I'm not sure about breast cancer, and I live in Canada, not the U.S. But, when I was 18 years old I was diagnosed with high-grade cervical dysplasia, one of those maybe-sort-of-almost-could-be-cancer diagnoses that can come out of a pap test. Because the cell-changes happened unusually quickly, and were closer to cancer than not, I underwent 3 invasive surgical procedures, and it was even suggested to me at one point that I may have to have a hysterectomy (which thank god, didn't happen.) These surgeries were followed by (extremely painful, no anesthetic) biopsies every 4 months for 3 years afterwards.
I never developed cancer. But, what I did develop were a series of on-going symptoms that resulted from excessive, and reckless surgical procedures. More invasive procedures were then performed to "fix" the problems caused by the previous surgeries. They didn't help, in fact, they made things worse, and no doctor really seems to be able to give me an answer as to whether the symptoms (among them, pain and bleeding) will ever subside. A gynecologist recently described my cervix as "mangled" and then told me that all of the surgeries were likely unnecessary, that it is doubtful I would have developed cancer at all, and the procedures done to avoid it probably caused more harm than good. I may not be able to carry a pregnancy to term. Great.
On the other hand, my father died from undetected testicular cancer. He was otherwise totally healthy, and 46 years old. He probably could have lived if they had caught it before it metastasized.
In any case, two experiences which leave me torn between knowing the harms of acting on any hint that one may have cancer, and not acting soon enough. I don't know what the answer is.
The data indicating that BSEs and mammograms don't necessarily save lives have been available for years and years. The new guidelines are not a sudden paradigm shift. This has been building for a long time.
Mammograms are hard to interpret, and young breasts are very dense. These two things combined mean that early mammograms != early detection.
These guidelines are very important for an individual's risk/benefit analysis. You should understand what you will be missing out on if you don't get the mammogram, or don't get one every year (less than you think). You should know what the actual benefit is if you do get one every year (also less than you think).
I had a false positive when I was 40. It took two surgeons' opinions and at least two follow-up mammograms during the next year to alleviate my anxiety over it. It was attributed to the density of my breasts given my age. During that time I read European studies that questioned the value of routine mammograms for women under 50 for this reason. Meanwhile, American women have been having the idea of self-exams and routine mammograms drummed into our heads for over a decade so now we don't know who or what to believe.
The decision should rest with a woman and her health care provider, but you can be sure that insurance companies are going to adopt this study as justification to alter their coverage of mammograms as soon as the initial furor dies down. This same panel issued a study last year that our insurer used as the basis to deny coverage to my husband on a procedure that they had covered three years earlier.
Insurers argue that because medicine is constantly evolving they reserve the right to review and alter their coverage as they deem appropriate subject to their ongoing review of medical literature. It's the old "medical necessity" clause that, as my husband put it after reading our plan's language, is big enough drive a truck through. So I will not be surprised to get a memo in the coming year saying that routine mammograms are no longer covered because the science doesn't support it.
Insurance companies giveth and insurance companies can taketh away, unfortunately.
Mammograms are one thing. They're painful, uncomfortable, and costly. But self-exam? Why on earth would they recommend against that? I can see some research that makes a statement of fact that it only catches one in a million cancers or something, but who cares? It costs nothing, you're in the shower anyway... Raise that arm up and feel your boobies ladies! It can't hurt!
Edited by the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene at 11/19/09 7:25 PM
the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene was starred
the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene was unstarred
I will say to them what I said to my sister's lazy gyno, "If our aunts had waited til they were 40 for their first mammograms, they would have died of breast cancer. Oh yeah, they did and they died. So shut up and give her the damn test."
Don't make me have to go back for every appointment until she's 50. I only have the one sister, and I am lucky to have such a sweet one. She, on the other hand, is happy that I am a loud bitch when it comes to our health.
@BetteD: Gladly. Thanks to breast cancer, I am down to a sister and a mom for close female relatives, and it is chipping away at my cousins. I am adamant that I NEED my sister to get old with me.
I worked for a natl. cancer org, and I knew plenty of women who got cancer before 40, found lumps themselves, and others who found cancers through mammograms. What ever happened to the old adage "Better safe than sorry?" There are no "harms" to having a biopsy done or having regular mammograms.
@badmutha: All medical procedures, including biopsies and mammograms, have risks. This group's findings indicate that for a certain group, 40-49 with no increased risk of breast cancer due to genetic mutation or chest radiation, the risks outweigh the benefits.
It's not as simple as "better safe than sorry;" more medicine isn't always better. I don't have the expertise to dig into their methodology completely, but they seem to have been pretty specific in their findings about who this applies to and who it doesn't.
I had a conversation with my nurse practitioner, who works with cancer patients, about these guidelines today. She doesn't know how she feels about them yet. But she said some interesting things, amongst them, that it is believed that there are certain cancerous cells that may begin to grow in women's breasts in their 40's that actually would go away on their own without treatment. In those cases, treatment is unnecessary. And the treatment we are talking about, a mastectomy, chemotherapy and radiation, is life changing. In fact, chemotherapy and radiation may actually shorten your life. In those cases, it would actually be better for a woman to never know she has the cancerous cells.
She also said that when you look at survival rates after detection and treatment, there is some evidence suggesting that the reason the number of years of survival is higher for women in their 40's is because they are in their 40's and therefore there are all those years of recovery between when it was discovered and when it would have been discovered if they didn't have a mammogram until their 50's. This is because many cancers detected when women are in their 40's grow so slow that they are still treatable 5 or more years later.
Of course, she also said there are women whose lives have been saved or extended by early detection of aggressive cancers.
To me, this is what you have to balance. It is not just money and there are health risks either way.
@Lymed: I'm in the same boat as your NP which is why I haven't said too much on the issue. I will say that I have decided not to get screened until I'm 50 because I have read the studies and I don't believe that in my case mammograms are warranted. Mammograms are also an imperfect tool (although the technology is improved) - especially on younger, denser breasts. That said, they are fairly inexpensive and the radiation exposure is minimal, so it's all about the risk and benefit for each patient.
Medicine is a science, but also an art - the art is taking the science and applying it to the community you serve and the individual in front of you.
@boobookitt: Your last sentence is perfect. Guidelines can be phenomenal tools. But every patient is different and there are even different types of breast cancers. The problem is not in the guidelines themselves, they are in insurance companies misusing guidelines to deny treatments and tests.
The bottom line to me is we need more research. If there are some breast cancers that actually reverse and go away on their own, perhaps we can learn from them less harmful ways to eradicate the cancer.
@Lymed: I work at the National Cancer Institute, and you're absolutely correct. I had a discussion with a colleague who's a foremost expert on breast cancer, and she said the same thing.
What about improving the affordability and access to MRI's that are (1) less prone to false positives; and (2) more nuanced in the size of tumor it detects?
Also, this is going to be the nail in the coffin for health care insurance reform, from what it seems. It's only a matter of time before this gets truncated into a right wing talking point. I mean, don't we recall what they did about the "old people" killing meme?
@Trulymadlyme: The MRI thing confuses the hell out of me. They sent my mom for one of those after a red flag on the mammogram, but I always wondered why they didn't just do that in the first place if they were going to need to do one anyway on the off chance something showed up.
@CynicalPink: Insurance rarely covers breast MRI's which make it insanely expensive (hello the whole purpose for insurance reform).
The breast cancer fuck up will be the end of the health care mess. It'll fizzle or die because the president and Congress are taking way too long and continue to make stupid, unnecessary findings like this commission. The timing of this whole mess just seems...opportune?
Okay you're going to get mad but, you know what? Why is the Obama administration CONSISTENTLY letting health care discussions veer off in this direction, issuing only the occasional milquetoast denial? I realize this is probably faith that people can see through the crazy; but if Lou Dobb's interview with Jon Stewart was any evidence last night, far too many of them can't, AND THAT'S A PROBLEM.
@PilgrimSoul: I'm not mad, I'm agreeing. They had an effective infrastructure in place to deal with this crap during the election. I'm boggled as to why they would not continue to use it now, when they apparently need it most. Letting the other side control the conversation is not the way to get your bill passed, or indeed, anything else done. You have to be out there every day pushing your own message and shooting theirs down. The GOP, which ostensibly understands nothing else, understands that. And that is why they win. Obama needs to understand it if he wants to get anything done.
@Hooplehead: Thank you for saying this so well. I supported teh administration, and continue to support it, but letting the GOP hijack media taglines and define what gets placed in front of people's eyes is a sure fire way to fail on every initiative. Way to let them define the scope of the problem - scare tactics work and unless there is a strong statement of confident opposition, they are going to continue working. I felt the same way with the lack of correction or strong stance to counter the whole "offing Granny" fiasco. I helped fund the stimulus package, can't I step in and hire better PR for the White House? It's the effing WHITE HOUSE, someone out there should be up to the task, no?
@fancypantsftw: You'd like to think that people aren't stupid enough to fall for obvious garbage like the "death panels" meme. But the GOP has shown us clearly that we can't take for granted that the American public has any sort of critical thinking skills or healthy skepticism towards the pronouncements of politicians anymore.
Unless they're Democrats, in which case, hard proof isn't remotely enough.
Well, I guess maybe Lindsay can't hurt the show too much as long as they don't give her fangs. I guess they could make her be Alcide's super bitchy ex girlfriend at least (forgetting her name at the moment; one half-spoiler is enough) #nicolerichietwitter
@noisy doll: Debbie Pelt...and she would actually be PERFECT for that part (even though Alan Ball says he doesn't believe in stunt casting. boo!) #nicolerichietwitter
@Phyllis Nefler: Hahahaha, she would be perfect for that OR for Debbie's sister, Sandra. That way she would only have to be on once or twice! #nicolerichietwitter
Pete Wentz: YOU ARE A FATHER GROW UP. I don't know why, but the idea of this idiot going up the escalator in the wrong direction really pissed me off. #nicolerichietwitter
@fridaphile: I know, right? It is freaking dangerous to him and anyone who might be on it at the time. I have seen a kid get a shoelace stuck in an elevator like this (causing the plain clothes security officer to FREAK because he'd had a child get their HAND stuck in the thing the week before causing serious injury). It's not clever and it's not funny. #nicolerichietwitter
@toastandlove: Sorry, I had to give up WoW in order to make it through college with a reasonable GPA-- and I never played Tauren. I should have asked the husband!
11/20/09
I never developed cancer. But, what I did develop were a series of on-going symptoms that resulted from excessive, and reckless surgical procedures. More invasive procedures were then performed to "fix" the problems caused by the previous surgeries. They didn't help, in fact, they made things worse, and no doctor really seems to be able to give me an answer as to whether the symptoms (among them, pain and bleeding) will ever subside. A gynecologist recently described my cervix as "mangled" and then told me that all of the surgeries were likely unnecessary, that it is doubtful I would have developed cancer at all, and the procedures done to avoid it probably caused more harm than good. I may not be able to carry a pregnancy to term. Great.
On the other hand, my father died from undetected testicular cancer. He was otherwise totally healthy, and 46 years old. He probably could have lived if they had caught it before it metastasized.
In any case, two experiences which leave me torn between knowing the harms of acting on any hint that one may have cancer, and not acting soon enough. I don't know what the answer is.
11/19/09
Mammograms are hard to interpret, and young breasts are very dense. These two things combined mean that early mammograms != early detection.
These guidelines are very important for an individual's risk/benefit analysis. You should understand what you will be missing out on if you don't get the mammogram, or don't get one every year (less than you think). You should know what the actual benefit is if you do get one every year (also less than you think).
11/19/09
The decision should rest with a woman and her health care provider, but you can be sure that insurance companies are going to adopt this study as justification to alter their coverage of mammograms as soon as the initial furor dies down. This same panel issued a study last year that our insurer used as the basis to deny coverage to my husband on a procedure that they had covered three years earlier.
Insurers argue that because medicine is constantly evolving they reserve the right to review and alter their coverage as they deem appropriate subject to their ongoing review of medical literature. It's the old "medical necessity" clause that, as my husband put it after reading our plan's language, is big enough drive a truck through. So I will not be surprised to get a memo in the coming year saying that routine mammograms are no longer covered because the science doesn't support it.
Insurance companies giveth and insurance companies can taketh away, unfortunately.
11/19/09
I also thought mammograms were kind of passé anyway - I've had one surgery and two biopsies on fibriods and never had a mammogram - always an ultrasound.
11/19/09
11/19/09
Don't make me have to go back for every appointment until she's 50. I only have the one sister, and I am lucky to have such a sweet one. She, on the other hand, is happy that I am a loud bitch when it comes to our health.
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
It's not as simple as "better safe than sorry;" more medicine isn't always better. I don't have the expertise to dig into their methodology completely, but they seem to have been pretty specific in their findings about who this applies to and who it doesn't.
11/19/09
She also said that when you look at survival rates after detection and treatment, there is some evidence suggesting that the reason the number of years of survival is higher for women in their 40's is because they are in their 40's and therefore there are all those years of recovery between when it was discovered and when it would have been discovered if they didn't have a mammogram until their 50's. This is because many cancers detected when women are in their 40's grow so slow that they are still treatable 5 or more years later.
Of course, she also said there are women whose lives have been saved or extended by early detection of aggressive cancers.
To me, this is what you have to balance. It is not just money and there are health risks either way.
11/19/09
Medicine is a science, but also an art - the art is taking the science and applying it to the community you serve and the individual in front of you.
11/19/09
The bottom line to me is we need more research. If there are some breast cancers that actually reverse and go away on their own, perhaps we can learn from them less harmful ways to eradicate the cancer.
11/19/09
#tips
11/20/09
11/19/09
Also, this is going to be the nail in the coffin for health care insurance reform, from what it seems. It's only a matter of time before this gets truncated into a right wing talking point. I mean, don't we recall what they did about the "old people" killing meme?
[www.rightactionforwomen.org]
11/19/09
On NPR yesterday there was a story about how in Japan, MRIs cost about $160.00. Here? 10 times that, if not more. It's ridiculous.
11/19/09
11/19/09
The breast cancer fuck up will be the end of the health care mess. It'll fizzle or die because the president and Congress are taking way too long and continue to make stupid, unnecessary findings like this commission. The timing of this whole mess just seems...opportune?
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
11/19/09
Unless they're Democrats, in which case, hard proof isn't remotely enough.
11/04/09
11/04/09
I'd hate to think I looked like as much of a toolio as you did. #nicolerichietwitter
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/03/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/03/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
11/04/09
/goes back to nerd corner #nicolerichietwitter
11/04/09
/says the BElf hunter #nicolerichietwitter