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If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Can Someone Please Explain Why Protecting Fashion Designers From Knockoffs Is A Worthy Cause For This Congress?

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ellaesther
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Thankfully, I don't have the time today to obsess about Gaza like I did on Saturday (see: that thread!), but I will add this to the mix:

It's not even like Israel HAD to declare Gaza a closed military zone. Israel has controlled Gaza's borders since 1967, and since the 2005 withdrawal, has essentially treated them like a noose, to tighten or loosen a bitty-smidge, at will. No one and nothing goes in or out without Israeli military say so, down to and including the plastic bags which the international food agencies use to distribute emergency food to the hundreds of thousands of Gazans who are hungry. And if that's not occupation, I don't fucking know what is.

And just to clarify, for all those who skipped Saturday and/or are foaming at the mouth right now: I'm Israeli-American Jewish, lived in Tel Aviv for 14 years, witnessed Hamas terrorism up close and personal, go back to visit at least once a year, and am an active member of a Conservative shul outside of Chicago. And am married to a Jerusalemite, to boot.
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PilgrimSoul
12/29/08

@ellaesther: It sucks that you have to add that last paragraph to justify your sane and thoughtful analysis. :( Although so many people profess universalism, they seem to find it hard to put it into practice; it's the tendency to assert ownership of the issue ("My friends! My family!") that is impeding a rational discussion about the Middle East, in my view, not some ancient grudge. Good, old-fashioned, human stubbornness is at the heart of it.
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ellaesther
12/29/08

@PilgrimSoul: Sigh, I know. I do it all the time, though, because it just seems the wiser course.... (And thank you for your kind words!)

Yesterday, my husband (the Jerusalemite!) was fulminating about how sick he is of people needing to say that they condemn Hamas, when a) duh, and b) the power imbalance is so insane. How much he wishes people could just talk about that, because that is the salient fact.
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JennyJazz
12/29/08

@ellaesther: I wholeheartedly agree with you on 99% of your points. I too am Jewish and lived in Israel for a year. The only thing that bothers me about your post is that yes, Israel is culpable in blocking aid to the residents in Gaza, but so is the Palestinian leadership. Look at Arafat...look at how he squandered so much aid money to benefit himself. Otherwise, I agree.
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ellaesther
12/29/08

@JennyJazz: Well, I guess I feel like that falls into what my husband was complaining about yesterday.

Sure, the Palestinians have been saddled with/have saddled themselves with truly terrible leaders over the years. Absolutely, no argument from me.

But the damage done to Palestinian society, infrastructure, families, culture, etc, etc, not to mention sheer number of dead by Israeli hands is so enormous that Palestinian culpability positively pales in comparison. And we (Israel and America in this case) often just compound the problem.

Arafat is a great example, in fact: By the time that Israel had Arafat under siege, he was deeply, deeply unpopular. But one sure way to make a hero out of someone is to trap him in his home and shell it -- virtually no Palestinian would have been willing to turn on him under those circumstances. (Look at the Democrats on this very site who said "Hey, I hate Bush, but no one throws a shoe at my President!" Then imagine you're Palestinian, and it's Arafat).

Oh, and in an aside, Arafat wasn't personally corrupt. He used aid to hold on to power, but not to buy fancy cars or whatever. It's a very small point, I know, but I'm a geek, so these things come out.

Anyway, didn't I say I wouldn't obsess about this today...? I'm a liar.
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BearDownCBears
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
"Many historians will judge the 2008 Detroit Lions as one of the best teams in NFL history."

--Condoleeza Rice
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Maritsa
12/29/08

@BearDownCBears: Awesome.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Also, just to get back on the Condi crazy train for a second, I know they've been trying this whole legacy spin but she should know that history really isn't big on talking points (especially these days when we're actually looking at more than just what some old white dudes from Europe said about things).
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Jamie Sommers
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Did President Bush decide to mislead the country to war with Iraq because he honestly thought that history's judgment was that it would be all okay?

Yeah. Cuz that worked out really well for Johnson.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Way to sell a woman candidacy by saying stupid, sexist things, Caroline. How bout this, sweets? Why don't you keep raising money for NYC schools and being generally rich and out of touch? I don't want my non-appointed Guv (who I like) giving you a Senate seat. Oh and maybe try and say you would support the DEMOCRAT for mayor?? I mean we all know you're in Bloomie's pocket...but that dude ran as a Republican, you'll recall.

Next time maybe try doing your civic duty first and VOTING...which you neglected to do even when it was for the seat you want. Oh also, Carolyn Maloney is a much much better choice than you. MUCH.

Oh
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hollygirl
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: Sing it!
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bluebears
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: she didn't vote? jeez louise.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@bluebears: and she had no idea! She's only donated to Hillary (before her endorsement of Obama) and then has never really donated to Democrats in the state. Not to mention she didn't vote for Patrick Moynihan! Whose seat she now wants! ARGH!
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bluebears
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: the irritating part is that you know she's still gonna get the seat. the complaints of the unwashed masses are like white noise to her and other power brokers in government.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@bluebears: But is Gov. Paterson a power broker? I'm not so sure... I think he might consider her campaigning for this as a negative, and that might tip the nod away from her.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: I think she will not get it. Especially because that means she has to actually run for it in 2010 and she'll get beat badly.
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PilgrimSoul
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: 100% co-sign! Seriously, somebody at the Times needs to wake up and be like, "what the hell? why is this even a serious suggestion?" Political office should not be treated like a birthright. Her whole "campaign" has been enormously offensive to me.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@PilgrimSoul: and I like her! She is ruining it!So offensive. Seriously I don't care who your Dad was or how beloved your mother was or anything of the sort. Run for office. You don't get to go from private citizen to Senator by your last name only. There are many others that have worked their way up the ranks.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: Yes, I liked her too. But do I support her candidacy? No. I was on the fence at first and reserved judgment but at this point she is not getting my support. Like it would even matter, as this is by appointment.
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morninggloria
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
I thought that both the Jewish and Muslim god don't like killing all that much?

So let's get them all together and be like, hey guys, remember how your god says that you're not supposed to kill each other? There isn't an asterisk. You're just not supposed to do it. Eh-eh-eh-eh! No. No killing. Not even if you're very very mad.
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bluebears
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
re Saltsman: he probably thought the CD would be a huge hit, seeing how Rush played it CONSTANTLY throughout the election.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@bluebears: Note that was Rush the bloviating windbag, not Rush, the excellent Canadian power trio.
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bluebears
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: I am ALWAYS getting those two confused.
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ucelluccia
12/29/08

@bluebears: Want to know something horrible? I work at a bookstore in OK, and yesterday we had a guy come in looking for that CD. Thank goodness we got to explain that no, we didn't carry it--he seemed confused as to why the whole staff was suddenly just staring at him like we couldn't believe what was happening.
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braak: You are, as usual, completely correct.
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Hmmm. History looks fondly on Themistocles, for tricking the Athenians into using their extra money to build warships, rather than spending it on...whatever luxuries Athenians spent their money on. Prostitutes, I'd assume.

Maybe we just need twenty-five hundred years of perspective before Bush stops looking like a complete and utter shitsucker?
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Too Hot For TNR
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
70 percent of American Jews want, like Pavement, two states. Say whatever you like. It's only one-half of one percent that tries to set the boundaries of the debate rightward.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

@Too Hot For TNR: Isn't that pretty much the case with everything though, that most people favor some reasonable middle ground but you have the lunatic fringe pushing it in some insane direction because they yell loudly and care about nothing else.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@Too Hot For TNR: Too true.
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Too Hot For TNR
12/29/08

@SinisterRouge: Our baby will be proud of her Jewish heritage, and will not labor under the crushing burdens of history.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@Too Hot For TNR: Two states!
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@Too Hot For TNR: Post-middle east baby.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
It's amazing how so many religions claim to be filled with peace and yet people go to war over them so often and usually to bloody extremes.
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Flowers For Algernon
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Isreal has free reign to terrorize terrorist groups? Makes sense to me.
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ellaesther
12/29/08

@Flowers For Algernon: A) Israel

B) They're not terrorizing a terrorist group. They are terrorizing the whole of Gaza. (Note, among other things, that the bombing started when kids were going to and from school)

And I re-iterate, for the record: I'm Israeli.

You might want to go to websites like that for Combatants for Peace, Israeli and Palestinian ex-combatants who work together toward a two-state solution [www.combatantsforpeace.org]
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Note to Caroline Kennedy: you probably should not have said that. If your skin is not thick enough, it might be a good time to withdraw your interest in the Senate seat.
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DangerMouse
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: Seriously, it was just a softball question, JUST MAKE SOMETHING UP THAT SOUNDS GOOD.

Sheesh.
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bluebears
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: it just irritates men no end how she supposedly wants to be in politics but yet feels like she doesn't have to "play the game." She's somehow above that.
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bluebears
12/29/08

@bluebears: irritates ME no end. sorry...its early still apparently.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@bluebears: There was a lot of angst over her wanting to be considered, to which I replied, "Why shouldn't she?" Now that she's in consideration, she has to lay her cards on the table and show why she deserves to be considered, and frankly, she's doing a poor job of it, which has me a bit concerned.
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SinisterRouge
12/29/08

@bluebears: Not to mention that Governor Paterson SPECIFICALLY said he wanted no one to campaign for the seat until he decided because Hillary has not yet been confirmed. And what does she do? Campaigns. OH and Bloomberg is totally putting pressure on the Governor to appoint her.

Such a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like this at all.
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bluebears
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: Yeah, I mean I don't love political appointments, particularly for people who have never really been involved politically but if she had come out and made a persuasive case for herself I would have been sway-able, she is an intelligent woman who has worked for good causes her whole adult life. But now...I'm not impressed.
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bluebears
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
I read part of the Kennedy transcript and I thought she came off as incredibly out of touch.
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AthertonMerriweather
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
Caroline Kennedy should just answer the fluff ball questions they throw at her. That way she can always blame the reporters for not asking her tough questions. I understand she wants to prove herself, but she's less likely to make a blunder if she sticks to the easy questions.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

In reply to If Caroline Kennedy Thinks Ladymag Writers Are Stupid, What Does She Think Of Their Readers?
If anyone thinks that the current Gaza situation is somehow politically motivated, they are ignoring the millenia of enmity that has flowed between the Jews and the many races of the Middle East. It doesn't matter who is in the White House -- Hamas wants to kill Jews, and Israel wants to wipe out Hamas. All the diplomacy in the world is not going to end this 2000-year-old-plus blood feud.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: However, the political aspect does give them some more rope to run around with.

Also, haven't they figured out that bombing people doesn't really stop rocket attacks. I mean let's be honest, did they learn nothing from The Untouchables: when you pull a knife, they pull a gun. When you send one of their guys to the hospital, they send you to the morgue.
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Too Hot For TNR
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: Come on. No one's fated to endless war. Why was there a Geneva Initiative if there's a predetermined ethnic conflict? Why did Egypt make peace? Why has Jordan had an unacknowledged de facto peace with Israel for decades? This is entirely political.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@rmric0: Precisely. Nothing is going to bring this to an end save divine intervention.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: I think we should just start air dropping copies of Civil Disobedience.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@Too Hot For TNR: Because in all those cases, you had reasonable people making rational choices. In the case of the current Israeli government and Hamas, you have fanatics, bent on the destruction of the other, each seeing the other as an impediment to their future glory.

And don't think for a second that just because some Arab nations have been peaceful for a while does not mean they cannot change. Mubarak cannot hold onto power forever, anymore that Saddam Hussein could. It only takes a well-organized cadre of fanatics to overthrow the current order (see Iran, circa the late 70s).
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: Isn't that why other parties, ostensibly rational parties, need to help foster alternatives to those fanatical regimes. Hamas gets a lot of its support because they're feeding people and have a large branch of social programs in addition to their militant activities (to my understanding), alternatives to that need to be created that make sure people aren't reliant on a belligerent party for their basic needs.
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NefariousNewt
12/29/08

@rmric0: Yes, but its hard for the rational parties to try and help the Palestinians when both Israel and Hamas won't let them, and insist on shooting at them when they try. The only way this can end is if the Palestinians clamp down on Hamas and the Israeli people elect a more moderate government, one that can negotiate in good faith and keep the hawks under control.
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rmric0.wedding.photographer.and.manny
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: This is very true, it's hard to help people when other people are shooting at you or running you over with bulldozers.
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SunburnedCounsel
12/29/08

@NefariousNewt: There is nothing inevitable about this conflict, and it hasn't been going on for 2000 years. There were plenty of Jews and Muslims who lived together, worked together, and protected each other over the last 2000 years, and the modern conflict wasn't constructed until the twentieth century, along with the Arab cultural identity. The myth that this is ages old and irretractable is part of what reinforces the current polarisation.
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