Why are people still using women's wages to determine who will pay for daycare/nanny or to stay at home? (I.e. I'd only bring in X amount of dollars than what we would pay someone else). On the one hand, it demonstrates that staying at home is work and has financial value, but on the other still plays into the idea that a woman's place is at home (men aren't the ones staying home, men have to spend more hours outside of the home etc...).
Also these stay-at-home or work "debates" ignore populations of mothers who have a history of working outside the home and highlights that we aren't still asking for employers to do more to accommodate employees invested in personal lives (ie daycares at work, better insurance plans, working split-shifts, co-sharing positions, etc...). Also,not every working mother with a partner is doing so for purely materialistic reasons.
As a kid I experienced both having a SAHM and later a working mom and the comfort I had coming home from elementary school and having my mom watch me do my homework was equal to how proud I was to ride with my Dad to pick her up and see her in her work clothes.
/Sorry this is so long. I just can't stand how smug some people get whenever this topic comes up and that no one wants to get away from this divisive dichotomy and think about the other alternatives to what parenting could look like.
@AnnoyingFemaleLeadVoiceover: In the case of my married friend with 3.8 kids, I know they use her paycheck for the daycare because a) she makes less than her cop husband, b) they use his insurance to cover the family, she claims fewer deductions, then pay more income tax on her check as to get a refund later (which IMHO, is certifiable insane, but...).
I'm not sure if this is patriarchally oppressive or just how the numbers work. But if I were married and I made more, I'd want to use the smaller income (my husbands) for daycare and live on my income.
I'm kind of disappointed in Jezebel for continuing to post these horrible working women vs. stay at home women stories. They just divide us as women. Everyone seems to get all up in arms about it over and over and over again, while the media companies that post these get lots of hits and "most emailed" status from these kinds of stories.
@waverly: I agree to a point. Yeah, we are contributing to pageviews. But posts like these foster discussion here. And I don't mind giving pageviews to Jez for bringing different kinds of women with different opinions to have a civilized discussion. I don't think talking about an issue necessarily equals division and animosity.
I wasn't aware we needed an excuse to go back to work. I wasn't aware we needed an excuse NOT to go back to work. Last time I checked, our choices were just that--ours. Kindly butt out.
Sincerely,
Scientist whose lovely boyfriend wants to stay at home with their hypothetical future children.
I was laid off when I was 8 months pregnant with my son (who will by 2 in May).
I am SO GLAD that the economy has been in the can because there just aren't jobs out there, and I LOVE staying home with him. If there were good jobs in my field available, I would feel like I HAD to go back to work.
Very interesting article to me, especially because I am returning to work this week after maternity leave. Because of my job (I'm a surgical resident) my choice was return to work now, or (likely) never finish training, and never work as a surgeon, which I've devoted the last eight years of my life to becoming. So my husband and I sign my paycheck over to the nanny every month (who, by the way, does appear to find gratification in diapers, naps, etc) and I go off to work. I have mixed emotions -- I love my son and wish there was a middle ground between giving up my career dream or working 80 hours a week. For me, it all goes back to the fact that staying home/working outside the home tends to be a very black or white issue in the US, there are few creative solutions out there to solve this problem. Is it too much to hope for from the new administration?
@blue2000: Hey, congratulations to you for your accomplishments. You're right, living in the US does make these kinds of things harder for families than other countries do. And this is a shame. But I really think that following your dream will be a gift to your son in a different way. If he has a little bit of time with you regularly that's quality and in which he feels your love for him, it'll be worth more to him than you being home all the time and being frustrated that you threw away years of training and opportunities. And when he's an adult, he'll appreciate it all the more that he has a mom with a really cool job.
I do wonder why it's your paycheck that goes to the nanny. Linda Hirshman points out in her book "Get to Work" that families always do the math based on the woman's paycheck. This is partly because the woman often has a lower salary, but also, as Hirshman argues, because it's assumed child care is the woman's responsibility. So if the man earns 70K and the woman earns 40, and child care costs 20, families tend to say, well, after taxes, her salary is not much more than 20K, so why doesn't she just stay home and take care of the kid? The alternative, according to Hirshman, is to do the math this way: the family income is 110K, 20 K of that goes to childcare since it's a joint responsibility, and everyone keeps their jobs.
My Mum worked from home. She had a quite successful draughting business, and could draw while we 3 young children played in the mud. She took us on building sites, and was usually able to take us on school trips, but just because my mother did it, doesn't mean everyone can. We were lucky she was in an industry where she could work from home, we lived in the middle of nowhere, and my father did shift work. There wasn't the option of putting us in day care.
So I suppose again, it all comes back to choice. You do what is best for you and your family, and you can't really judge what others do. They do the best they can in their situations.
Being a stay-at-home mom is not "a luxury for the super-rich." We are not "super-rich," and I have always been at home. My husband works 60-70 hours a week, and if I did, too, nothing would ever get done. I may not get paid, but I am a maid, laundress, cook, bill-payer, present-buyer, chauffeur, nurse, room-mom, and dog-mom, and keeper of the medicine cabinet/pantry/closets. Keeps me kinda busy, see?
Yes, there are plenty of women who do everything and work outside the home, too. But I would rather live without the large boat all my neighbors have, or the three-times-a-year vacation instead of our once-a-year vacation. My son wears Target/Gap sale clothes, and doesn't notice the difference between his clothes and all the labels on his friends.
@gerbilsoutofexile...is cheap and easy: I think the idea of a "luxury for the super rich" depends on where you live. I have many SAHM friends in smaller to mid-sized cities in Missouri and Texas and they are not rich but are able to stay at home because there's far more affordable housing and they make sacrifices for other luxuries.
I live in a larger city and we don't have a boat an we also wear Target clothing and clip coupons and never take a vacation and there's still no way we could ever afford to be on one income.
I'm not arguing with you--just agreeing with you. So many of these articles make it sound like you either stay at home and skip $4 coffees or you both work and vacation in Europe and buy a boat. Not quite that black & white. There are numerous two-income families making tons of sacrifices and living frugally just as there are a number of one-income families who sacrifice nothing. Every situation is so very different with so many factors.
Well, let's face it--these articles are always going to be about/for people in a higher tax bracket than the rest of us, because a) their pain matters more to them than anyone else's; and b) they are the intended audience of Forbes. People who wait for excuses to do things are going to grab the excuse anywhere they can find it. This is a good one for a lot of things, but it doesn't necessarily change what would have happened anyhow. I'm glad I went back to work for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is not having to explain long gaps in my employment history because of mothering, but the recession isn't even in the top three. I'm grateful as hell that we're both still employed, and that I didn't pick now to start looking for work, and that I'm in a recession-resistant field. Also that this came along when I'm at the beginning of my career, not in the middle, where I'd be more likely to be laid off because I'd be making more. I take my good fortune where I can get it.
@TheFormerJuneBronson: In all honestly, I hope the recession provides not just an excuse but a full-on kick in the pants for my stepmom. She worked for years in the sciences, has a masters degree in bio sciences from a top university, and my parents live in a biotech-heavy area. For the past decade, though, my stepmom has stayed home, and I absolutely believe that she worked at least as much as my father in her household role. However, her one child is now in high school and is gone from about 7:30 a.m. to 5 p.m., and she and my dad are feeling the financial strain of paying for two private universities in the span of a few years as well as an outrageously expensive private middle/high school for the youngest one, not to mention the mortgage burden of their $2M ocean-view home.
Whenever they worry about money or float the idea of taking my sister out of her final year at her university, I have to wonder why my stepmom doesn't seek employment. Lab jobs are not in short supply in our area, and she's fully qualified to do basic lab work, part-time or full-time. How is it an obvious solution to me, and not to them?
After staying home with the mini-Zinhas for 3.5 years, I took a part-time job at a Starbucks to try something new and to make some friends. It ended up being a long-ish term thing (almost 3 years) before I ended up being one of the unlucky jobless because of the recession. So for me, it's the opposite: I'm back to being a stay-at-home mother because of the recession.
As aggravating as working for Sbux was (anyone who says it's "just pouring coffee" has never actually been a barista), I thought it would feel good to have my time more for myself and my children, and have the freedom to volunteer and make myself available for the various fun things I do (martial arts, dance, writing), and also I could quit complaining about never being able to keep up with the housework.
Instead, I've found myself increasingly depressed and useless. Being a stay-at-home mom to kids who are not really at home much (they're in 1st grade and are in school 9a-330p) makes me feel really adrift, uncertain, and lacking in a schedule to keep me focused. I lag farther and farther behind in everything, and feel overwhelmed and just want to run away.
No matter how much I bitched about the unending grind of caring for 2 infants or being a coffee slave, at least it gave me a routine and purpose to my days.
@Cafezinha: That really sucks - sorry you're at home, not by choice. As my mother would say (though I swear I'm trying to type it without the sanctimonious tone) there are always volunteering opportunities... I totally understand the inertia of being without a fulfilling purpose during the day.
@Cafezinha: I don't have children (yet) but you described exactly how it is for me to work a permanent part-time while trying to do more freelance work. I feel like I'm floundering around - in limbo because I'm working enough to pay for bills, but not enough to make substantial contributions to savings, to health insurance or to school debt. I have no idea what to do with myself right now.
@Mkp-hearts-NYC: Lately, I've been working on making a point to schedule my day--even if the to-do list just says "eat breakfast, load dishwasher, take a nap, play Nintendo DS, pet cats", having a routine for my day gets me out of my "woe is me" funk and keeps me motivated to be a good mother, wife, friend, athlete, etc.
I also signed up to volunteer at the local gay rights centre and told the head of my capoeira academy to have me first on the list for people to call for volunteers for workshops, classes, clean-up, etc., since I am one of a handful of people in our group jobless and looking for structure. It definitely helps.
@Cafezinha: Yay plans! When I was unemployed a year ago I had to do the same thing even if it was just "walk around, grocery store, tidy living room, call mom"
I also recommend animal shelters who may in the need of dog walkers etc... Hang in there!
@echoparkgal: "I have no idea what to do with myself right now."
Exactly! Funny thing is, I love being with my kids--the stay-at-home mom part I had from their birthday until I took that job before was AWESOME and I'd love to do it again.
Somehow, though, I'm just floating and feeling kind of apathetic about life.
@Slumdog_Mamabear: I wouldn't be surprised if someone did. It goes all ways. I have been called a "braindead jellyfish" to my face because I am not currently working, and I know people make comments about not loving your kids if you work. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
@Cafezinha: Whenever I used to feel like that in college, I'd structure my time by volunteering A LOT. I know you're already thinking about it, but I think most people envision volunteering as something they do a couple times per month, at most. I volunteered all day every Saturday in high school and for 2 full days per week in college. Having a really regular schedule like that helped a lot, and I always felt like I had accomplished something tangible at the end of the day because I chose projects with visible results (unlike, say, reading 2 chapters and writing an essay that will never be read, which were my regular tasks).
Sometimes, it's hard to find places to volunteer that really want someone around that much, but if you think it might work for you, do some digging. Sometimes places like Headstart could use extra hands during hours that your kids are in school or you could do something with flexible times, like holding babies at the hospital. (This is a real volunteer position; one of my roommates used to do it and my mom wants to do it when she retires.) It can be a bit weird to show up at places so much at first, but they'll really value having someone who is around a lot and knows what they're doing after a couple of months and who is reliable and predictable in her hours.
What jobs are these women getting when they go back in the workforce? My own colleagues seem unable to stay employed! Why I'm currently staring at my 'puter myself wondering if I've been axed and just don't know it yet.
@PilgrimSoul: My college is hiring adjunct faculty in a dozen disciplines, plus five regular faculty positions, an assistant librarian, and two campus policepeople. Things are coming up well for public colleges, if the state doesn't flush our budget down the toilet. Fortunately, student instruction is an essential service when we're expecting a lot of kids to come to us as a "financial safety."
I'd just better get my raise. My husband hasn't had one in four years; one of us needs to make up that ground.
@PhDork: Central Massachusetts. Often the jobs jackpot for overeducated types like myself is outside of the metro area. Fortunately, in New England, the middle of nowhere is usually a lot closer to somewhere than it is in, say, Nebraska.
@jigglyball: I'm glad I could help. Seriously, I'm only 35 miles west of Boston. I'm a lot more valuable here than I was when I was available to adjunct in the city. I make more than twice as much.
Ok, everyone can be flip about it, if they like. But staying home with your kids is an experience you can't really predict. I have one friend who is going back to work "because of the economy." The truth is, she stayed home because she thought she wanted to, she made the plans, yada yada. Then she realized it is not what she was cut out for. Many of her friends have suggested she go back to work because she would be happier, but she felt like it was her duty to stay home. But when the economy went south in our area, she decided to go back to work. The truth is, she didn't feel she could just say straight out, "I don't like staying at home." She needed to have another reason she could tell people. None of the rest of us thought she needed one, but she did. So be it, I for one will not judge her.
On top of that, when you stay home, there are lots of things to like, and lots of reasons you want to stay home. But that doesn't mean there aren't lots of things that are difficult and you struggle with. Sometimes someone needs that extra little thing in the cons side, like "the economy," to feel ok making the decision to go back to work.
Everyone can be snarky about it, but it's the truth for some women.
@mommy_dearest: I still sometimes hedge about why I don't stay home full-time. It just gives someone an opening to say, "Ah-ha! You don't really love your kid! If you did, you'd want to be around him all the time!" And, no. I just need a balance between working and being home and having alone time. I didn't stop being me because I had a kid. Hate that.
@mommy_dearest: I like this. Thank you for pointing out that women using the recession as an excuse to get back to work aren't necessarily despicable cowards. Also, let's say they are too nervous to bring this up with hubby, parents, neighbours, or even themselves -- if they can use the recession as a reason to do something that makes them happier and more productive, more power to them.
@Slumdog_Mamabear: Said, no. Implied, yes. I seem to know a lot of people who think that good people love children and people who love children are good people. And good people who love children must want to be around them all the time. Frankly, I'm looking forward to when I can teach him about something more than potty training, and when he doesn't want to sit on my lap alllll the time. I'm beginning to have toddler poisoning this winter.
@TheFormerJuneBronson: That can be easy to get. One of the great things about living where it is always warm is the ability to go outside easily almost everyday. I don't know what I would do if we lived somewhere with snow.
Great... more competition for me. I already have to try and fight for jobs with people who have more experience and more connections than I do, now people who wouldn't dream of working before are coming out of the woodwork. This is not a good time to be a senior at any university.
03/10/09
is that too much like right?
03/10/09
03/10/09
03/09/09
Also these stay-at-home or work "debates" ignore populations of mothers who have a history of working outside the home and highlights that we aren't still asking for employers to do more to accommodate employees invested in personal lives (ie daycares at work, better insurance plans, working split-shifts, co-sharing positions, etc...). Also,not every working mother with a partner is doing so for purely materialistic reasons.
As a kid I experienced both having a SAHM and later a working mom and the comfort I had coming home from elementary school and having my mom watch me do my homework was equal to how proud I was to ride with my Dad to pick her up and see her in her work clothes.
/Sorry this is so long. I just can't stand how smug some people get whenever this topic comes up and that no one wants to get away from this divisive dichotomy and think about the other alternatives to what parenting could look like.
03/10/09
I'm not sure if this is patriarchally oppressive or just how the numbers work. But if I were married and I made more, I'd want to use the smaller income (my husbands) for daycare and live on my income.
03/09/09
Give it a rest, media.
03/10/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
I wasn't aware we needed an excuse to go back to work. I wasn't aware we needed an excuse NOT to go back to work. Last time I checked, our choices were just that--ours. Kindly butt out.
Sincerely,
Scientist whose lovely boyfriend wants to stay at home with their hypothetical future children.
03/09/09
I am SO GLAD that the economy has been in the can because there just aren't jobs out there, and I LOVE staying home with him. If there were good jobs in my field available, I would feel like I HAD to go back to work.
03/11/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
I do wonder why it's your paycheck that goes to the nanny. Linda Hirshman points out in her book "Get to Work" that families always do the math based on the woman's paycheck. This is partly because the woman often has a lower salary, but also, as Hirshman argues, because it's assumed child care is the woman's responsibility. So if the man earns 70K and the woman earns 40, and child care costs 20, families tend to say, well, after taxes, her salary is not much more than 20K, so why doesn't she just stay home and take care of the kid? The alternative, according to Hirshman, is to do the math this way: the family income is 110K, 20 K of that goes to childcare since it's a joint responsibility, and everyone keeps their jobs.
03/09/09
So I suppose again, it all comes back to choice. You do what is best for you and your family, and you can't really judge what others do. They do the best they can in their situations.
03/09/09
Yes, there are plenty of women who do everything and work outside the home, too. But I would rather live without the large boat all my neighbors have, or the three-times-a-year vacation instead of our once-a-year vacation. My son wears Target/Gap sale clothes, and doesn't notice the difference between his clothes and all the labels on his friends.
03/09/09
I live in a larger city and we don't have a boat an we also wear Target clothing and clip coupons and never take a vacation and there's still no way we could ever afford to be on one income.
I'm not arguing with you--just agreeing with you. So many of these articles make it sound like you either stay at home and skip $4 coffees or you both work and vacation in Europe and buy a boat. Not quite that black & white. There are numerous two-income families making tons of sacrifices and living frugally just as there are a number of one-income families who sacrifice nothing. Every situation is so very different with so many factors.
03/09/09
03/09/09
Whenever they worry about money or float the idea of taking my sister out of her final year at her university, I have to wonder why my stepmom doesn't seek employment. Lab jobs are not in short supply in our area, and she's fully qualified to do basic lab work, part-time or full-time. How is it an obvious solution to me, and not to them?
03/09/09
As aggravating as working for Sbux was (anyone who says it's "just pouring coffee" has never actually been a barista), I thought it would feel good to have my time more for myself and my children, and have the freedom to volunteer and make myself available for the various fun things I do (martial arts, dance, writing), and also I could quit complaining about never being able to keep up with the housework.
Instead, I've found myself increasingly depressed and useless. Being a stay-at-home mom to kids who are not really at home much (they're in 1st grade and are in school 9a-330p) makes me feel really adrift, uncertain, and lacking in a schedule to keep me focused. I lag farther and farther behind in everything, and feel overwhelmed and just want to run away.
No matter how much I bitched about the unending grind of caring for 2 infants or being a coffee slave, at least it gave me a routine and purpose to my days.
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
I also signed up to volunteer at the local gay rights centre and told the head of my capoeira academy to have me first on the list for people to call for volunteers for workshops, classes, clean-up, etc., since I am one of a handful of people in our group jobless and looking for structure. It definitely helps.
03/09/09
I also recommend animal shelters who may in the need of dog walkers etc... Hang in there!
03/09/09
Exactly! Funny thing is, I love being with my kids--the stay-at-home mom part I had from their birthday until I took that job before was AWESOME and I'd love to do it again.
Somehow, though, I'm just floating and feeling kind of apathetic about life.
03/09/09
03/09/09
Sometimes, it's hard to find places to volunteer that really want someone around that much, but if you think it might work for you, do some digging. Sometimes places like Headstart could use extra hands during hours that your kids are in school or you could do something with flexible times, like holding babies at the hospital. (This is a real volunteer position; one of my roommates used to do it and my mom wants to do it when she retires.) It can be a bit weird to show up at places so much at first, but they'll really value having someone who is around a lot and knows what they're doing after a couple of months and who is reliable and predictable in her hours.
03/09/09
What jobs are these women getting when they go back in the workforce? My own colleagues seem unable to stay employed! Why I'm currently staring at my 'puter myself wondering if I've been axed and just don't know it yet.
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
I'd just better get my raise. My husband hasn't had one in four years; one of us needs to make up that ground.
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
On top of that, when you stay home, there are lots of things to like, and lots of reasons you want to stay home. But that doesn't mean there aren't lots of things that are difficult and you struggle with. Sometimes someone needs that extra little thing in the cons side, like "the economy," to feel ok making the decision to go back to work.
Everyone can be snarky about it, but it's the truth for some women.
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09
03/09/09