Jezebel 
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New York, 10:00 PM
Wed Dec 2
71 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/25/09
I do believe that the system is designed with the protection of women in mind because historically women were left out of so many things (voting, owning land, job promotions etc etc) but now that we women have these protections in place there are definitely some women that take full advantage of the same system that will save another woman's life. I see women call the police on boyfriends/husbands after SHE has thrown all the dishes at him and thrown him out of the house and the cops have arrived and told the guy to leave. Then she goes and gets an order of protection and cries that she's afraid of him when he should be afraid of her. (btw... WE tv has an episode of 'secret lives of women' coming up called 'husband beaters') Now... I know that this type of situation is NOT the norm (hopefully) but it does happen. "Men's rights groups" sounds funny because history and society have favored men in general so I don't know about all that... what I do know is that I am glad for the protections that women's rights advocacy groups have worked so hard to give me but I am sad and frustrated that there are quite a few women/girls that take advantage and therefore lower the value of a system that is absolutely necessary.
11/25/09
Sort of the same way a "Southern Heritage" group might be a good idea in theory but is always, always, ALWAYS just a lot of barely watered-down Klan meetings in practice.
I suppose it might be a good idea for feminism to look out for men's rights too just because any masculism movement is almost certainly going to be obnoxious and crazy.
11/25/09
Or, in this case, about women 'crying' rape and stealing 'men's' jobs.
11/25/09
11/25/09
My mother was in an abusive relationship with my father, and during their recent divorce in the state of New Jersey, absolutely no accommodations for her safety, or reparations or any kind, were made. The abuse was completely ignored... and this is in NJ, a fairly progressive state. I can't imagine what the legal system is like for abused women in more conservative states.
Our discourse may be dominated by feminist advocacy groups, but the actual laws on the books are still male centric.
In fact, due to some quirk in the way the house was split in the divorce, my mother is required to let him stay in the house a month a year until the house is sold (there is a separate apartment, not in the actual same living quarters, and they are holding off on selling until the market turns up). He is using Dec '09 and Jan '10, meaning he is going to be here for two months.
I hate him and do not want to see him. I'm tempted to stay with a friend in another city for those two months because I don't want to put up with him and he basically stalks me so I can't just avoid him in normal ways. However, I'm scared to leave my mother alone in the house, as my last memory of the last time they were both in the same house I was awoken early in the morning by her screams as he picked her up and basically threw her on the concrete. So I am staying here out of fear for her, because if he somehow approaches her and attacks her, at least I can hear her scream and dial 911.
That is the situation in terms of abusers that the court had no qualms leaving my mother and I in.
I don't think that feminists dominate any system, or else I would not be dealing with this.
11/24/09
As for the whole "the movement is messed up because it infantalizes women who are "free" to choose whether they have contact with the abuser argument" I refer to the whole "obedience to authority" research and its fallout.
Having said that, I LOVE men. I'd be first in line to sign up and support a men's movement that was all about undoing patriarchy and the benefits that men and their female collaborators receive from it.
11/24/09
I believe in equality for men, women, and every other gender in between. In our world that means liberating non-male and minority male (I guess I mean gay male) people from patriarchal heterosexist oppression.
Individual straight males in our society have it bad for various reasons and they deserve liberation too, but there is no society on earth where men are generally oppressed by women. We can talk about matriarchies that have existed (and probably don't anymore) but at the end of the day, this is the world we live in. The bias against men that exists is tiny compared to the bias against women, and comes from the same place of binary gender roles, which devalue "feminine" traits (like diplomacy, child rearing, etc).
I've edited this like a billion times trying to make it really clear. I don't feel like men oppress women on a daily, individual basis, just as I don't think most racist people go around saying and doing racist things. I think both things are ingrained, subtle and acted out in a plethora of ways throughout a person's life. I don't feel personally oppressed by the men in my life, but I do think men (the patriarchy) oppress women (and other men) worldwide, and in the West. Sometimes women help them oppress, but that in no ways means that women are oppressing men in an equal exchange.
Does that make sense? Can someone help me find a way to say this?
11/24/09
Men and women are unequal at this point, with women suffering from unequality in every aspect of life. In order to fight that state, they need a movement of their own. People who talk about 'humanism' or 'equalism' who expend equal amounts of effort therefore preserve that inequality, because in order to raise women to the levels of power and influence in proportion to their numbers requires more effort. Women have a deficit; they stand in a hole.
Part of correcting injustice is calling attention to it. That is why women need their own movement and their own word. Why does that make so many people unhappy and uncomfortable? Because they recognize that women face some things specifically because of their gender, that's why. People don't want to acknowledge sexism that is particularly directed at women. They want to make it disappear. And that's why we need a light called 'feminism' to shine attention on the things that are woven into our culture and into us from birth. Once sexism is gone, or reduced, other isms will disappear as well. Sexism is the oldest prejudice. Men did not have to encounter other tribes before he encountered the idea that he could dominate women by virtue of greater size and strength.
11/24/09
Men's Rights Groups: No. It's a misnomer that sucks in some guys that have had actual problems, but mostly guys who are angry at women in general. And to be honest, I find their angry to seem violent and violating. I have never met a men's right's group that didn't advocate for hurting women or allow at least some of its members to advocate for it in the form of forced abortions or impoverishment through divorce or lack of child-support payment.
If they said "Hey, we need to advocate for the male pill so men have more reproductive freedom," I would agree with them.
If they said "We need more restrictions on alimony payments for able-bodied, educated workers," I would agree with them. (I have seen that issue in particular cut both ways.)
If they said "We need to standardize the process for determining custody in a way that is gender-blind," I would agree with them.
But they don't say that. They say "I want to make her have an abortion because I didn't wear a condom." They say "That bitch took everything when I traded her in for a trophy wife. I wish she was dead." They say "She stole my kids and is poisoning them against me."
If that wasn't a fair assessment of how men's rights groups react to women, I would support them. Unfortunately, it is.
11/24/09
But yes, we need to teach boys it's okay to have feelings and tha need to care for their sexual health and personal safety, give them confidence and independance
11/25/09
My personal favorite, from a man explaining one of the causes that his Men's Rights group has championed:
"I just think I should have the right to put a clause in our pre-nup that says I can divorce her and not pay her any child support or alimony if she gains more than 10 pounds. That's a right I should have." Okay dood, carry on fighting the good fight-- what a lucky woman who will inevitably fall for your bullshit.
Then again, when my brother-in-law got a lot of shit from my husband's family about switching with his wife and becoming a stay at home parent, I stood up for him. And if he and my sister-in-law divorced, I'd completely support an equitable custody agreement, because they're both dedicated parents, no matter who is taking primary care of the kids.
11/25/09
If men's rights is about gender equality, than these groups really have to be interested in challenging patriarchy's harmful effects on men - not in clinging to their male privilege.
11/25/09
#tips
11/24/09
Equality with men implies men are the standard. Fuck that bullshit. Men are the fucking oppressors! I want liberation from male oppression! Men can have equality with women if they want.
11/24/09
But still, if you cast men as The Oppressors, you're not only playing into every feminist stereotype ever, but you're being unfair.
11/24/09
11/25/09
@Cimorene: There's a whole patriarchal system that oppresses. Men are in large part responsible for creating it, and for a lot of the actual oppression. But I've gotten a lot of sexist shit from women, and I've known a lot of very feminist men. So yeah, saying that across the board ALL MEN ARE OPPPRESSORS is a big lazy generalization and not even true.
If I'm walking alone at night and some dude asks me for directions, I have to start worrying that this guy is going to follow me or rape me or even just annoy the shit out of me by hitting on me when I clearly do not want to speak to him, and that sucks, and I think one of feminism's major goals is to create a world where I don't have to feel that way. But it's not the dude's fault I'm worried -- he's just asking for directions, because he's lost and it's late so I'm the first person he's passed since he realized how lost he was. I feel worried because of a court system that rarely convicts rapists and a culture that doesn't discourage sexual assault nearly as much as it should, and as much as I'd like to pretend it's not true, women are part of that.
11/25/09
11/25/09
All this "patriarchy hurts men too" bs is just a smoke screen to keep women from being too angry or to frustrated or too desperate to actually make any changes or take drastic measures. Of course patriarchy hurts men, but for fuck's sake come ON. It also gives them all the fucking power.
I cannot believe that there are people who don't understand that the patriarchy hates women and gives men power. Christ on a cracker.
11/25/09
These things may not be on the same level as the propagation of rape culture or the wage gap, but they still matter. While combating male oppressors, we must also hold ourselves to a high standard.
#tips
11/24/09
I'm sorry, I find it very difficult to fee sorry for men. I don't HATE men, but seriously? Don't bitch and whine about how women are favored in divorce with child custody when a majority of women have their standards of living lowered after divorce, even into poverty - and a lot of times, that includes kids. Don't bitch about high payments for child support and the lack of time to visit when so often child support doesn't even cover the basics for your child and are clearly NOT 1/2 of what it takes to raise a child. Don't bitch about women not having to ask your permission to abort a fetus you helped create when so many men run off or do a half-assed job when she does have the baby, and a lot of those men were the ones who PROMISED "oh yeah keep the baby we'll raise it together!". Don't bitch about "sexual harrasment" being thrown around when the vast, VAST majority of rapes are swept under the rug as soon as the rapist says, "well it was consensual." Don't bitch about women getting more sick time for their kids and maternity leave for having children when she's the one doing the majority of the house work and not getting equal pay.
You know? They either need to sit down and shut up OR do something about the GENERALIZED injustices to women every day that aren't a mere pain in the ass or inconvenience, but literally a matter of life and death, and THEN they can bitch all they want.
11/24/09
These men are realizing that rigid and stereotypical gender roles (e.g., men are unfeeling brutes, men are violent) don't serve them very well.
Feminist have been working against those gender roles for a long time, and men reap/will reap the benefits of gender equality (as well as, I suppose, suffer the consequences of not earning more than women for no reason and not being all the presidents for no reason).
Unfortunately they lash out at feminists. Why this is, I don't know, I'm sure it's complicated and has to do with Right-wing penchant for self-victimization, as well as plain ole misogyny.
As Janet Radcliffe Richards was quoted above, the message is simple: "No feminist whose concern for women stems from a concern for justice in general can ever legitimately allow her only interest to be the advantage of women."
Now how can we invite these men and others to see that feminism does "set out to change all damaging gender stereotypes, including stereotypes about men"?
11/24/09
11/24/09
Becoming a feminist gave me a license to express anger. And I admit, I went overboard with it at first. After some years passed, I realized that I was expressing specific, personal anger about specific men in my life that was stored up in my body, but against a generalized idea of "men." I was expressing this anger without realizing its true source, which was damaging to me and not fair to the men who happened to be in my way at the time. Now that I've learned to stop repressing and denying my own emotions, I no longer cloak my personal issues with an overarching anger towards men, and I can communicate with men and women about feminism without sounding like one of those crazy man-hating ball-busting feminists that Kathryn Young caricatures here.
So yes. Men are damaged by the patriarchy, and that should stop. Women are damaged by the patriarchy, and that needs to stop. One way to do this is to stop teaching children that certain emotions are more or less appropriate depending on your gender. Girls and women can get angry, and boys and men can get weepy and sad. More feminism will help men, AND it will decrease the incidence of ball-busting man-hating anger from immature feminists.
11/24/09
It's too easy to fall back on the same old crap where it suddenly is all about the men's issues and men telling women what is important and how to do feminism. That doesn't work. As a white lady with a soul I care about racial equality and I benefit from breaking down racial barriers even as there is potential for lost privilege, but it isn't my place to use the fact that I'm used to being listened to to tell WoC how to "do" anti-racism.
I'm not saying that all men in the movement need to shut up and be schooled, or can only be allies and not full-fledged feminists, but it is a fine line where, as unfair as it seems sometimes, men need to defer to the fact of women's lived experiences when dealing with feminist issues over their own perceptions of the issues. Men are so used to hearing that their perceptions and opinions and solutions matter a whole lot and I understand why this is hard to let go of (as a white, middle class, college educated woman I can find myself telling other people's stories for them or trusting my perceptions over other people's in spite of good intentions, because I was socialized to be confidant that my opinions are legitimate. )
Its a balancing act of allowing men to fully participate and benefit without being marginalized, but also without sacrificing the needs and voices of the women that feminism is designed to serve. It's actually kind of simple but can get really complicated because so many of these attitudes about gender roles are socialized into our subconscious even when we think we are free of them or try our best to be.
11/24/09
Anyway, what I really wanted to say was in regards to this: "men need to defer to the fact of women's lived experiences when dealing with feminist issues over their own perceptions of the issues."
My whole first paragraph was basically me agreeing with that, but I want to mention that in cases where men are oppressed by patriarchal attitudes and gender roles (patriarchy hurts everyone, after all), that men's own lived experiences ought to be deferred to over women's perceptions of those experiences, in those specific cases. I hope that makes sense.
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
And it needs to be said: Cathy Young is an outright anti-feminist. She's outright hostile to feminism and makes no bones about it. She finds everything about the movement to be wrong, and everything she writes has that slant, though of course she doesn't own up to it.
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
11/24/09
The problem with that comparison is that the negative effects that racism has on whites is minimal, while the negative effects that patriarchy has on men (while certainly less than women) is considerable.
For example, having gotten my ass beat for being queer sucked. Currently living in a country where I know that there are many places I can't travel with my husband because we'd be targeted for violence because we're queer sucks. Similarly having to hide our relationship in all but the most liberal of spaces/circumstances for fear of reprisal sucks. (Not to mention the extra taxes we pay... don't get me started.) Having been raised without a father also sucked a whole lot too (though given how crazy mine is, maybe not so much.) And I think I can be pretty certain that the magnitude of that cumulative suck is a few orders higher than any negative repercussions I've felt from being white.
Now that is not to say that many of the whack-nuts in these MRA groups don't have their heads planted firmly up their asses, but that doesn't mean that the negative effects of the patriarchy aren't felt (sometimes acutely) by some men who may have as vested an interest as some women in challenging and changing the systems that support it.
11/24/09
trala, really back to studying now.
11/25/09
11/24/09
Although we as women like to believe that feminism encompasses both sexes, dichotomous historical feminist philosophy and literature suggests otherwise. The women's rights movements largely rested upon the proposition that woman were inherently equal to (or greater) than man. It was a struggle for WOMEN to gain equality in education, work, and social norms.
Compare this to Womanism, which centers on the experience of African-American women. From its inception, black women have been concerned with race, class,gender... Womanism, as result, is centered on the BLACK COMMUNITY, not merely women's advancement alone. For example, the Civil Rights Movement acknowledged, to an extent, that race transcends gender lines when black men and women unitedly organized. Compare this to the face of the Women's (not gender) Rights Movement.
Do you know which demographic has been most affected by this recession? Men. Men, in particular black men, have had the greatest layoffs during this recession.
As a result, black women are largely the head of households as they have a far greater probability of graduating high school, attending college, and attaining employment than black men.
Given that women far outnumber men in college (both black and whites), what is the future for men who will assist raising our children?
Black feminist groups have thus been left to grapple with these issues. How can women help rebuild our black community?
11/24/09