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10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
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Furface
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
Puberty would be nice...

People like this give Islam a bad name... the Qur'an is actually more about equality than the Bible.
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@Furface: Well, you know, all of our sacred texts have their good sides and their bad sides, and our religions are much more than just what is in the text. We all need to learn how to synthesize our texts and our traditions in a way that makes sense for our lives, now.

As a liberal Jew, I choose to focus on things like "He has told you, oh Man, what is good and what the Lord requires… only to do justice and to love goodness and to walk modestly with your God, " rather than "those peoples that warred against Jerusalem... their flesh shall rot away." As I'm sure many Muslims would rather focus on "Those who keep from evil will dwell amid gardens, in their wealth, the beggar and outcast had due share" rather than "the only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger… will be that they will be killed or crucified," and lots of Christians prefer "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you," to this comment the gospels have Jesus making to "the Jews": "You belong to your father, the devil."

How do we make sense of all of these strands? How do we learn from them, what would our Creator have us take from it all? Those are the questions, I think.
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Furface
01/14/09

@ellaesther: That's a good point. I guess what I was trying to say is that Muslim feminists are trying to focus on those positive things about the Qur'an to try to implement a more progressive understanding and way of life... much in the same way Christian and Jewish feminists are.
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@Furface: Hey, I would really love to read some writing by Muslim feminists. Can you hook me up with some links? I was just searching around for something the other day, hand to God.
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Furface
01/14/09

@ellaesther: "Women, Sexuality, and Social Change in the Middle East" by Pinar Ilkkaracan: [findarticles.com]

Another one is "Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in Mosques" by Asra Q Nomani, but I can't find it online.
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@Furface: Thank you very much!
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MerryLilly
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
I'm 28 and single. I guess that would make me a second class citizen or something in certain places.
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Mayonegg
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
as a westerner who grew up there, and still has family there ( I go home every christmas) I have experience with the whole Saudi experience. The vast majority of saudi people disagree with these extremist practices. But to understand the way progress moves in Saudi Culture, is the critical thing here. This country is riddled with beuocracy (sp) and the path to progressive movement is slow. It's happening. but because Mecca is in saudi, the fight for progress etc is being met with opposition the entire way.

The saudi people see the success of their neighboring countries which have many more freedoms, they would like to have them too. However the complicated state which saudi is in regarding islam, gives an extra length of power and control to the religious right, and the fact that it is not a Democratic nation, gives very little power to the hands of the people or the majority
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@Vaginaisnotadirtyword: Thank you very much for this. As always, it seems, getting to know actual people on the ground is a powerful antidote to the powers attempting to enforce ignorance.
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carolpp1005
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
the question is, would he be so eager to marry off his own daughters and grand daughters at this age?
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@carolpp1005: Actually, pretty likely.
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ellaesther
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
I really recommend that y'all go to the first discussion, started by trulymadlyme. It's chock full of really good information about all this!
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mindypoo
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
It's too bad that we can't adopt girls from Saudi Arabia......
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Beat Girl
01/14/09

@mindypoo: Anyone got Madonna's cell?
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deitybox
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
Come on, you guys. Chill out. They'll only let really mature ten-year old girls get married. Like, the types who can work Easy-Bake ovens and shit.
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graceful_gamine
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
I agree with everyone that this is wrong, but I do find it difficult to make simple black and white judgements against other cultures that live in completely different economic and historical situations. Yes, there are inexcusable issues of sexism and power going on here (which they probably need to figure out on their own, which unfortunately takes time--see our own history--we still have a long way to go). But, economic issues are just as powerful as cultural ones, and unless we work towards economic equality between countries instead of abusing our position of economic power, women will still be worth a pricetag and be traded as such.
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stacyinbean
01/14/09

@graceful_gamine: We're talking about Saudi Arabia here. They have more money than they could ever possibly know what to do with. We are not discussing Afghanistan or something, Saudi Arabia is by far the worst offender against women and they have no economic reason for this to be the case.
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graceful_gamine
01/14/09

@stacyinbean: Compared to other countries in the region, yes. But, Saudi Arabia's average income per capita (according to unicef) is around $12,000 compared to $44,000 in USA and $40,000 in UK. Admittedly I'm just googling, but it leads me to believe that all that wealth is in the hands of a few--as it generally is even in USA. So, yeah, one would hope that because of this Saudi Arabia would have a better record with women's rights than with other countries in the region, but it still has a different economic situation entirely from USA. Then again, if women had equal rights and equal pay and job opportunities, this might be a game changer economics-wise, but that's a whole other issue!

But, I do agree, one would assume this would be a much worse problem in places like Afghanistan where, from what I've read, small impoverished farmers are simply desperate.
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Hana Maru
01/14/09

@graceful_gamine: The wealth is definitely spread around in Saudi Arabia. People with lower incomes have more of their basic needs(housing, food, healthcare) met than we do in the U.S. Still, rich Saudi women are legally and culturally under the thumb of male relatives, and poor women in the western world are not.
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croberts
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
well, crap. I'm definently on a bad path.

How do the mothers stand for this? I would raise holy hell if anyone tried to marry my daughter off at 17, let alone 10!

These extreme ideas of a few Muslims are what some americans latch onto as to why they're wrong, barbaric, crazy, etc. and think all Muslims are crazy suicide bombers chanting death to america. I am having such a hard time convincing my family that it's just the EXTREME! not the norm.
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musicpup
01/14/09

@croberts: The judicial system is so corrupt that, even when a mother files for divorce, it is often rejected. Women truly have very limited rights, which can also be seen in that the Saudis force foreign women working in the country to wear burquas and takes the right to drive away from them. To me, it's not Muslims but the male-centric cultures that developed around the religion by taking a lot of things out of context.
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NefariousNewt
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
Of course it's acceptable... to the old farts who say so and who covet young and nubile brides. For the rest of us, it's an abomination.
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million.dollar.mouth.
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
Bad Path: I'm following you. With great happiness.
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
This is disgusting. This is not about God, nor marriage. This is about controlling women more easily: what better way than to snatch them up at 10?

I encourage all Jezebels to reading "No god but God" by my second husband, Reza Aslan, because he addresses the ways in which the powers that be have contorted Islam to fit their own needs and desires since shortly after its inception. It's a really powerful read.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: (Wow. I would let that guy learn me pretty much anything....)
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: I met and interviewed him a while back for a program he did at my place of employment (if you want, I'll send you the link). He is brilliant and fabulous and hot damn is he a cutie.
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Plum-Pie
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: After reading your blog, I'll take any book recommendation you can give.
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@Plum-Pie: Gasp! You read my blog?! I'm giddy over here! You just kinda made my day. This inspires me to update more often!
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: *drool* link please!
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philoclea
01/14/09

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: I just looked at his website, and, um, me too.
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: Check your board: link there plus explaination as to WHY it's there :-)
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: Ok, at first I thought you meant that he was your second husband, and that you were still on really good terms after the divorce, and you really admired his intellect and writing. Then I realized I was wrong.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@ellaesther: She's just planning ahead. Hugh Jackman and I have a similar understanding that he doesn't know about yet.
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@ellaesther:I think he's the one celeb-crush I can't bring up in front of Mr. LaComtesse...

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: If you want to wed Hugh Jackman, you have to get in line behind my mother. With Heath Leger dead, she's moving on to mancrush numero dos!
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@ellaesther: Also, if I had a 3 husbands before the age of 26, I would have had to have started at... yeah, say 10... :-p
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: Not at the rate that one of my relatives has gone through three marriages...! If you rip through them at 18 month intervals, you could fit in at least three between legal drinking age and 26. Girl, you're moving too slowly. Pick up the pace!
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LaComtesse
01/14/09

@ellaesther: What a fool I've been! Heh. That's TOTALLY okay: one wedding with one crazy set of in-laws was enough to last me a friggen lifetime. (Oh, right, and I've kinda found the perfect chap, so I'll stick with him...)
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ellaesther
01/14/09

@LaComtesse: Preach, on that last point. Finding a fabulous man - FTW!
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Bunny_of_doom
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
Well, I'm no longer hungry. *tosses bagel and coffee*

I'm starting to think I shall never understand the logic that these people apply to these situations. Can someone please help enlighten me?
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@Bunny_of_doom: Oh, well, men are righteous rulers, women are things, and men should be allowed to acquire things. Simple, really. Age hardly factors into it.

(we snark so we don't cry)
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musicpup
01/14/09

@Bunny_of_doom: Check out the very first comment thread on this topic. trulymadlyme seems to know what's going on!
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Bunny_of_doom
01/14/09

@musicpup: Thank you.
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Bunny_of_doom
01/14/09

@musicpup: Her explanation is wonderful and illuminating but it's just horribly sad to me that things like this still occur.
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musicpup
01/14/09

@Bunny_of_doom: Very true - but at least it helps me understand things a little bit better, you know? Not knowing is, somehow, infinitely worse.
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DangerMouse
01/14/09

@Bunny_of_doom: I never lose my appetite... please pass the bagel over here!

(Yes, once again, I'm here with the, "Did someone say FOOD?" I almost said it to the breadcrumb comment.)
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Bunny_of_doom
01/14/09

@DangerMouse: It was a bland plain bagel, but you are more than welcome to it.

*toss*

I am regretting tossing the coffee, now I have to go buy another one.
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morninggloria
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
You guys, this was taken totally out of context. The full quote is that ten year old girls should be allowed to marry their Barbies to each other in fanciful ceremonies.
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sarah.of.a.lesser.god (aka Mrs. BrutallyHonestHobbit)
01/14/09

@morninggloria: I got married at summer camp when I was 8. The Grand Mufti would approve. Except then I got divorced, so he'd probably damn me.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@morninggloria: Hey, and my Ken was totally a Polygamist. I'm saved!
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CollegeBookworm
01/14/09

@sarah.of.a.lesser.god (2009: a space ovumlord): I got married at summer camp too, at the marriage booth! Only we were all dirty, evil polygamists. Dirty evil ten year old Jewish kid polygamists. We were also having the Gay Weddings.
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morninggloria
01/14/09

@CollegeBookworm: You're so progressive.
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morninggloria
01/14/09

In reply to 10 Year Olds OK To Marry, Says Senior Saudi Official
So far, I'm going to Christian hell, Jewish hell, AND Muslim hell for my strumpet ways. I'm also probably going to be reincarnated as a dung beetle. How I enjoy collecting multi faith damnations.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@morninggloria: They're like Pokemon! Collect 'em all and then they can battle for your soul!
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CollegeBookworm
01/14/09

@morninggloria: In general, you should be okay with the Jews. We don't approve of your strumpet ways, but whether we believe in hell depends on the interpretation!
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Trulymadlyme
01/14/09

@morninggloria: I'll see you there!
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Brigit
01/14/09

@morninggloria: I'll meet you there for margaritas and hell-poolboy frolicking.

I want to be reincarnated as a rape apologist-specific virus. Although being a douchebag-specifig virus might be cool too.
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DangerMouse
01/14/09

@morninggloria: Don't forget that special subset of Christian hell, Catholic hell!

See you there. At least we'll be in good company.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@DangerMouse: @morninggloria

ooh, and Pentacostal hell - with extra fire!

I will bring the marshmallows.
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prestocaro fears the culling
01/14/09

@morninggloria: Would you want to be in heaven with these asshats?

I think hell will be more fun than these religions let on... The devil invented rock and roll!
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Trulymadlyme
01/14/09

@Mkp-hearts-NYC: I'll save you a spot at the bar!
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morninggloria
01/14/09

@prestocaro wants to be your cheap virtual assistant: Very good point. Heaven is a forced group game of Boggle, Hell is a dirty alcohol fueled game of scrabble.
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Mkp-hearts-NYC
01/14/09

@morninggloria: In Heaven everyone sits up to the table at a nice dining set, in Hell everyone sprawls on beanbag chairs and oversize throw pillows....
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