can't imagine a life without travel- what else do you look forward to?
@NellMood: Travel opens your eyes to what other peoples' lives are really like, instead of living abroad through the lens of fiction, or journalism. If you never leave your comfort zone, you never know what you might be missing. If you have an open mind, an intrepid spirit, and a little common sense, there's virtually no limit to where you can go.
@jessacecilia: If anything, seeing that movie and other stories about Americans locked up for drug trafficking just makes me feel like I should decline to carry packages for attractive strangers when traveling abroad.
@Diziet_Sma: I'm just shocked at all the things that are being said here, and the anecdotal 'proofs' of corrupt and criminal and scary Europe.
Are people really that short-sighted?
The only thing to fear is fear itself. Hello!
@jessacecilia: For some reason, Americans have this habit of falling back on xenophobia. Movies like Hostel, Brokedown Palace, shit like The Perfect Getaway...they play on that particular societal concern. This story strikes a chord because for one reason or another, we as a society tend to fear what we don't know or understand. And we fear the idea that others may not know or understand our ways, or conform to them.
This has always been strange to me (and that's not to say I don't enjoy those movies, I'm a horror freak). I've never traveled outside of the country, but I damned well plan on it, movies like those and stories like Knox's aside. I've been off the site since yesterday so I haven't caught a lot of the "I'm never traveling!" comments, but I'm glad someone's speaking up to say it's important not to close off this possibility because of a fluke incident.
As a Brit and a Londoner the coverage I have seen on this case has obviously been biased towards being about Meredith Kercher. She was from London, she went to the university where my brother as well as around a dozen friends attend(ed ). It was a hideous senseless murder of a normal student and that seems to have been lost in alot of this thread.
@kemperboyd: It seems to have been lost in the trial itself, which is a whole other tragedy. You can feel horrible about what happened to Meredith Kercher while also feeling like Amanda Knox might be innocent...the two aren't mutually exclusive.
@kemperboyd: I made this exact point below. I think that the feminist outrage (which is totally warranted) about the trial has overshadowed the fact that there's only one 100% confirmed victim. And that's Kercher.
I agree that while Knox and her family are going through an awful ordeal, it in no way compares to the tragedy faced by the Kercher family. From what I've read about Kercher, she seems like a nice, normal student and a wonderful friend. As such, however, I think she'd be horrified if Knox is indeed innocent and serving jail time and being slandered and having her privacy completely eroded - it seems that apart from some typical roommate issues they got along well. I know I wouldn't like it if one of my housemates were falsely imprisoned for my murder.
There are too many unanswered questions about this case for me to make an armchair verdict (Knox's false accusation especially bothers me), but on forensic evidence it seems more likely that Guede acted alone than any of the prosecution's evolving theories. I find that theory to be far more probable, and ideas about some sort of sex game conspiracy just seem sensationalized and given too much credence by a scandal-hungry press feeding off of anti-American, slut-shaming fervor.
This verdict just doesn't seem to be justice for Kercher, and continued legal proceedings and press coverage that are sure to happen now can't be good for her family's closure.
Fuck this smug, clueless, self-involved, vicious, self-pitying, pathologically selfish, emotionally stunted whiny asshole. Go away, Chris Brown. No one with two brain cells is buying what you're selling. And anyone who does can't ever say they weren't warned about what comes next. He beat the living shit out of a woman half his size, and he isn't at all sorry about it. He will do this again the second he gets a chance. Fuck. this. guy.
There's just nothing he can say that can take it away, and all this talk makes me think that he believes--or his handlers believe--that if they can just hit on the right story, they'll be able to bring it around. But they can't, because there isn't any such thing.
12/06/09
I grew up outside Philly and went to high school in NJ--both heavily populated with Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans. My husband is a Guido from Queens--wore the Christ head pendant on the gold rope chain, had the big poufy hair, the "dems, dese and dose" accent, all of it. He's as Italian-American as the day is long.
I love the whole package. I imprinted on it early.
Sure this show is cheesy and traffics in certain stereotypes--hello, reality TV. Does "The Real Housewives of Orange County" do the same? Yes. So does Bridezillas, Tool Academy, and Rock of Love.
It's demography raised *almost* to the level of mimicry. But not crossing the line, I don't feel. Italian-Americans are pretty darn assimilated, and I don't think this show will kick off a round of "Guido Bashing" or something similarly perilous.
I really don't see the reason for the outrage. Italians were a maligned minority in America during the early waves of their immigration--as were the Irish, around the same time. They have, however, since become quite mainstream. Most people today would be shocked to hear that it was even hard for Italians to get jobs back then, that's how assimilated they are.
So I don't think 12 or so over-groomed knuckleheads are going to reverse that progress in any way. Are the poster boys and girls for the Italian-Americans? No. But that's not their obligation.
12/06/09
12/05/09
But two other elements are at play here--one is scripting, which is rampant in MTV and VH1 "reality" shows, and which I noticed obvious examples of many times during the first two episodes, and the other is the fact that people like this (although not necessarily this exagerrated) DO exist.
I know this because I grew up in a primarily Italian-American East Coast community, and at least a third of the people I went to High School with self-identified as Guidos/Guidettes/Stellas.
Maybe it's the bias of having gone to a school where fitting in meant being either WASP-y or Guido, but I don't have that much sympathy for these kids. They are looking for fame and are willing to exagerrate their most foolish and sometimes detestable personality traits in order to obtain it.
Additionally, most of them have horrible attitudes towards members of both the opposite and their own sex, treat each other callously, and bathe in self-satisfaction.
I have to admit, I have no shame in laughing at them. I probably should, since I realize on a intellectual level that MTV should be ashamed for promoting this type of attitude in one respect while simulataneously holding it up for ridicule.
I do hate that these are the images that we choose to spotlight without any accompanying social context. But then I remember that it's fucking MTV.
12/05/09
12/05/09
This is what I've been trying to say since this whole incident occurred. We all know what Chris did was inexcusably wrong. And he's made it clear that he's sorry for what "went down." But if he has nothing important to add to the dialogue of domestic abuse, then please stop giving him a platform on which he has absolutely nothing to contribute from his experience.
We've all learned from celebrity scandal that the public is very forgiving and this will all be swept under the rug in a matter of time, but there are real stories out there with tragic endings that aren't sensationalized. Most of these stories don't involve rich, famous, beautiful people that you could never imagine this happening to. And most abusers don't have the money to trick out their basements, compose apology songs in the recording studio and hide out at their compound until everything blows over, or until it's time to release a new CD.
12/05/09
Bloody heck. This was the first time I'd watched him, at all, and what a douche.
12/05/09
But what I found interesting were the paragraphs at the bottom discussing the Italian process of appeals:
In the Italian justice system, the end of this yearlong trial closes only the first chapter. Unlike in the American system, where appeals center on issues of law, not fact, in the Italian system, defendants can ask to retry the entire case from scratch in the first round of appeals.
From there, the case can go to Italy’s highest court, which rules only on the legal aspects. Unlike the United States Supreme Court, it has no discriminatory power and is required to hear every appeal.
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
Shit happens sometimes but don't let that paralyze you and your ability to experience new things.
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
I backpacked through SE Asia earlier this year and just watched Brokedown Palace last weekend. Even if I had watched it the night before departure, it wouldn't have made me think twice about going.
The chances of something like this randomly happening to the average traveler are so unbelievably slim. C'mon jezzies, you're better than this!
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
;)
12/05/09
Are people really that short-sighted?
The only thing to fear is fear itself. Hello!
12/05/09
This has always been strange to me (and that's not to say I don't enjoy those movies, I'm a horror freak). I've never traveled outside of the country, but I damned well plan on it, movies like those and stories like Knox's aside. I've been off the site since yesterday so I haven't caught a lot of the "I'm never traveling!" comments, but I'm glad someone's speaking up to say it's important not to close off this possibility because of a fluke incident.
12/05/09
:)
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09
I agree that while Knox and her family are going through an awful ordeal, it in no way compares to the tragedy faced by the Kercher family. From what I've read about Kercher, she seems like a nice, normal student and a wonderful friend. As such, however, I think she'd be horrified if Knox is indeed innocent and serving jail time and being slandered and having her privacy completely eroded - it seems that apart from some typical roommate issues they got along well. I know I wouldn't like it if one of my housemates were falsely imprisoned for my murder.
There are too many unanswered questions about this case for me to make an armchair verdict (Knox's false accusation especially bothers me), but on forensic evidence it seems more likely that Guede acted alone than any of the prosecution's evolving theories. I find that theory to be far more probable, and ideas about some sort of sex game conspiracy just seem sensationalized and given too much credence by a scandal-hungry press feeding off of anti-American, slut-shaming fervor.
This verdict just doesn't seem to be justice for Kercher, and continued legal proceedings and press coverage that are sure to happen now can't be good for her family's closure.
12/05/09
12/05/09
12/05/09