Make parents civilly liable for their children's misconduct. There's no reason to risk abridging the free speech of adults, when parents will not take an active role in keeping their children from being transgressors.
Kids don't know enough about laws for them to be a real deterrent anyway.
My main concern with this law is that I'm afraid it will mostly come into play after a person has already committed suicide or something equally as terrible has happened. Kids so often try to just deal with bullying so they don't get bullied MORE because they told on someone.
I had plenty of encounters of cyberbullying starting from middle school up. It was bad enough IN SCHOOL that I never gave out my AIM name to classmates, but someone got ahold of it and IM'd me, telling me they knew my full name (which only people at my school knew, and then only to mock me for never using it), call me a cunt, tell my my address and what room I was in, and tell me they were going to kill me.
I didn't tell my grandparents who I lived with at the time about it, because I knew they'd just discount it, like they discounted all of the bullying at school. Even the TEACHERS got in on it, it was that bad.
@victoriasauce: The big gossip at our school was one of the Assistant PRINCIPALS. I think she might have written notes on me in my records, because after her, no AP I had ever treated me well and my highschool AP even tried to prevent me from graduating early after the (nice) principal left.
is anyone else a little peeved that the typical solution to address an offense is to pass a law prohibiting it?
don't get me wrong. cyberbullying, and any type of bullying for that matter, is wrong. but i think we too often take a reactionary approach by passing a law to punish someone after the fact, instead of being more proactive and trying to change the culture that allows this to happen in the first place.
laws like this seem like an excuse for elected officials to wipe their hand of the issue and say, "there. we did something. moving on." and then the issue is forgotten.
On the subject of bullying, my kids and I had an encounter with it this morning.
I walk to the bus stop with my 4 year old sons and 6 your old daughter every morning. There's always a group of kids, I'm guessing ages 5-9, across the street, waiting with their mom. Today, she wasn't there.
From the moment we arrived, they were taunting my kids. Screaming across the street, mocking anything they overheard my children saying, etc. My daughter was clearly bothered and clinched my arm. My sons were pretty oblivious to it. I was *this* close to warning them. (Stop or I'm telling your mother, etc) Right then, she arrived and they stopped. I didn't say anything.
The situation left me really uncomfortable. What should I do if it happens again? Inform their mom? The school? One of the kids is in my daughter's class and she previously said he's mean to her.
@victoriasauce: You really need to discuss it with the mother. Obviously, if they stop when she is there, it is not a behavior that she tolerates.
My husband and I have been discussing bullying a lot lately, and how we dealt with it. My father always counseled me to punch them. Get the first hit in, do it in a public place where it is likely to be broken up quickly, and be loud about it. That approach garnered me a trip to the police station, but I was never picked on again. I don't know how I am going to counsel my child.
@Vivelafat says Sweep the leg, Johnny.: God, its hard. In regards to the situation I spoke about in another post, my first instinct is to tell my daughter to fight back because you're right -- bullies don't continue to pick on people who fight back. But you can't really advise a middle schooler to hit her schoolmate in retaliation for being called a bitch. Its one thing to fight back when you're being attacked, its another thing to escalate it to physicality when its name calling.
And cause this is a situation between girls, its always going to be name calling and insults and the like (for the most part). So difficult. We're practicing her 'oh go fuck yourself' death stare right now.
@SlayBelle: I can imagine it would be very difficult, because while I know it was the absolute right thing for me to do, I think it must be hard to council violence.
The thing is, once it gets to the point of physicallity, it's gone too far in my opinion. Better for your daughter to control when, where and how it goes down.
@SarahMC: I think it's because I'm "just a girl". They were mainly teasing my daughter too. Would they act like that if her father were there instead of me? I don't think so.
I'm happy that they are trying to do something. However, I think that the new law may be limited in its utility. My concern about this legislation is its enforceability when the perpetrator is another teenager. The Meier case is unusual, most of the harassers in these kinds of cases are other teenagers. So what then?
@Haystacks: But will they be tried as juveniles or adults? How will the sentences mentioned in the text of the law be applied to those who are tried as juveniles?
To my knowledge a lot of the law regarding how juvenile cases are handled in general is case law that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from judge to judge. Prosecutorial discretion also plays a role in how teens are tried and what options regarding rehabilitation/restitution are offered.
Adding to this is the fact that many juvenile records are eventually sealed, which is generally a good thing, but makes it harder for people outside the legal system to understand how these types of cases work.
So although the law can be applied to teens, there are a lot of questions about how it would be applied that haven't been answered.
@lurker2209: That was my point, apparently badly expressed. Despite years of school shootings and the fact that most people realize that bullying sucks, there is little motivation at the school level to do anything about peer-level bullying. It's seen as a necessary evil that we all go through and dismissed. Even as videos of kids beating the crap out of each other surface on You Tube and "slut lists" of lower classmen are distributed with impunity. The Meier case got press because an adult (? for the sake of argument) spearheaded the bullying. I worry that there is not enough concern for peer-level bullying to see the kind of enforcement that is needed for most of the cases to be dealt with.
I feel very conflicted about the idea of actually legislating cyberbullying.
Current life going-ons: MiniBelle and her BFF are having an issue with another girl in their grade. AnotherGirl has been insulting them, teasing, calling them names, and in the case of the BFF, sending nasty textmessages to the BFF. Last week, AnotherGirl called them 'bitches' at lunch. When the BFF went to the school guidance counseler about what's been going on, the counseler told her to call the cops.
Let me be perfectly clear: there were no threats of violence. The girls are all 12. The counseler's first reaction was 'call the cops' instead of 'address this with AnotherGirl and her parents'. This sits so badly with me. To me, this is a place where the schools and parents need to intervene and deal with the issue. Its not a legal matter, and given the zero-tolerance policies in many schools these days, it concerns me that instead of addressing the underlying issues that set off this bullying, its just straight to punishment.
As a child, I was harassed so badly I was withdrawn from elementary school and placed in another campus. I was offered no help from my school despite them knowing what was going on and numerous conferences with the principal and classroom teachers. Sometimes, I still have mild fantasies about popping this girl in her face, and I'm 34. But I still don't think it was criminal. Reprehensible? Yeah. But not criminal.
Again, I'm conflicted. I completely think that what Lori Drew did needs to be punishible by law. But the average school yard bully situation? I don't know.
@SlayBelle: Sorry for your kid, bullies in school can be absolutely devastating.
However, this is one of the many problems with our country. A kid cannot resolve a situation in a peaceful manner, so they go to an administrator or a counselor for advice/help/resolution. Instead, they are told to call the cops? How about a little bit of responsibility on the part of the counselor/admin?
Back when I was a small kiddicus, we punched bullies in the face. Then got punched in the face, wrestled around for a bit until someone got the upper hand, it got broken up and you were (usually) left alone... for some other kid who wouldn't punch dudeman in the face.
Violence isn't the answer, but if this little brat is giving your kid a bunch of grief, nothing shuts an 8 year old up like another 8 year old's fist.
@kiddicus: I know a lot of people disagree with this approach, and as I don't have children I can't say what is best for them, BUT I was bullied a lot in middle school. My father only listened to so much of my complaints and then told me, "If you don't like it, do something about it." He counseled me to get the first hit, do it in school where it is likely to be broken up quickly and make a lot of noise. When I did it was on the school bus and it earned me a trip to the police station (and the ice cream parlor when my father picked me up), but I was never picked on again. In fact, people would start to pick on me and then their friend would stop them and say, "You don't want to do that." The thing is, it wasn't a brutal fight, kids that age don't really know how to fight yet. But throwing the first punch was enough to show other kids that there were easier targets.
@SarahMC: She's a very nice woman who has been extremely helpful to us on many occasions. The parents of AnotherGirl and the BFF spoke and laid down the law on their girls regarding their ability to talk to each other, so no calls to the cops were made.
Given that the counseler has been pretty level headed on any number of other matters, I can't help but assume her reaction is a product of the ridiculous zero-tolerance policies in affect at the moment in our district.
@kiddicus My advice to my daughter started out with 'please do not punch this girl in the face, no matter how much you may want to, because you will get kicked out of school'. When I was a bit younger than her, I nailed some guys in the nads on the playground after they were harassing me. They never harassed me again, which was very satisfying, but when I think about this incident as an adult, I can't imagine the kind of trouble I would get into if I did that today (er, as a child, not as an adult running around kicking small boys in the crotch).
@SlayBelle: 0 tolerance policies are the worst thing to happen to schools. They are so insane. And senseless.
And I think a large part of the problem with bullying today comes from the fact that kid's AREN'T just allowed to punch it out between each other anymore. Obviously that is not always going to work and there's a point at which intervention is necessary, but I think intervening before giving the kids a chance to have it out amongst themselves sometimes just inflates the whole problem
I think these "critics" need to actually read the proposed language of the law. It establishes a pretty high standard that will have be proven to constitute cyberbullying. If you just call some one an asshat, Mr. Asshat's not going to be able to call the cops on you.
@curiousgeorgiana: And repeated. That is such a key word in that statement. It's not like one insult will lock you up. You have to really really be going at it. That roots out a lot of misunderstandings.
I'm sure I'll get shat on for this, as it is blaming the victim, but if someone feels that with facebook there is no end to bullying after high school, why not not be on facebook? At least for a while? Yes, it totally is unfair and you shouldn't have to do that, but that's what I would do.
@greengrey: I totally get that, but if a bully's only way of contacting you is facebook, and you're sick of them bullying you, it seems totally logical to me to just remove yourself from the situation. And yes that sucks and is unfair, but are you actually cutting yourself off from your friends? I would hope if they're your friend, that you could contact them another way. Or maybe, if you have a lot of friends who live far away, make a profile that isn't searchable, and have the name not be your full name. I totally see your point, but if the bullying is making you that upset, why wouldn't you take every precaution to avoid it? Just because of the principle of the issue? I don't really get that.
@judgingnora: If they go to school with the bully, then facebook isn't the only form of contact. Also, VB's post above. Just because I'm not on facebook doesn't mean a bully can't tell other people what a fugly slut I am :P
@greengrey: Oh totally. going to school with the person is a different circumstance. I meant to reference the girl quoted above who said that bullying usually stops once you leave school, but facebook makes it go on forever.
My question about VB's post is does this mean that talking smack about someone online should be a criminal offense? That seems very extreme to me.
@judgingnora: Oh, I wasn't saying it should constitute a criminal offense, as that would be hard to prosecute indeed, (as you pointed out) since that's basically 85% of the internet. Your initial comment, however, did not refer to prosecution of bullying, but just the general act of facebook-bullying, so that was what I was referring to.
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@judgingnora: Good point. But "talking smack" for adults isn't really allowed, is it? I can't start a website defaming that bitch in the next cubicle, yeah?
But yeah, it would be hard to prosecute, and I'm kind of iffy on it. But there should be laws in place to punish people who bully directly online (oxymoron??).
@judgingnora: I don't know.. that all sounds terribly logical but when you're 13 years old the only thing worse than being bullied online is not having an online presence at all. It's the same in real life; at least when I was in school, the only thing worse than being bullied was being completely ignored or out of the loop. That's probably the cruellest part about the Regina George-type girl bullying that many of us experience; it seems when you're that age that walking away altogether would be the worst possible thing, making you a loser as well as a pariah with no chance of ever rising above your current station.
Does that make sense? I know it's crazy, but that's how I felt as a 13 year old girl. I knew if I went to the cool girls' parties I'd be snickered at and bullied, but my god if I got invited I would be there with bloody bells on. Because not going would make me an even bigger loser/
First the ugly dog being kicked and beaten, then the little girl with cancer being almost lit on fire, and now this. What is WRONG with Britain and their little hooligans? They just need to feed them all to lions.
I was comparing crime stats (because that's what I do for fun!) and, although the US has a much higher murder rate, the assault rate in the UK is significantly higher. It's very puzzling.
@squeakel: I believe gun control laws in the U.K. have a lot to do with their low murder rate. (Or, I should say, with the U.S.'s high rate of murder.)
As an individual that just had her nose severely broken by her husband, only to have the gardai/police show up and do nothing as they were "under-staffed", I can attest to the clusterfuck that is the British police/Irish garda. They seem to act as though their job is simply a means to an end not an actual vocation meant to service and protect the people.
Sorry for the block of text and assumptions...I blame the pain meds.
oh damn, that is horrible she should have gone to get help I would have been happy to provide them with some shotgun assistance. Yep that's how I feel about them bullying people who are going through a lot of problems.
Oh, dear God. The abuse that family suffered was horrific-- kids urinated on their house, destroyed their garden, threw stones at their home; the daughter (mental age of 4; physical age 18) was taunted and harassed, at one point being surrounded by kids demanding she pull up her night dress; the brother was held at knife-point and beaten with a metal object. How could even the most callous, hard-bitten policeman dismiss this as no big deal?
@PhillyLass: Also, how much despair and pain must they have been in for the mother to kill her daughter and herself by setting the family car on fire while they were inside it? What a hideous, desperate way to die.
This type of story always gives me nightmares. Uugh! Lately, everywhere I turn there seems to be another story of someone in authority either acting against or indifferent towards those they pretend to serve.
What is wrong with this world? Srsly, I know people say that everyday, but WTF!
10/01/09
Kids don't know enough about laws for them to be a real deterrent anyway.
10/01/09
10/01/09
I didn't tell my grandparents who I lived with at the time about it, because I knew they'd just discount it, like they discounted all of the bullying at school. Even the TEACHERS got in on it, it was that bad.
10/01/09
10/01/09
10/01/09
don't get me wrong. cyberbullying, and any type of bullying for that matter, is wrong. but i think we too often take a reactionary approach by passing a law to punish someone after the fact, instead of being more proactive and trying to change the culture that allows this to happen in the first place.
laws like this seem like an excuse for elected officials to wipe their hand of the issue and say, "there. we did something. moving on." and then the issue is forgotten.
10/01/09
I walk to the bus stop with my 4 year old sons and 6 your old daughter every morning. There's always a group of kids, I'm guessing ages 5-9, across the street, waiting with their mom. Today, she wasn't there.
From the moment we arrived, they were taunting my kids. Screaming across the street, mocking anything they overheard my children saying, etc. My daughter was clearly bothered and clinched my arm. My sons were pretty oblivious to it. I was *this* close to warning them. (Stop or I'm telling your mother, etc) Right then, she arrived and they stopped. I didn't say anything.
The situation left me really uncomfortable. What should I do if it happens again? Inform their mom? The school? One of the kids is in my daughter's class and she previously said he's mean to her.
10/01/09
My husband and I have been discussing bullying a lot lately, and how we dealt with it. My father always counseled me to punch them. Get the first hit in, do it in a public place where it is likely to be broken up quickly, and be loud about it. That approach garnered me a trip to the police station, but I was never picked on again. I don't know how I am going to counsel my child.
10/01/09
And cause this is a situation between girls, its always going to be name calling and insults and the like (for the most part). So difficult. We're practicing her 'oh go fuck yourself' death stare right now.
10/01/09
10/01/09
The thing is, once it gets to the point of physicallity, it's gone too far in my opinion. Better for your daughter to control when, where and how it goes down.
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To my knowledge a lot of the law regarding how juvenile cases are handled in general is case law that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and from judge to judge. Prosecutorial discretion also plays a role in how teens are tried and what options regarding rehabilitation/restitution are offered.
Adding to this is the fact that many juvenile records are eventually sealed, which is generally a good thing, but makes it harder for people outside the legal system to understand how these types of cases work.
So although the law can be applied to teens, there are a lot of questions about how it would be applied that haven't been answered.
10/01/09
@haystacks: Thanks, Captain Obvious.
10/01/09
Current life going-ons: MiniBelle and her BFF are having an issue with another girl in their grade. AnotherGirl has been insulting them, teasing, calling them names, and in the case of the BFF, sending nasty textmessages to the BFF. Last week, AnotherGirl called them 'bitches' at lunch. When the BFF went to the school guidance counseler about what's been going on, the counseler told her to call the cops.
Let me be perfectly clear: there were no threats of violence. The girls are all 12. The counseler's first reaction was 'call the cops' instead of 'address this with AnotherGirl and her parents'. This sits so badly with me. To me, this is a place where the schools and parents need to intervene and deal with the issue. Its not a legal matter, and given the zero-tolerance policies in many schools these days, it concerns me that instead of addressing the underlying issues that set off this bullying, its just straight to punishment.
As a child, I was harassed so badly I was withdrawn from elementary school and placed in another campus. I was offered no help from my school despite them knowing what was going on and numerous conferences with the principal and classroom teachers. Sometimes, I still have mild fantasies about popping this girl in her face, and I'm 34. But I still don't think it was criminal. Reprehensible? Yeah. But not criminal.
Again, I'm conflicted. I completely think that what Lori Drew did needs to be punishible by law. But the average school yard bully situation? I don't know.
10/01/09
However, this is one of the many problems with our country. A kid cannot resolve a situation in a peaceful manner, so they go to an administrator or a counselor for advice/help/resolution. Instead, they are told to call the cops? How about a little bit of responsibility on the part of the counselor/admin?
Back when I was a small kiddicus, we punched bullies in the face. Then got punched in the face, wrestled around for a bit until someone got the upper hand, it got broken up and you were (usually) left alone... for some other kid who wouldn't punch dudeman in the face.
Violence isn't the answer, but if this little brat is giving your kid a bunch of grief, nothing shuts an 8 year old up like another 8 year old's fist.
10/01/09
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10/01/09
Given that the counseler has been pretty level headed on any number of other matters, I can't help but assume her reaction is a product of the ridiculous zero-tolerance policies in affect at the moment in our district.
@kiddicus My advice to my daughter started out with 'please do not punch this girl in the face, no matter how much you may want to, because you will get kicked out of school'. When I was a bit younger than her, I nailed some guys in the nads on the playground after they were harassing me. They never harassed me again, which was very satisfying, but when I think about this incident as an adult, I can't imagine the kind of trouble I would get into if I did that today (er, as a child, not as an adult running around kicking small boys in the crotch).
10/01/09
And I think a large part of the problem with bullying today comes from the fact that kid's AREN'T just allowed to punch it out between each other anymore. Obviously that is not always going to work and there's a point at which intervention is necessary, but I think intervening before giving the kids a chance to have it out amongst themselves sometimes just inflates the whole problem
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10/01/09
My question about VB's post is does this mean that talking smack about someone online should be a criminal offense? That seems very extreme to me.
10/01/09
10/01/09
But yeah, it would be hard to prosecute, and I'm kind of iffy on it. But there should be laws in place to punish people who bully directly online (oxymoron??).
10/01/09
Does that make sense? I know it's crazy, but that's how I felt as a 13 year old girl. I knew if I went to the cool girls' parties I'd be snickered at and bullied, but my god if I got invited I would be there with bloody bells on. Because not going would make me an even bigger loser/
10/01/09
No. But they can make people face consequences for their actions. Laws don't 100% stop anything.
10/01/09
09/30/09
09/30/09
I was comparing crime stats (because that's what I do for fun!) and, although the US has a much higher murder rate, the assault rate in the UK is significantly higher. It's very puzzling.
09/30/09
09/29/09
Sorry for the block of text and assumptions...I blame the pain meds.
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09/29/09
What is wrong with this world? Srsly, I know people say that everyday, but WTF!