charlesmanson - Jezebel

posts about #charlesmanson more →
Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Squeaky Fromme To Be Released From Prison
Mark Wahlberg Marries, Ali Larter Also Says "I Do," And Brad And Angelina Fight Over Burial Plots
"How Do I Explain To My Friend That Her Bad Mothering Drove Her Daughter To Suicide?"
New Mexico Cult Leader Jailed For Child Molestation

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Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
I've mentioned a few times before on here that I grew up in a cult. It was an organization that was also "supposed to be loving and kind." After you have been programmed to believe in the absolute goodness and benevolence of the organization or leader, it takes a very long time to reconcile the dark reality of a situation to the overwhelming beliefs in your own mind. Everything she said is strikingly similar to what my mother and other members of the cult have said since breaking free. My parents didn't know and just couldn't believe that all of us girl children were being molested and that the young women were being systematically raped. They couldn't believe that the leaders were amassing an arsenal and were trying to plan a cessation movement. They couldn't believe that the "suicides" were actually murders, because that would mean that the organization that they had poured everything into was a lie and a waste and they were criminals. It wasn't until the "healers" almost killed my little brother that my parents finally woke up and got out, and when you "get out" of something so fully mind-controlling, you just run. You don't think like a rational person, you run as if you're being pursued by a swarm of African bees. I can absolutely see where she is coming from, that when she finally realized how deep the patholgy ran and how deadly the situation was, all she could do was run. When you have fully relinquished autonomy to a single charismatic, god-like figure, you lose your reasoning and the power of a well-defined self. You can get parts of it back, of course, but it takes a lot of time, work and therapy. There are a lot of people on here saying that they think she's lying or that she got off too easy, but honestly, she sounds like all of my parents' friends who were in the cult so long that they are too broken to be ever be fixed and are wracked with the knowledge that they sat by while their daughters/wives/sisters were sexually abused for years. The knowledge that you have been so dangerously duped and put your own children in danger is not easy to live with and I don't begrudge her a single moment out of jail, because the prison of a mind improperly deprogrammed is a hell that very few can imagine. #lindakasabianinterview
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smizmar
10/30/09

@Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini: Wow! I tend to agree with you. I don't know anything about cults beyond the little I've read, and so it's extremely edifying to hear of a first-hand account. The thought processes of programming and deprogramming make a lot of sense and are what I myself have always thought.

Thank you for sharing that, and I'm so glad you got out! #lindakasabianinterview
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smizmar
10/30/09

@Beets: I'm sorry, my last post was so hurried that it didn't make much sense. I meant to write, "I tend to agree with you about Linda Kasabian" and "The thought processes...are what I have imagined them to be, despite my lack of first-hand knowledge."

Thank you again; your experiences sound chilling, and you must be such a strong person to have survived it, no matter how young you were. #lindakasabianinterview
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cirocco
10/30/09

@Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini: Holy God, Beets. I'm so sorry your parents got drawn into such a thing--my heart goes out to your family.

One thing Bugliosi's and others' accounts mention that's not covered in this article is how the Family's children were reared. Manson believed that parents shouldn't bond with their children individually, and the kids had almost no relationship with their mothers. When Linda says Tanya was "at the waterfall," this was an area pretty far geographically removed from Spahn's Ranch, and being physically separated like that was SOP, day-in, day-out. I think that's part of what allowed Linda to flee and leave her daughter behind, in addition to her mortal fear--the two didn't have the close contact that would be the norm outside the ranch. #lindakasabianinterview
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Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini
10/30/09

@cirocco: yes, I know. That sort of thing was exactly what happened in the cult I was in as well and contributed to early indoctrination and loyalty-building. I'm still friends with a whole bunch of folks from my generation who also grew up in the cult and the consensus is that none of us were allowed to bond directly with our parents, but were reared to see the leadership and the entire organization as our family and treat everyone like you would a parent or a sibling, so we were raised to believe that child molestation was loving and normal, and that any adult could reprimand any child, even with spanking. Needless to say, most of us still have serious boundary issues. #lindakasabianinterview
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Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini
10/30/09

@cirocco: also, sorry if that came off as rude, it wasn't my intention. I just get kind of robotic when I start talking about the cult. I was just thinking about how, even though I'm mostly deprogrammed, the lack of bonding with my family and complete reliance on an outside party still have an effect on my thinking. For instance, I still need someone to tell me what to in most instances. Picking out a movie or a restaurant, if left to me, can easily become an hour of standing there staring at the wall of movies or looking at every menu 10 times and I still can't make a decision, as if my life depended on this one movie/meal. This goes double for big decisions like what I should do professionally which then leads to me never fully committing to anything and just sitting her trying to make up my mind for years. It also shows itself in my relationship with my mother We never had any sort of mother-daughter relationship, but we are very good friends. I have a hard time remembering that she is my mother and we end up just treating each other like besties, giving each other life advice and trading recipes. I don't really know what a true mother-daughter relationship would even look like, but I assume that it is unusual for me to have identical conversations with my mother and my best girlfriend.

I guess my point is that no matter how distant the indoctrination is, it never fully goes away and there things, like mother-child bonding, that cannot not be redone. #lindakasabianinterview
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cirocco
10/30/09

@Beets.Go.On is the Fat Yogini: I didn't get even a glimmer of rudeness from your response. I admire the way you eloquently speak your truth and the firsthand depth it adds to the discussion. If we didn't have a cult survivor here it would be the equivalent of a bunch of white folks jawing about racism: a lot of projection and speculation and minimizing. #lindakasabianinterview
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lautaylo
10/31/09

@cirocco: And because I'm white, I shouldn't take part in a conversation about racism? It affects everyone, and everyone should be able to talk about it. #lindakasabianinterview
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cirocco
11/01/09

@lautaylo: I never said that white people shouldn't talk about racism. Please don't put words in my mouth. A conversation about racism in which only white people are participating is, however, ipso facto based in projection and speculation.

Put another way, is an all-male panel talking about discrimination against women likely to come to the same conclusions as a panel in which women had a voice? I don't think what I said is controversial or offensive. #lindakasabianinterview
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Eriu
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
I saw this a few months ago, and I have to say I really didn't buy a lot of her story. The whole thing seemed pretty fishy, but when it got to the point where she left her daughter there to save herself (and, I'm pretty sure, didn't go to the police but instead fled the state/country) I was like, "Oh, hell no." Reading up on Wikipedia only made my suspicions stronger. She had a lot of problems and I do feel bad for her, but I really don't believe she was as innocent as she's making herself out to be.

Like most documentaries about them, they also seriously glossed over or glorified some of the more effed up aspects (you know, after all the senseless murder) of their little community, which is irritating.
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Edited by Eriu at 10/30/09 3:35 PM Eriu was starred Eriu was unstarred

Andalucía
10/30/09

@Eriu: If I were her daughter I don't know how I could forgive her. Manson was a known child rapist and I doubt the rest of the men were much better with little girls.
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Edited by Andalucía at 10/30/09 3:37 PM Andalucía was starred Andalucía was unstarred

voteforme
10/30/09

@Eriu: That's my take on it too, somewhat. When you hook up with a Manson type, there can't be any way that you don't know what you're doing and risking. I believe she feels guilt and remorse now, but that's not the same thing as what she felt then. #lindakasabianinterview
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Eriu
10/30/09

@voteforme: Yeah, I don't remember what it was that she said exactly, but this hit me hard when she was talking about standing outside the Tate home listening to the murders, as though that's what the good, innocent person does. She seemed like she was trying to make the viewer relate to her, but I was like, "Uhhh, no?" #lindakasabianinterview
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Eriu
10/30/09

@Andalucía: From what I've read, her daughter is or was a drug addict and has been in and out of jail, and I don't think it's any wonder why. A lot of the really awful things that happened on the ranch are completely left out of things like this in favor of the view that they were just happy hippies playing happy music and tripping happily. This documentary also conveniently leaves out that she had sex with Manson, I think upon first meeting him, and I'm sure many times after, in favor of the idea that she and Tex had some sort of romance. I'd be interested in a documentary or book that treats these things realistically, and especially one that looks at the gender aspects of what went on with all this. #lindakasabianinterview
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voteforme
10/30/09

@Eriu: Manson reportedly had horrible views of women and wouldn't let them wear clothes on the ranch. I believe there was a post on this site about the Manson camp being proto-feminists and couldn't take it seriously. That and the racial issues (which were the motive behind the killings) are never really talked about because people like to force a narrative arc about how the Mansonites were regular hippies who went bad and ended the peace n love movement. #lindakasabianinterview
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KW03
10/30/09

@Eriu: She was just as guilty and evil as the other people there that night - the difference is that she cut a deal. #lindakasabianinterview
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inshallah123
10/30/09

@Eriu: Bugliosi's book Helter Skelter presents a pretty realistic description of how things were on the ranch, although the majority of the book is about the prosecution of the case. #lindakasabianinterview
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ericacartman
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
Has anyone seen the movie, The Manson Family? I saw a trailer for it on my TX Chainsaw DVD, and it looked completely disturbing... almost glorified. But, then, I guess that's what the whole "movement" was about. #lindakasabianinterview
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Penny
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
Even though I am a bit wimpy, I am totally fascinated by any serial killer, and I love these shows that dive into the minds of killers. I don't have cable, does anyone know if it's available online? #lindakasabianinterview
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Tchotchke
10/31/09

@Penny: Yes, I found it here: [www.megavideo.com] #lindakasabianinterview
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Antrack
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
I find it really hard to reconcile the sympathy I feel for Roman Polanski whenever I hear a description of these murders with my disgust for the rape he committed later. I know the brutal murders of his wife and unborn baby are not an excuse for his later act, but I don't think the latter would have happened absent the former. #lindakasabianinterview
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Penny
10/30/09

@Antrack: ...but I don't think the latter would have happened absent the former.

See, I don't know how anyone could know this. I actually don't have as much anger as others do toward him, but the need to tie the incidents together is kind of bogus, in my mind. #lindakasabianinterview
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Antrack
10/30/09

@Penny: You're right. You can't know, and the rape has nothing to do with the murder. It's just something I think about.

I spend way too much time thinking about why people do the horrible things that they do because I'm a lawyer and have worked in criminal courts. Some of the murderers and child rapists I've met are absolute psychos, while others are pretty normal outwardly, but there is something inside of them that makes them do these horrible things. The latter type is so much scarier to me, because you wonder if you'd be in their shoes had you lived their life. #lindakasabianinterview
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rd2uk
10/30/09

@Antrack: I kind of agree with you. Of course can't know for sure and anything we say about this is pure conjecture, but in terms of fitting the profile of a rapist, Polanski fit it far more after the murder of his pregnant wife, than he did before. #lindakasabianinterview
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rd2uk
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
I'm sure most of you know this, but Roman Polanskis pregnant wife was one of the people these folks murdered.

(im not defending him, just adding another detail to the whole thing) #lindakasabianinterview
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Penny
10/30/09

@rd2uk: I am pretty sure everyone knows this. And yes, it certainly is no defense.

Those were horrible, horrible murders, so sad... #lindakasabianinterview
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Penny
10/30/09

@Penny: Sorry, I just realized I may have come off a bit bitchy, which was certainly not my intention!! #lindakasabianinterview
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vamvaki_poulaki
10/30/09

@rd2uk: Actually, I didn't know this, I'm maybe too young so I don't know a whole lot about the Manson family story. #lindakasabianinterview
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notwhoyouthoughtiwas
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
Oh History Channel. I cannot wait to see your re-enactments. I'm sure they will be awesome in the worst possible way. I must remember to set this up in my DVR. #lindakasabianinterview
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sassyredhead
10/30/09

@notwhoyouthoughtiwas: Actually, with this one they did a really good job. One of the better things I have seen done on Manson. #lindakasabianinterview
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notwhoyouthoughtiwas
10/30/09

@sassyredhead: Really? Don't get me wrong, I love these kinds of shows. It's just that the re-enactments always make me laugh. They had one once with that was supposed to be a huge battle from the Crusades era, and there was like a total of 12 guys with wooden swords. Hysterical. #lindakasabianinterview
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sassyredhead
10/30/09

@notwhoyouthoughtiwas: Well, it isn't Emmy worthy. Just seems authentic and the actor's aren't horrible.

Usually, their reenactments seem like a 6th grade play. This is better than that. #lindakasabianinterview
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notwhoyouthoughtiwas
10/30/09

@sassyredhead: On the one hand I'm glad that the re-enactments are getting better since it really does add a lot. On the other hand, those crappy re-enactments are the best! I'll miss them. #lindakasabianinterview
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jebash
10/30/09

In reply to Former Manson Family Member Linda Kasabian Breaks Her Silence
This documentary was spellbinding. After watching it last month, I read Helter Skelter, by the lead prosecutor in the Manson case - highly recommended! #lindakasabianinterview
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sassyredhead
10/30/09

@jebash: Bugliosi has written a few really good true crime books. #lindakasabianinterview
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gherkinfiend
10/30/09

@jebash: I've read Helter Skelter before and found it fascinating...this documentary was pretty crappy in my opinion.

Far too sensationalist and while I appreciate they want it to appeal to a wide selection of people, I found it almost patronising in how it explained everything. I half expected Dick and Jane to turn up as serial killers, it was so remedial, which is a a real shame because Linda Kasabian could have been much more interestingly shown. #lindakasabianinterview
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cirocco
10/30/09

@jebash: And the Sea Will Tell is another awesome tale by Vince Bugliosi. It's about a hippie couple on the lam who sail on a leaky ship to a deserted island, where they encounter a retired couple living on their yacht. The retired couple ends up dead and the hippies take the yacht to Hawaii, where they get picked up by authorities. Bugliosi has to prove that the female hippie wasn't involved in the murders, although there are no witnesses and little physical evidence. It's the most amazing true crime book I've ever read. #lindakasabianinterview
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jebash
10/30/09

@cirocco: Ooh, sounds good! He also wrote a book on the JFK assassination, which sounded fascinating - until I realized that he believed the Warren Commission 100%. #lindakasabianinterview
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clickable
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
One of the few times I wish I had a lot of money, so I could make the grand gesture of donating money to the State of California to pay for Ms Atkins' medical care so her continued incarceration won't cost more than releasing her to die at home and her husband can STFU.
Also, Mr. Susan Atkins? Your whining is getting on my nerves. It's a good thing I'm nothing like your wife.
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whynotshesaid
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Between the Manson murders and "Slouching Towards Bethlehem," any romantic notions I once held about the 60s have been obliterated.
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wooden_shoes
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Prison is supposed to be a place of both punishment and rehabilitation, and I can't help feel that all these women were rehabilitated, but have they been punished enough? I'm inclined to say yes, and that they should be granted parole, but I'm also inclined to say no, due to the horrific nature of the crimes. I'm actually quite torn.
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truckasaurus
08/11/09

@wooden_shoes: I can see why some of these women may deserve the sympathy of parole in some ways (specifically Van Houten), but then I remember that the Tate and LaBianca families STILL attend parole hearings and argue against their release. In a case like this, I do believe that the family's wishes should be honored.
I get sick to my stomach when I think of Tate begging for the life of her baby, only to be sneered at by Atkins. Why should she be given any more compassion than what she gave to Tate?
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wooden_shoes
08/11/09

@truckasaurus is jackie jormp-jomp: Because we can not expect compassion when we ourselves are not willing to give it.
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DailyPep
08/11/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Ya know, in Tex Watson's book, Will You Die For Me, he is very forthcoming about his role in the murders, explaining that he was the one to actually end every life on those two horrible nights. The women did a lot of stabbing, but he finished every one of the victims off... including Sharon Tate, directly contradicting Vincent Bugliosi's account in Helter Skelter. Tex could be lying though. He is a murderer after all. Still, these ladies were bad bad bad bad bad bad news.
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randomnessish
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
All these comments seem so...judgemental imo. "Their only mercy is that they shouldn't be fried." "I can't believe John Waters would befriend her, that's so sick." That they should rot and die in jail. These women--and all of the other kids in the Family--were cruelly brainwashed. Heaven's Gate? The Branch Dividians? Jonestown? All were cults, in very recent memory--the only difference is that really, none of them ever got up to the point of brutally murdering and robbing innocent people. Except, of course, Jonestown (/the Branch Dividians? I can't remember), but that was at the very end of the seige.
Being young, impressionable, and under the haze of drugs constantly (it's not like I haven't tripped a few times) is dangerous.

Which is not to say that they shouldn't stay there, really--but to mark them as totally evil shouldn't be the answer.
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Edited by randomnessish at 08/10/09 11:54 PM randomnessish was starred randomnessish was unstarred

zoe3225
08/11/09

@randomnessish: The point is that those other cults, as you say, never got the the point of brutally murdering other people. If the Manson Family hadn't murdered anyone, they wouldn't be in jail. If Susan Atkins had shown Sharon Tate mercy, her pleas for a mercy release from prison wouldn't be so offensive. Yes, the difference between those other cults and the Manson Family is that the other cults didn't brutally murder innocent people. That's the whole point.
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smizmar
08/11/09

@randomnessish: I've always thought that judgement has a bit of an undeserved bad rep. I don't think there's anything wrong with judging; it's a natural function of an intellectual, thinking mind.When I start to feel a little too judgey about the Manson family, I remember that they were not above making the judgement call that Sharon Tate, her innocent unborn fetus who was very much wanted, and all their other victims did not deserve to live. (I don't care how young, fucked up, and brainwashed they were; they made an irreversible decision in determining the end of human lives.) And then I don't have any problem at all in judging them.
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Hooplehead promoted this comment Edited by smizmar at 08/11/09 12:57 AM smizmar was starred smizmar was unstarred

Hooplehead
08/11/09

@smizmar: The quote that always gets me is when Krenwinkle was stabbing Abigail Folger again and again and Folger tells her to "Stop, I'm already dead." Their absolute disregard for the suffering of the people they were slaughtering was one of the scariest things I've ever heard.
The LaBiancas, Sharon Tate, her baby and her guests died horrifically violently deaths at the hands of these crazy assholes, all for some crackpot scheme to induce a race war so that Manson could be king of the world. Roman Polanski lost his entire family that day. And for what?
Those actions were sociopathic, and yes, evil. I don't think that people are judgey or small-minded in being horrified by them. I personally have a hard time seeing the good in someone who could do those things and then argue that they have it so rough because they're still in jail. At least they're alive to be in jail, which is a damn sight better than their victims and families are doing.
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morninggloria
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
... so that's where Clay Aiken got his fashion inspiration.
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Penny
08/11/09

@morninggloria: You're terrible Muriel.....
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ytuhermanotambien
08/10/09

In reply to The Manson Family Women, 40 Years Later
Apparently Charles Manson himself is up for parole every few years too-- but it's pretty clear that they're never going to grant it, luckily.
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electricbubbles
08/11/09

@ytuhermanotambien: Not when he does things like show up to parole court with a swastika on his forehead.
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
08/11/09

@electricbubbles: Apropos to nothing, but isn't that swastika a scar?
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Jo Aage
08/11/09

@Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith: No. It started out as a tattooed cross and he later changed it to a swastika. (Don't ask me where I learned that.)
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Vivien Smith-Smythe-Smith
08/13/09

@Jo Aage: Oh I thought he'd scratched that thing on, rather than tattooing it; didn't the women do something similar in tribute to him or in solidarity or something at their trials?
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