So, I'm currently reading Your Money or Your Life, and it makes me wonder - is there any chance women make less money because they put less importance on money? (As a whole.) Working in fields like education, nursing, etc. give women jobs that may make them feel more personally fulfilled. At some point, I realized that I didn't particularly like my job - and no amount of money is going to make me like it more. My salary could double and I would still find it stressful, full of politics, high-pressure, and not particularly engaging. As a result, I'm in the process of applying to grad school for an MFA - something I KNOW is going to cause me to lose a great chunk of money of the next few years in pursuit of something I feel I can do with integrity.
Is money really the standard by which we feel we need to judge our equality? That is to say, are there perhaps good reasons some women choose less aggressive career tracks, or to stay home with children for a few years, or to work part-time and take care of their aging parents, or to start their own lower-paying businesses altogether?
@rixatrix: "is there any chance women make less money because they put less importance on money? "
Reseach shows that even when type of work, sector and level of education and experience between men and women are identical, women are still underpaid. Read 'Women Don't Ask' for further info.
@Plum-Pie: Yes, but women as a whole are still taking time off to care for children and relatives; they're still quitting their jobs to move with their husbands and families where he can get work; they're still the ones who leave work to pick up Jimmy when he's sick at school. What I mean to say is - perhaps as a group, women put more importance on intangible things, like community, family, a sense of well-being, and for that reason, women, as a group, continue to earn less. Do you see what I'm saying?
Of course there are women who are in high-pressure jobs, earning high salaries and pushing the glass ceiling. But I would say as a gender, women are still the ones who are expected to, or expect themselves to take care of people. And maybe part of the reason why women as a group don't make as much money as men is because we put more importance on these other things than the almighty dollar. There comes a time when you do have to choose between what's important to you and money - if you never have to make that choice, you're very, very lucky.
Yes, but women as a whole are still taking time off to care for children and relatives; they're still quitting their jobs to move with their husbands and families where he can get work; they're still the ones who leave work to pick up Jimmy when he's sick at school.
@rixatrix: I would argue that women do those things because, come on, who else is going to?
And I'm not talking about the whole "oh haha husbands are lazy" standard. I'm saying that when it comes down to the husband or wife taking time off work to care for sick relatives, it's assumed the wife will do this. It's assumed they will quit their job to move with their husband. It's assumed they will take time off to care for their kids.
And part of the reason it's assumed is that the husband, often, makes more money, and therefore it makes sense for the wife to do those things. So really, perhaps the fact that it's women taking care of these things is a product of, rather than a cause of, the pay gap.
It is also important to note that women are more likely to seek stability than men and are thus drawn to more stable, less lucrative fields like education and health care. A struggling economy tends to illuminate the struggle between risk and reward.
@winner: yes but even those "stable" jobs are very unstable right now depending on where you live. I could name 5 teachers off the top of my head who got laid off this summer. Last week a local (large successful) hospital announced they were cutting 200+ jobs.
@bluebears: Totally true. But I have an architect friend who's totally out of work. His wife is also an architect who, ironically, works on hospitals and schools and her company is actually hiring right now.
Everything is unstable right now but some are less stable.
Yet again women get screwed. I am now doing the work of two people, while also having taken a pay cut and a forced "furlough." Something tells me once the economy gets better, my salary will never be restored to its previous level. Excuse me while I gouge out corporate America's eye with my stiletto heel.
Firstly, good for Trunk for talking about this so matter-of-factly. Frankly, I know people who felt this relieved and unemotional about their own abortions but they didn't stand up in front of a crowded room to talk about it, let alone go on national television to be interviewed by some sanctimonious, self-professed 'Catholic'.
Secondly, there's nothing about her tone and body language that is either teenage or bratty. Yes, she's slightly hostile but she's been put into a position where a slight air of hostility is actually warranted. If she'd acted coy or flirtatious, or - god forbid - humbled by that pompous ass, she would have looked like a silly bit of fluff who doesn't have the courage to stand by her actions.
Thirdly, I don't have Aspergers Syndrome so I don't claim to be an expert but using that to explain Trunk's attitude smacks to me of the myth that people with ASDs don't feel emotions 'properly'. Yes, perhaps having an ASD helps Trunk to retain her cool under fire in some way, but I feel like her reason for not caring about her miscarriage and who knew about it was that she JUST DIDN'T CARE. Again, I can't be sure, as I never had it medically checked but I feel that I had a miscarriage a year or so ago and I really don't give a shit. If anything I'm really super pleased. And me - or Trunk, or anyone, male, female, transgender, intersex, or otherwise - saying that does not in any way take away from the serious pain that unwanted miscarriages cause.
Finally, and most importantly: despite what I said above, I really didn't know much about miscarriages before watching that clip. I didn't know how long they can last (I just thought I was having an inordinately long period), I didn't know that they weren't invariably agonizing (except perhaps in the first month or so), and I have certainly never witnessed anyone discuss them on national news before, despite the fact that so many women experience miscarriage at least once in their lives (whether it's 25 or 75 percent, it's still a lot of women). It's not just men like Sanchez that are getting an education about this kind of thing, it's women like me, who think of themselves as educated and informed feminists. If me and my ilk don't know then clearly we DO need to talk about this kind of thing publicly.
It really makes my day to see a woman who is unashamed of wanting and actively seeking out an abortion. Women should not have to feel shamed for something which is not shameful. I love how she is not the sad, regretful abortion- seeking woman we normally see in the media. She shows that yes, there are some women who want an abortion and are unapologetic in wanting it. Good for you, Penelope.
I love this. I love that she was so honest, and was not flustered when that asshole was clearly trying to get her to have an emotional reaction--do you have no shame? really? how does that even approach an acceptable question?
I had never heard of her before; now I am a huge fan.
This clip does nothing to change my original opinion.
This woman's tone and body language are those of a bratty teenager. Is there a way to advocate for women's reproductive rights without sounding like a 16 year-old daring her parents to give her a curfew?
I agree there is plenty of benefit to be gained from women sharing their experiences with miscarriage and abortion in a no-nonsense manner, but that doesn't have to mean being crass and obnoxious.
Women seem to be able to talk about their breasts (mammograms, mastectomies, lactation...) without sounding like crude, huffy little twats. When I hear women argue in favor of public breastfeeding they don't seem to feel the need to use coarse language or belligerent tones. So what's the deal with some pro-choicers who feel the need to combat "hushed reverent tones" with "brazen" and childish outbursts?
@MizJenkins: What coarse language did she use? I didn't notice any. And I didn't think her tone was at all bratty.
In fact, after getting called "young lady," I thought she handled herself quite respectably. I mean, calling a woman "young lady" is as offensive as if he had said "fuck you, lady," in my opinion.
@MizJenkins: She didn't seem at all bratty to me. She seemed matter-of-fact and candid when she was asked questions. I didn't notice anything childish about her either, I think she was very mature and calm, especially given the condescending hostility of her interviewer. I also didn't notice any coarse language at all.
I admire Trunk's ability to speak openly about her experiences. I also think it's bizarre that all of a sudden, people are freaking out because "ZOMG TMI!!!11!1!" particularly in the TV new media.
First of all, we live in a society where the lines between the public and private sphere have been irreversibly blurred. As a consequence, there are people who are more comfortable sharing information that people wouldn't have shared in the past. whatever, i'm not following that stuff on twitter (i don't even have a twitter account, get off my lawn!) and i'm not posting it, but, as I said, whatever.
What gets my goat is this faux outrage from the info-tainment industry, (and yes, CNN is part of that, no matter how many times they want to call themselves a serious news organization. exception: Fareed Zakaria - serious business) these are same people who deemed that "ZOMG Tori Spelling was admitted to the hospital with stomach pain!" somehow qualifies as news. Or that the sister of a girl who is famous because of a sex tape (talk about your TMi!) is getting married. Or that the top 800 meter runner is transgendered. how is this any of my business? someone in the news decided it was, because this shit is all over the TV.
And now, they want to turn around and tell a woman who is talking about her own personal life that "young lady, we just don't discuss these things in civilized company." Give me a frakking break. this is an industry that thrives on oversharing and spreading it around.
And all Trunk has done was use this environment of oversharing to steer the conversation to a topic that she feels is important (and frankly, I agree). and if that was truly her intent, well, good on her.
We live in a society where we are encouraged to work and to have sex, when and with whom we want. But at the same time, technology doesn't have us totally covered. Birth control is only 99.99% effective. There is a RISK, which scares me. I'm supposed to be able to enjoy sex, not necessarily for procreating, when and with whom I want, but there is this risk that I'll get pregnant. And if I do, I better not talk about it. No one wants to hear about it. Hell, my own mother doesn't want to talk about that hypothetical. I realize that the solution to not having a baby- abortion- makes some people uncomfortable because of their religious views. Well, I am actually sympathetic to those people, even though I don't agree. But I ask them, why are you shaming women? Do you want us back in the kitchen, slaving over an open fire? Because with the freedom to work comes complex deadlines, goals and agendas that require long-term family planning. And some of us cannot just stop and have a baby tomorrow. So, to the people who don't want us to abort: why aren't you in the lab, coming up with better protection?
I think PT handled herself reasonably well. But she was given a major boost care of the asshattery of Rick Sanchez. Who is this fucker, with his "I'm a Catholic," "birthing a human being," "young lady" bullshit? It's tough not to look good next to that hulking mass of self-righteous prickitude.
@PhillyLass: That said, I still find PT's original tweet massively TMI. I'm happy to discuss the condition of being a woman with my friends and my gynocologist. With co-workers? Not so much. Similarly, I have no interest in hearing about male co-workers' experience of the masculine condition. I don't need to hear about their prostates, or their vasectomies, or the wonders of their little blue pills.
I'm truly shocked and pleased to see this. I don't really hold an opinion about the fact that it was tweeted on a work account because, as she pointed out, her whole thing is about online-based self-branding. she obviously does not have a problem with this being a part of her brand. its her own personal business, both in the personal and the business sense.
but im REALLY happy to see a very clear and non-apologetic view about abortion rights on television. im sure a lot of people will be offended by her honesty, but i on the other hand feel so empowered by it. i had an abortion when i was 18 and whenever i tell someone about it they assume it must have been such a traumatic experience from which i'll never be able to recover. but instead i felt such a relief that i was able to avoid the traumatic experience of teen-motherhood. im very happy to see these conversations move away from the "trauma" of choice.
I love her, if only for a) looking so blatantly pissed off, b) being civil to this turd despite it, and c) acting like going to have an abortion was exactly what it was to her: an inconvenience. She's got kids. She wanted them. She didn't want anymore. This miscarriage was a blessing, for her. I can't help but respect her honesty.
Ugh, why can no interviewer ask a concise question without stammering on, usually in a self-serving way, and asking their interviewee a completely incoherent ramble with an inflection at the end that's the only signal that they asked something? Like that for instance. I wouldn't repeat my long question to Rick Sanchez, I'd just ask him why he sucks so hard at interviewing. And why he's condescending. Young lady, kiss my grits.
@annebreal: I think it's usually because the interviewer wants to make sure people know how smart he or she is, or where they stand on a particular issue. The problem is that they forget that the interview is NOT ABOUT THEM. Sorry Rich Sanchez, but no one cares what you think about this issue.
I think it's important to note that she mentioned how she already has children. Many abortion opponents believe that the only women who get abortions are single, irresponsible, and/or slutty.
@this_charming_one: Agreed. In fact, about 60 percent of women who get abortions already have at least one child. They know exactly what pregnancy and raising a child will cost them, emotionally, physically and financially. Yet another reason why waiting periods and mandatory counseling sessions are so condescending.
10/06/09
Is money really the standard by which we feel we need to judge our equality? That is to say, are there perhaps good reasons some women choose less aggressive career tracks, or to stay home with children for a few years, or to work part-time and take care of their aging parents, or to start their own lower-paying businesses altogether?
10/06/09
Reseach shows that even when type of work, sector and level of education and experience between men and women are identical, women are still underpaid. Read 'Women Don't Ask' for further info.
10/06/09
Of course there are women who are in high-pressure jobs, earning high salaries and pushing the glass ceiling. But I would say as a gender, women are still the ones who are expected to, or expect themselves to take care of people. And maybe part of the reason why women as a group don't make as much money as men is because we put more importance on these other things than the almighty dollar. There comes a time when you do have to choose between what's important to you and money - if you never have to make that choice, you're very, very lucky.
10/06/09
@rixatrix: I would argue that women do those things because, come on, who else is going to?
And I'm not talking about the whole "oh haha husbands are lazy" standard. I'm saying that when it comes down to the husband or wife taking time off work to care for sick relatives, it's assumed the wife will do this. It's assumed they will quit their job to move with their husband. It's assumed they will take time off to care for their kids.
And part of the reason it's assumed is that the husband, often, makes more money, and therefore it makes sense for the wife to do those things. So really, perhaps the fact that it's women taking care of these things is a product of, rather than a cause of, the pay gap.
10/05/09
10/05/09
10/05/09
Everything is unstable right now but some are less stable.
10/05/09
10/03/09
Secondly, there's nothing about her tone and body language that is either teenage or bratty. Yes, she's slightly hostile but she's been put into a position where a slight air of hostility is actually warranted. If she'd acted coy or flirtatious, or - god forbid - humbled by that pompous ass, she would have looked like a silly bit of fluff who doesn't have the courage to stand by her actions.
Thirdly, I don't have Aspergers Syndrome so I don't claim to be an expert but using that to explain Trunk's attitude smacks to me of the myth that people with ASDs don't feel emotions 'properly'. Yes, perhaps having an ASD helps Trunk to retain her cool under fire in some way, but I feel like her reason for not caring about her miscarriage and who knew about it was that she JUST DIDN'T CARE. Again, I can't be sure, as I never had it medically checked but I feel that I had a miscarriage a year or so ago and I really don't give a shit. If anything I'm really super pleased. And me - or Trunk, or anyone, male, female, transgender, intersex, or otherwise - saying that does not in any way take away from the serious pain that unwanted miscarriages cause.
Finally, and most importantly: despite what I said above, I really didn't know much about miscarriages before watching that clip. I didn't know how long they can last (I just thought I was having an inordinately long period), I didn't know that they weren't invariably agonizing (except perhaps in the first month or so), and I have certainly never witnessed anyone discuss them on national news before, despite the fact that so many women experience miscarriage at least once in their lives (whether it's 25 or 75 percent, it's still a lot of women). It's not just men like Sanchez that are getting an education about this kind of thing, it's women like me, who think of themselves as educated and informed feminists. If me and my ilk don't know then clearly we DO need to talk about this kind of thing publicly.
10/01/09
10/01/09
I had never heard of her before; now I am a huge fan.
10/01/09
This woman's tone and body language are those of a bratty teenager. Is there a way to advocate for women's reproductive rights without sounding like a 16 year-old daring her parents to give her a curfew?
I agree there is plenty of benefit to be gained from women sharing their experiences with miscarriage and abortion in a no-nonsense manner, but that doesn't have to mean being crass and obnoxious.
Women seem to be able to talk about their breasts (mammograms, mastectomies, lactation...) without sounding like crude, huffy little twats. When I hear women argue in favor of public breastfeeding they don't seem to feel the need to use coarse language or belligerent tones. So what's the deal with some pro-choicers who feel the need to combat "hushed reverent tones" with "brazen" and childish outbursts?
10/01/09
In fact, after getting called "young lady," I thought she handled herself quite respectably. I mean, calling a woman "young lady" is as offensive as if he had said "fuck you, lady," in my opinion.
10/02/09
10/01/09
First of all, we live in a society where the lines between the public and private sphere have been irreversibly blurred. As a consequence, there are people who are more comfortable sharing information that people wouldn't have shared in the past. whatever, i'm not following that stuff on twitter (i don't even have a twitter account, get off my lawn!) and i'm not posting it, but, as I said, whatever.
What gets my goat is this faux outrage from the info-tainment industry, (and yes, CNN is part of that, no matter how many times they want to call themselves a serious news organization. exception: Fareed Zakaria - serious business) these are same people who deemed that "ZOMG Tori Spelling was admitted to the hospital with stomach pain!" somehow qualifies as news. Or that the sister of a girl who is famous because of a sex tape (talk about your TMi!) is getting married. Or that the top 800 meter runner is transgendered. how is this any of my business? someone in the news decided it was, because this shit is all over the TV.
And now, they want to turn around and tell a woman who is talking about her own personal life that "young lady, we just don't discuss these things in civilized company." Give me a frakking break. this is an industry that thrives on oversharing and spreading it around.
And all Trunk has done was use this environment of oversharing to steer the conversation to a topic that she feels is important (and frankly, I agree). and if that was truly her intent, well, good on her.
10/03/09
10/01/09
10/01/09
10/01/09
10/01/09
10/01/09
but im REALLY happy to see a very clear and non-apologetic view about abortion rights on television. im sure a lot of people will be offended by her honesty, but i on the other hand feel so empowered by it. i had an abortion when i was 18 and whenever i tell someone about it they assume it must have been such a traumatic experience from which i'll never be able to recover. but instead i felt such a relief that i was able to avoid the traumatic experience of teen-motherhood. im very happy to see these conversations move away from the "trauma" of choice.
10/01/09
10/01/09
10/02/09
10/01/09
10/01/09