Alright, I've already mention this a bit here and there, but donating to AIDS charities and trying to get pro-choice legislation passed is NOT necessarily selfless. Just because a guy wants you to be able to have an abortion, it doesn't mean he wants you to "have license to your own body". He might just not want a damn kid! (I'll bet Tucker Max is pro-choice, too!) And just because some one doesn't want an AIDS epidemic doesn't mean they're worried about womens' health. They might just not want AIDS!
Most major corporations make donations to charity and political figures (sometimes for ethical reasons, sometimes for tax write-offs), but isn't it a pretty smooth move for a magazine that sells sexuality to make it safer for people to have sex? Doesn't less fear about sex create a more pro-sex atmosphere, thereby making porn less likely to be attacked?
I'm not saying we shouldn't take the money, and I'm not saying they aren't sincere about the charities they support. I'm just saying, consider the source- they BENEFIT from donating to these charities for a number of reasons.
@PrisonBreakShaker: I can't really say that I understand the point, but, corporate and private donations are different beasts. I don't think her philanthropy makes her a feminist, just as I don't think her profession makes her NOT a feminist.
@Penny: My point is just that people who donate to charities are not necessarily self-less in doing so, and Playboy donating to sex-positive movements benefits them. This does not make them champions of womens' rights.
Thanks for the post, Anna. I'm a nude model - not for Playboy - but for other similar sites and institutions.
One thing I want to remind Jezzies of is that it would be very helpful for everyone to stop bashing on the women in this industry. We aren't all empty headed buffoons. The women I have worked with usually hold a couple jobs - they run families - they work for the police department, they teach - one thing I am excited about it that many of us own our own successful businesses. I have never met so many independent female business owners as I have working in the modeling industry.
You can tell yourself we don't have any dreams beyond being a centerfold, but most women I have met just see it as a high paid, fun way to make things happen.
I've also seen women working from the inside to effect changes that don't look obvious from seeing a glossy magazine. In reality, there is a need and a space for a variety of healthy perspectives on sexuality and women's bodies. There are sites with models who don't look like the stereotypical blonde with big tits. I work as a photographer and model for one that is run by a woman computer programmer. If any of you are interested in how your perspective on sexuality and the female form could influence these sorts of industries I would encourage you to look into it - models, stylists, make up artists, photographers, web designers, and lots more people can have an influence on this industry and I really really think that if more feminist women were involved it would be better for us all.
I am kind of curious, as it seems to be a requirement, how many people on this site who label themselves feminists are actively involved with "helping" women.
@Penny: It's a good question, I think. I mean...I think debate and conversation is good and can be helpful, in the sense that cultural critique and analysis is important...but action is something else.
I personally don't do nearly enough action. I donate to groups like Equality Now, I'm active in several feminist communities in my field, I try to use my job (which is creative) to be feminist positive, and I've taught young girls and adolescents with a focus on body image and art.
Lately, though, I've been really feeling how little I -do-, you know? So I'm looking into some Big Sister programs and trying to be more actually active, rather than sitting on my butt and complaining.
I personally don't think that playboy is the worst thing in the world for women. All of the participants are willing, eager and happy to be in the magazine. They are handsomely rewarded and quite a few have parlayed appearances in the magazine to a high profile and quite a bit of success. And all of the women in playboy are of legal age to make such a choice. Many women like to feel validated for their looks, and that is something that playboy can provide for them.
Barring one's opinions on whether or not what playboy does is bad for women, all that is left to this story is that a woman has rebuilt an empire, risen to high status in a male-dominated field, and does things that she feel help other women, and what' wrong with that?
@sekushinonyanko: There's an episode of True Life that aired a few years back with a girl that wanted to be in Playboy. She was on a crazy diet, had gotten liposuction, lip injections, breast augmentations, went tanning every day, bleached her hair blonde. That's her right, but THAT is what the problem with Playboy is if you ask me. That for this girl to feel like she could be in Playboy, she thought this was the only way to be beautiful enough.
@InCahoots: But that was her choice. She had a disorder and if Playboy wasn't there, something else would have been her driving force. Many people, like myself, do not have an issue with Playboy. I have never let it be the judge of me and I do not find it insulting to women. I find it being the excuse for women to harbor ill feelings towards themselves and alter their bodies more insulting.
@ArtfulSlinger: My issue with your comment is that it sounds like there's blame placed on this girl for letting Playboy be the judge of her. Playboy is the discussion, but this goes for anything that gives a skewed perception of body image. It's wonderful if media standards don't effect how you see yourself, and I wish that that was the case for all women, but it's not. I don't think women are looking for an excuse to have ill feelings towards their bodies, and find it equally disgusting that you would think that was the case. It's just a party of being insulted around here!
Another thought - maybe it would be best if we just stopped trying to label people as feminists or nonfeminists?
We can really only judge actions, so we would have to say she is a person who has made some actions that have empowered women and others that haven't.
I know I've been known to make a mistake, accidentally reinforce a gender stereotype - but I'd hate to not be able to call myself a feminist anymore because of it.
Then I'm sure we'd want to judge habits or a lifetime of actions... then it gets messy again...
"Hef said, ‘I felt like I had this incredible birthday party and you had to come in and clean up the day after.'" Cleaning up after your dad's birthday party — especially a dad whom you call "Hef" — doesn't seem like the most empowering career.
Being a woman in a man's world, rebuilding an empire that was 'in shambles' is not empowering? Really? I think it's pretty impressive. Aside from that, her father is also her boss. You wouldn't expect her to go into a meeting with investors and call him "Dad" would you?
You take a lot of digs at Hugh Hefner here, but what her father is involved in should in no way reflect the job she's doing or how much of a 'feminist' she is. If strippers and prostitutes are symbols of feminism, how the hell is a CEO of one of the largest magazines in the country NOT considered feminist?
She's a high powered CEO, has turned a major men's magazine around, is active in politics and has become a successful businesswoman in other ventures. She's used her money for positive things. What more should she do to "earn" the title? Hop on a pole?
Perhaps bias is shadowing your views on who "deserves" to be a feminist, but frankly it's not for you (or me) to decide. I think she's an interesting woman who has done quite a bit in her life. Just because she worked for Playboy doesn't mean she's not a good feminist.
@emona: Granted, I don't always "fall into line" with the feminists on this site, which is fine. This is a complex issue, but personally, I am more concerned with individuals leading companies that prevent women and minorities from advancing (Wal-Mart) or the many companies that take advantage of cheap labor around the world that disproportionately impacts women. What about all the companies that do not offer childcare or any support for women when they give birth? Seriously, Playboy is so low on my list of grievances. And, as I said, being involved in porn does NOT preclude one from being a feminist. In my opinion, of course.
@Penny: Totally agreed. I know many women who work/worked behind the scenes and have always felt comfortable and were able to work their way up. I find it interesting to judge her on her magazine and empire, which I also have no issue with other than the horrid job it does at photoshoping, but I think blaming her and her company for the plight of women, or in effect revoking her feminist card b/c she works where she works feels a bit strange to me and sort of the opposite of feminism.
Im confused with how her being the CEO of Playboy would automatically discount her from being a feminist. I don't think feminism is synonymous for lady business owners, but I believe that just because she peddles porn doesnt disqualify her from the title.
Sadly, porn is her to stay and its a growing market, with more women becoming involved in behind the scenes. Are they doing it for the money? You betcha. But its also a positive sign to see women being held accountable for the images and perceptions they are putting out there. And if she is donating money to women's orgs and groups than thats a positive.
@ArtfulSlinger: Feminist porn exists. Feminist pornographers exist. Christie Hefner, however, has done nothing to promote it and certainly hasn't supported the creation of any.
@LaComtesse: As I understand it, you believe anyone involved in "non-feminist" porn cannot be a feminist, correct? Or is it just the people at the helm?
@LaComtesse: Exactly. I don't think porn has to be inherently bad. There are people willing to be photographed or videotaped naked or engaging in sexual acts, and that's their right. It's not that it exists and that she supports it that's the problem; the problem is that the types of porn that she supports seem to be particularly objectifying or body-ideal-skewing.
Sure, she can still be a feminist in her personal life, but she certainly hasn't done much to promote it for anyone else.
@Penny: I'm saying their profession cannot be considered feminist. Who they are on their off-time is a different story. Per people at the helm vs., say, the actresses involved... I haven't decided that, honestly. I think that's a very big question and requires more thought on my behalf. I'll get back to you ;-)
@LaComtesse: Right, but what does that have to do with her being a feminist? What I do at work all day is no way assisting in a feminist agenda, but it makes me no less a feminist. I personally don't believe Playboy is anti-women, and while it supports lofty and ridiculous goals for women's body image, its not inherently anti-women.
@InCahoots: All porn is objectifying. Be it gay, feminist, straight gang bangs - its sole purpose is to turn you on. We need to sort of move past the idea of objectifying people, because it happens, and make sure that we as people do not confuse what happens on a TV screen is not automatically okay for real life.
@ArtfulSlinger: My comment here wasn't so much on the objectification. It's the narrow and ridiculous scope of the beauty standard. I find it at least somewhat anti-women to set an ideal for beauty that is so narrow and unattainable for a large part of the world.
Personally, I have bigger issues with Playboy's unreasonable standards of beauty--huge silicon implants, heavy make-up, all "imperfections" airbrushed away--than I do the sexual content because in the end, I feel the damage created by setting that standard of beauty is far more wide-reaching. I suppose that I feel that if the pornographic content bothers you, it is easier to shield yourself from it than it is to ignore the paradigm of female beauty that Playboy (and others, of course) have created.
@Tchotchke: exactly. My objection to the woman has nothing to do with being anti-porn across the board its the overall harm her magazine and industry does to women as a whole by promoting an airbrushed and silicone enhanced standard of beauty. I feel the same way about editors and CEOs of standard fashion magazines.
@Tchotchke: This I can agree with. I find the bigger issue with the magazine is this Barbie mold we are all expected to fit into. Unfortunately, this was not always the case for the magazine and seemed to have changed once Christie took over.
I think prostitutes can be feminists, but pimps cannot. And I think pin-ups can be feminists, but the people who run the exploitative empire cannot. "Bunnies" don't get job security, health care, or retirement plans. At best, they can hope to be a part of Hef's harem... ewww. Until there is some sort of worker-owned pornography co-op or unionized porn industry, I don't see how the higher ups can be feminist.
@PrisonBreakShaker: See this comes close to how I feel. Its not the association with porn in and of itself its the fact that she profits off of other womens bodies and to an enormous degree at that.
@bluebears: So the models who are also profiting off their bodies are feminists but not the woman who helps them profit off their bodies and takes a profit herself?
@PrisonBreakShaker: True! I'm a nude model (but not for Playboy) ... and even when I get a national, corporate contract with a big client... no health care, no retirement, and in fact I can be fired at a moment's notice with no explanation.
@emona: well I have no idea what the political views of said nameless models are so I couldn't answer that. However I would be more inclined to accept them as feminists.
@emona: I would say "helps" is a very deceptive word here. Does a pimp "help" a girl find johns? Or does he contribute to a system whereby others control womens' bodies and sexualities? Does Wal-Mart hiring staff HELP people find a job? Or do they commit them to an unfair system in which they have no voice? She does not help them, she has an unnatural amount of control over their bodies and sexuality and certainly benefits form their exploitation more than their happiness. It's not like she finds girls going, "I'm going to empower women today! Just out of the kindness of my own heart!"
Playboy is not a pimp. Pimps don't sink money in women's rights, or give money to politicians who have an interest in abortion rights and sexual health. Pimps abuse and exploit prostitutes, some of whom are forced into the situation and are held down by the pimps, who control their money and means of survival.
Playboy is a magazine with naked women. They chose to be in the magazine. Most of the time, it is they who contact Playboy for a chance to be photographed. They are paid for their photos. They are further paid if they chose to participate in Playboy events. They are invited to parties and are able to live a certain lifestyle. Or, they take the money they earned and can walk away.
Playboy is not Walmart. It does not prey on poor women and underprivileged people and offer below-average pay for extreme work days and conditions. Again, it is a magazine with naked photos. Yes, it is a corporation. But that doesn't make it Walmart.
@emona: They are comparisons I am using because they both exploit women under the guise of legitimate employment. And if you think every girl who poses for Playboy is told this is going to be a one-time thing and they can just "walk away", you are wrong. I've known a few girls who did Playboy, and they are told this can be a career for them- if they just stick around long enough, they'll get a centerfold and be REALLY successful. The truth is, most of them wait around, spending what little money they got for that one nude shot and are never called again. The fact is, these women are given the IMRPESSION of an imminent career and job security, when in fact very little of them get it. The ones that do, are often in a TERRIBLE contract of exclusivity and they are NOT free agents- sounds similar to having a pimp to me.
As for not oppressing rights, have you watched the E! special on Playboy? In early days, bunnies were not allowed to have boyfriends and were supposed to keep a curfew. As for the situation now, it's expected that you "don't say "no" to Hef", as one of the women put it. I'm going to go ahead and say that all of Hef's "girlfriends" don't jump at the chance to live in the mansion without some sense of a career on the horizon. Playboy outright LIES about the opportunities it gives the women it employs, and it gives most of them shitty part-time work with an oppressive boss under the guise of an eventual career.
I think if she describes herself as a feminist, then she is a feminist. Case closed. But the articles are quoting other people's perceptions of her; they are speculating just as much as we are.
@Mary McCarthyite: Sarah Palin is a self-described feminist, too. Yet she promotes anti-choice legislation. How do we reconcile this? I think that's the issue at hand.
"But it's hard not to see Christie Hefner's position at the head of her dad's sex empire as a little creepy."I don't get this - is it only creepy because she's a woman? Boy children have been taking over their fathers' empires since the beginning of time. Would it be any different if one of Hef's sons (he has three) had taken over? Sidenote: I always thought it was kind of cool that he passed on control of his company to his daughter.
Discussions like these alway frustrate me. To me, women who decide what they want to do in life and then do the best possible job they can are to be admired for that. It is irrelevant whether I think what they do is worthy or a good idea.
@girlwonder: To take this to the illogical extreme, if a woman decided she wanted to be the world's "best" pimp, should she be praised, particularly as a feminist? Even if Playboy is doing nothing to hold women down (which I think it is, by perpetuating a hypersexualized, ridiculous, and homogeneous standard of beauty) it is certainly not doing anything to promote women's issues or even women themselves? In terms of feminism, her career is neutral at best, though I personally think her role has been detrimental.
@LaComtesse: Would you say that, say, Donna Karan could not be a feminist because she is involved in an industry that, inevitably, perpetuates an unrealistic standard of beauty?
@LaComtesse: Yes. Hefner seems to have done some good things for women and liberal causes, and for that I applaud her. But I don't think I should give up my right to criticize, just because she's doing her best at what she does. Do I also have to admire Ann Coulter?
@Penny: I didn't say she COULDN'T be a feminist. I'm saying, in her role as a the CEO of this company, she ISN'T. And that would be ditto for Donna Karan or any designer who only designs clothes for one type of woman and hires one type of model.
@Penny: but what has Christie Hefner done for women? Specifically? Yes she's contributed money to general left of center causes that I'm sure touch womens lives as well but I'm sure Coulter would argue the same thing, just from the right.
Interestingly enough, according to Ariel Levy (herself no great friend of Playboy), abortion rights as we know them actually owes a great deal to Playboy; Hugh Hefner sent legal teams to defend abortion rights in the 70s and was an amicus curiae in Roe v. Wade. I think he also paid the legal costs of that particular case, but my recollection is fuzzy.
Incidentally, Levy also interviewed Christie Hefner about the very topic this article examines. I found Hefner's arguments perfectly cogent and defensible, even if one may not necessarily agree with them.
@The Media: I wish Winerip had asked Hefner directly to talk about her politics, rather than relying on what other people say about her. Would've been interesting.
@The Media: The issues I've read of the magazine often include very sex- and woman-positive information. I found a former in-law's stash of them from the 70s, and they were even more so. I was kind of blown away.
Of course, all the good stuff is sandwiched into between glossy photos of teenagers with impossibly pnuematic tits and lips, so make of that what you will.
Eh. If some Jezebels can support prostitution as a legitimate choice for women, I don't see why Hefner can't be a feminist. Regardless of her day job, which I don't see as damaging to women anyway, she's obviously done a lot for women, which is more than many feminists can say about themselves.
@hatepuns: I agree. While it can be argued that the objectification of women draws and grows from a sexist society, it's still a choice that women can actively make, especially now. If a prostitute can be a feminist, if a republican can be a feminist, if I can be a feminist and wear short skirts and enjoy being degraded during sex, she sure as hell can be a feminist.
To me Feminism is about choice and empowerment, women who pose in Playboy make a choice to do so and it many respects feel empowered by it. Whether or not someone is being objectified has nothing to do with their right to make choices for themselves. I can argue that I objectify myself every time I wear a skirt that shows off my legs.
And the concept of being "good for women" can be argued 200 ways till Tuesday. This woman was the head of a man's company, she called the shots, she made it successful and she didn't need to sleep with twin blondes to do so.
Although at face value there certainly seems to be hypocrisy with the notion of supporting sexuality and not supporting such obvious portrayals of sexuality like Playboy, I don't think it's really that simple.
From what I've seen, a lot of women that agree that women should not repress their sexuality, do not necessarily believe that we should parade around naked everywhere or make money off of it. And certainly not that it should be your sole defining characteristic.
@PogoStick09: That was always my understanding. I always kind of looked at the "bunnies" like professional sports cheerleaders. They MUST have other jobs...
09/28/09
Most major corporations make donations to charity and political figures (sometimes for ethical reasons, sometimes for tax write-offs), but isn't it a pretty smooth move for a magazine that sells sexuality to make it safer for people to have sex? Doesn't less fear about sex create a more pro-sex atmosphere, thereby making porn less likely to be attacked?
I'm not saying we shouldn't take the money, and I'm not saying they aren't sincere about the charities they support. I'm just saying, consider the source- they BENEFIT from donating to these charities for a number of reasons.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
One thing I want to remind Jezzies of is that it would be very helpful for everyone to stop bashing on the women in this industry. We aren't all empty headed buffoons. The women I have worked with usually hold a couple jobs - they run families - they work for the police department, they teach - one thing I am excited about it that many of us own our own successful businesses. I have never met so many independent female business owners as I have working in the modeling industry.
You can tell yourself we don't have any dreams beyond being a centerfold, but most women I have met just see it as a high paid, fun way to make things happen.
I've also seen women working from the inside to effect changes that don't look obvious from seeing a glossy magazine. In reality, there is a need and a space for a variety of healthy perspectives on sexuality and women's bodies. There are sites with models who don't look like the stereotypical blonde with big tits. I work as a photographer and model for one that is run by a woman computer programmer. If any of you are interested in how your perspective on sexuality and the female form could influence these sorts of industries I would encourage you to look into it - models, stylists, make up artists, photographers, web designers, and lots more people can have an influence on this industry and I really really think that if more feminist women were involved it would be better for us all.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
I personally don't do nearly enough action. I donate to groups like Equality Now, I'm active in several feminist communities in my field, I try to use my job (which is creative) to be feminist positive, and I've taught young girls and adolescents with a focus on body image and art.
Lately, though, I've been really feeling how little I -do-, you know? So I'm looking into some Big Sister programs and trying to be more actually active, rather than sitting on my butt and complaining.
09/28/09
Barring one's opinions on whether or not what playboy does is bad for women, all that is left to this story is that a woman has rebuilt an empire, risen to high status in a male-dominated field, and does things that she feel help other women, and what' wrong with that?
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
We can really only judge actions, so we would have to say she is a person who has made some actions that have empowered women and others that haven't.
I know I've been known to make a mistake, accidentally reinforce a gender stereotype - but I'd hate to not be able to call myself a feminist anymore because of it.
Then I'm sure we'd want to judge habits or a lifetime of actions... then it gets messy again...
*shrug.
09/28/09
09/28/09
Surely this is some common ground for us to stand upon?!
True though, that we thrive on labels and it's unrealistic that we could do away with them completely - but it's just a nice thought to aspire to, eh?
09/28/09
09/28/09
Being a woman in a man's world, rebuilding an empire that was 'in shambles' is not empowering? Really? I think it's pretty impressive. Aside from that, her father is also her boss. You wouldn't expect her to go into a meeting with investors and call him "Dad" would you?
You take a lot of digs at Hugh Hefner here, but what her father is involved in should in no way reflect the job she's doing or how much of a 'feminist' she is. If strippers and prostitutes are symbols of feminism, how the hell is a CEO of one of the largest magazines in the country NOT considered feminist?
She's a high powered CEO, has turned a major men's magazine around, is active in politics and has become a successful businesswoman in other ventures. She's used her money for positive things. What more should she do to "earn" the title? Hop on a pole?
Perhaps bias is shadowing your views on who "deserves" to be a feminist, but frankly it's not for you (or me) to decide. I think she's an interesting woman who has done quite a bit in her life. Just because she worked for Playboy doesn't mean she's not a good feminist.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Sadly, porn is her to stay and its a growing market, with more women becoming involved in behind the scenes. Are they doing it for the money? You betcha. But its also a positive sign to see women being held accountable for the images and perceptions they are putting out there. And if she is donating money to women's orgs and groups than thats a positive.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Sure, she can still be a feminist in her personal life, but she certainly hasn't done much to promote it for anyone else.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Playboy is not a pimp. Pimps don't sink money in women's rights, or give money to politicians who have an interest in abortion rights and sexual health. Pimps abuse and exploit prostitutes, some of whom are forced into the situation and are held down by the pimps, who control their money and means of survival.
Playboy is a magazine with naked women. They chose to be in the magazine. Most of the time, it is they who contact Playboy for a chance to be photographed. They are paid for their photos. They are further paid if they chose to participate in Playboy events. They are invited to parties and are able to live a certain lifestyle. Or, they take the money they earned and can walk away.
Playboy is not Walmart. It does not prey on poor women and underprivileged people and offer below-average pay for extreme work days and conditions. Again, it is a magazine with naked photos. Yes, it is a corporation. But that doesn't make it Walmart.
09/28/09
As for not oppressing rights, have you watched the E! special on Playboy? In early days, bunnies were not allowed to have boyfriends and were supposed to keep a curfew. As for the situation now, it's expected that you "don't say "no" to Hef", as one of the women put it. I'm going to go ahead and say that all of Hef's "girlfriends" don't jump at the chance to live in the mansion without some sense of a career on the horizon. Playboy outright LIES about the opportunities it gives the women it employs, and it gives most of them shitty part-time work with an oppressive boss under the guise of an eventual career.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Discussions like these alway frustrate me. To me, women who decide what they want to do in life and then do the best possible job they can are to be admired for that. It is irrelevant whether I think what they do is worthy or a good idea.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
@Anna N.: An apt comparison.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Incidentally, Levy also interviewed Christie Hefner about the very topic this article examines. I found Hefner's arguments perfectly cogent and defensible, even if one may not necessarily agree with them.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
Of course, all the good stuff is sandwiched into between glossy photos of teenagers with impossibly pnuematic tits and lips, so make of that what you will.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
And the concept of being "good for women" can be argued 200 ways till Tuesday. This woman was the head of a man's company, she called the shots, she made it successful and she didn't need to sleep with twin blondes to do so.
09/28/09
Although at face value there certainly seems to be hypocrisy with the notion of supporting sexuality and not supporting such obvious portrayals of sexuality like Playboy, I don't think it's really that simple.
From what I've seen, a lot of women that agree that women should not repress their sexuality, do not necessarily believe that we should parade around naked everywhere or make money off of it. And certainly not that it should be your sole defining characteristic.
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09
09/28/09