I just did an asston of research on wrongful convictions, after a dude who was convicted of rape 35 years ago may be exonerated due to DNA evidence, and I have to tell you, it totally solidified my opposition to the death penalty. I mean, I still sometimes think that for really damaged people like the Jeffrey Dahmers and Ted Bundys of the world, that it might be okay, but your average dude convicted of a murder and robbery? Not only are there a lot of philosophical questions around it, there are a lot of practical legal/evidentiary questions as well. So I am pretty firmly anti-death penalty. Even for Casey Anthony.
@whynotshesaid: I want to say I am anti-death penalty too, but I can't honestly say I wouldn't want it for anyone who murdered one of my family or friends.
But on the other hand, rotting away in jail seems like a fine option too. Death is too easy in executions: they put you to sleep like a pound puppy. That isn't enough agony for me.
@hopelesspyromantic: Oh, I can assure you that if someone killed someone I loved, I would be all about the death penalty. But the judicial system doesn't exist to mete out revenge. It should be impartial to things like that, you know?
And yes, life in prison is pretty fucking harsh in and of itself. I think a lot of people underestimate just how bad it would suck to rot away until you are an old person in a place like that while the rest of the world goes on outside and eventually forgets about you.
I am against the death penalty across the board, but in this case in particular I would think sparing Casey Anthony's life would be a mercy to her parents.
It's bad enough their granddaughter was murdered and their daughter is mentally disturbed, to have to see their child executed adds unnecessary agony to people who did nothing wrong.
Is the alternative life in jail? Would she actually spend the rest of her life in jail? I'm not too familiar with the American justice system.
I'm torn on the death penalty. I wish Karla Homolka, who struck a deal and is out and has her own child now, was sent to death. Same with Paul Bernardo.
@AgnesGrep: I agree that the system failed with the Homolka deal. Although it was made before the full extent of her participation/planning was revealed (by the video tapes), I really feel that the Crown had grounds for revoking the plea bargain. The conditions for getting a 'deal' include being completely forthright with the prosecution and she just wasn't. There's an argument that if they had reneged on such a publicized plea bargain, it would be much harder to have people co-operate in the future (i.e criminals would think, "Spill your guts for promise of light sentence, and they'll just turn around and sentence you harshly anyway"). But, still.
All that being said, however, I am glad we do not have the death sentence in Canada. I've read too many wrongful conviction cases, even in the era of DNA evidence. Our system is too flawed for the death penalty to be defensible, in my opinion.
@smama (rant and roar): The Canadian justice system is so hugely flawed. Don't get me started on the Young Offenders Act. Heartbreaking cases like the Steven Truscott one is the main reason why I waffle on my death penalty thoughts.
Argh. The very existence of the death penalty in the world makes me feel sick. The fact that Americans do this to each other to my mind undermines all the concepts of 'freedom' and 'rights' that so many claim to be central tenets of US culture. I'll admit that this is a prejudice, but its one which I have no interest in overcoming. 'God giveth life, god taketh away' - I'm not religious, but there's a reason that this has been adopted as a principle by which humans ought to live.
I think the death penalty should be a choice. Seriously. If you told me I would look at three white walls and a set of (the wrong kind of) bars for the rest of my life, eff that -- I'm pickin' death.
That said, I entirely agree with the commenters who say that women who kill their children are treated more unfairly in court. It's likely that she would get the death penalty if found guilty.
@LouisiAnna: The issue with that, though, is the victims of the criminals weren't given a choice. Why should they have what they took away from others?
Note: I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general. I do think that life imprisonment would be worse than death, which is part of the point - it's punishment. Also, if new evidence emerges, it means people who were falsely imprisoned get released, rather than having their names cleared after they're killed by the state.
Good point about choice, btw. If someone hurt someone I loved I'd want them locked up in a tiny room until they died. I'd want to know they were suffering.
@lermanzo: Full disclosure: it is always cheaper to be imprisoned for life because there are no mandatory appellate procedures. Litigation is expensive. It is fairly inaccurate to say it is simply cheaper to imprison for life because all you are removing are the costs associated with various appeals. It would not be cheaper to imprison for life if we granted the same mandatory appeals for those imprisoned for life as we do for those considered death eligible.
Edited by Zombies make the heart grow fonder at 12/11/09 1:25 PM
Zombies make the heart grow fonder was starred
Zombies make the heart grow fonder was unstarred
@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: i don't believe that any appeals are mandatory. i believe they are very common, yes, but i haven't been able to find where they are mandatory. is there an article you could point me to? i'm really fascinated by capital punishment policy.
it also fails as a deterrent to crime, as it has about the same deterrence rates as life imprisonment, if memory serves.
@BuffySummers: She only killed one person and it didn't involve sexual abuse or torture. Classically, mothers killing their children was one of the few types of murder where leniency was more likely, but that sentiment has hugely shifted in modern times to the exact opposite. She's more likely to be unfairly (from a proportionality POV) sentenced to death when those who have committed much more heinous crimes against someone other than their own child do not get it.
@camera_obscura: Some crimes are so unbelievably heinous that your emotions want vengeance. I am trying to tell myself that life in prison isn't going to be any picnic for her either.
@camera_obscura: I agree, I just don't see how the death penalty would help here. I don't know what the answer is. Brutal serial killers don't bother me as much as murders like this, where there is such a fine line between normalcy and murder. What happened to make her do this? And the horrible black question: could it ever happen to me?
@camera_obscura: See, I don't have a "moral" issue with the death penalty, really. That is, I don't feel the weight of souls on me anytime someone gets the death penalty (that said, i've never been on a jury where that's an issue).
However, I think it's typically a racist and unfair punisment, meted out in what are, to me, prejudiced ways.
@likepenguins: I agree that there are obviously issues with racism and unfair judgments in regard to the death penalty and that the state could never be trusted to be completely infallible.
On top of that, I think the fact that I'm not a very religious person makes the death penalty for those who are truly guilty seem like sort of an easy way out. If I believed that once they were killed, they would burn in hell for all eternity, that would be one thing...but since I don't necessarily believe that, I'd like to know that they'll suffer in jail while on Earth.
@likepenguins: The one thing I know for sure is that this case is awful enough already. It doesn't need any more death.
And Bunsen Honeydew is quite right: if you want Biblical-style vengeance, lock her up with mothers who love their kids and can't see them. Even if no physical harm comes to her, that's going to be one rough sentence.
@Leucadia: Why do you assume the line is a fine one? I'm guessing there is a history of mental illness that contributed to Anthony's criminal behavior. And how many times have you heard interviews with the family or co-workers of serial killers who claimed to be shocked by the revelations once they came to light?
@PhillyLass: That's exactly it: people *seem* normal, and then they murder. I've always had a fear of experiencing serious mental illness and doing terrible things as a result -- I've had horrible dreams where I murder people by accident. I guess I believe that for a person to murder their own child, there has be some kind of insanity there.
Edited by Zombies make the heart grow fonder at 12/11/09 1:21 PM
Zombies make the heart grow fonder was starred
Zombies make the heart grow fonder was unstarred
Lots of plays are about abhorrent behavior and scheming slimedogs who seek to benefit from the tragedy of others. If this play is able to do more than exploit or explain away then it will be deserve to have some success. That said, my gut is wrenched in knots knowing that this particular story is still too soon to be told.
Last night I attended the Sydney Theatre Company's production of A Streetcar Named Desire here in DC. Through a peculiar and unplanned series of events, I attended up partying with the cast and crew after the show. My roommate and I were sitting with a number of the company's top administrators for most of the night, and since the media was one of our major topics of conversation, we ended up talking about this play quite a bit.
I can't speak for Soderbergh -- he wasn't there -- but as for those running the company itself, I have to say, they were clearly interested in the journalism/media aspect, and nothing they said struck me as remotely exploitative. They spoke with deep respect about the New York Times, saying that none of the media outlets in Australia approached its quality, and they were clearly disturbed by the media sensationalism in their home country and here.
I don't know how to feel about this play either -- I was quite taken aback by the idea when they first described it -- and I have no idea what Soderbergh's motives might be. But I do now have a great deal of faith in the professional integrity of the Sydney Theatre Company, and I'm willing to reserve judgment. #totmom
@SaturdaysChild: Well, I didn't love it quite as much as Peter Marks did -- [www.washingtonpost.com] -- but it was certainly very good. Of course, Streetcar being good meant it was incredibly depressing. I kind of wanted to die the entire time. #totmom
A blog like this one is just as much entertainment as any play. The site even has carefully scripted dialogue, stars (too obvious!) and bit players, and plenty of throwaway lines. So if it's all right to post stories of murdered children here and prominently feature Polanski's case--which meant those lurid details being rehashed in comments dozens of times--why is a film director automatically suspected of exploitation? #totmom
If it were another writer, I would be more worried. Soderbergh's work, while not all golden, does tend to be nuanced and smart.
Nancy Grace being a famewhore about it is no surprise, but honestly I'd be surprised if the play didn't involve skewering her role in all of this. Her interpretation of the play on her site may not be accurate.
Art, in all its forms, can help us make sense of things, as well as make us look at something with a new angle. I trust Soderbergh as an artist to handle this with some grace(no pun intended) and not to turn this into TMZ: The Musical. #totmom
@Chamalla,barren crone: The title alone makes me suspect this play might portray Grace in at least a partially unfavorable light. Her insistence on repeating the name "Tot Mom" as often as possible is grating and ridiculous. #totmom
That being said, there's something a little too "Ripped from the Headlines"/Law & Order about this. But it could also be brilliant, so I guess it all remains to be seen. #totmom
And yet another reason why Jon Gosselin is pure amateur at this 15 minutes game. Can he be original for once? Nope? Yeah, I didn't think so either. #jongosselin
12/11/09
12/11/09
But on the other hand, rotting away in jail seems like a fine option too. Death is too easy in executions: they put you to sleep like a pound puppy. That isn't enough agony for me.
12/11/09
And yes, life in prison is pretty fucking harsh in and of itself. I think a lot of people underestimate just how bad it would suck to rot away until you are an old person in a place like that while the rest of the world goes on outside and eventually forgets about you.
12/12/09
12/11/09
It's bad enough their granddaughter was murdered and their daughter is mentally disturbed, to have to see their child executed adds unnecessary agony to people who did nothing wrong.
12/11/09
12/11/09
I'm torn on the death penalty. I wish Karla Homolka, who struck a deal and is out and has her own child now, was sent to death. Same with Paul Bernardo.
12/11/09
All that being said, however, I am glad we do not have the death sentence in Canada. I've read too many wrongful conviction cases, even in the era of DNA evidence. Our system is too flawed for the death penalty to be defensible, in my opinion.
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
That said, I entirely agree with the commenters who say that women who kill their children are treated more unfairly in court. It's likely that she would get the death penalty if found guilty.
Also, I'd pick death by firing squad.
12/11/09
Note: I'm not a fan of the death penalty in general. I do think that life imprisonment would be worse than death, which is part of the point - it's punishment. Also, if new evidence emerges, it means people who were falsely imprisoned get released, rather than having their names cleared after they're killed by the state.
12/11/09
12/11/09
Good point about choice, btw. If someone hurt someone I loved I'd want them locked up in a tiny room until they died. I'd want to know they were suffering.
Goodness, I'm cheery!
12/11/09
12/11/09
it also fails as a deterrent to crime, as it has about the same deterrence rates as life imprisonment, if memory serves.
12/16/09
12/11/09
*I don't support the death penalty, but I'm curious as to why they think it shouldn't apply here
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
Death Penalty would be a treat compared to that.
12/11/09
12/11/09
However, I think it's typically a racist and unfair punisment, meted out in what are, to me, prejudiced ways.
So, I don't know how to feel about this case.
12/11/09
On top of that, I think the fact that I'm not a very religious person makes the death penalty for those who are truly guilty seem like sort of an easy way out. If I believed that once they were killed, they would burn in hell for all eternity, that would be one thing...but since I don't necessarily believe that, I'd like to know that they'll suffer in jail while on Earth.
12/11/09
And Bunsen Honeydew is quite right: if you want Biblical-style vengeance, lock her up with mothers who love their kids and can't see them. Even if no physical harm comes to her, that's going to be one rough sentence.
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
12/11/09
11/01/09
11/01/09
I can't speak for Soderbergh -- he wasn't there -- but as for those running the company itself, I have to say, they were clearly interested in the journalism/media aspect, and nothing they said struck me as remotely exploitative. They spoke with deep respect about the New York Times, saying that none of the media outlets in Australia approached its quality, and they were clearly disturbed by the media sensationalism in their home country and here.
I don't know how to feel about this play either -- I was quite taken aback by the idea when they first described it -- and I have no idea what Soderbergh's motives might be. But I do now have a great deal of faith in the professional integrity of the Sydney Theatre Company, and I'm willing to reserve judgment. #totmom
11/01/09
11/02/09
11/02/09
11/01/09
11/01/09
11/01/09
11/01/09
11/01/09
Nancy Grace being a famewhore about it is no surprise, but honestly I'd be surprised if the play didn't involve skewering her role in all of this. Her interpretation of the play on her site may not be accurate.
Art, in all its forms, can help us make sense of things, as well as make us look at something with a new angle. I trust Soderbergh as an artist to handle this with some grace(no pun intended) and not to turn this into TMZ: The Musical. #totmom
11/01/09
11/01/09
That being said, there's something a little too "Ripped from the Headlines"/Law & Order about this. But it could also be brilliant, so I guess it all remains to be seen. #totmom
10/31/09
And yet another reason why Jon Gosselin is pure amateur at this 15 minutes game. Can he be original for once? Nope? Yeah, I didn't think so either.
#jongosselin
10/31/09