Also, long skirts and oversized dresses don't completely eliminate your individuality. They don't make it so that no one can even see who you are. They don't make you into a silent ghost. Not the same. Not the same at all.

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I'm not a fan of the Burqa or male dominated religions (all of them) but it's stepping a little over the line for Sarkozy to tell the citizens of his country what they should and should not wear. And Sarkozy's rules seem to target the Muslim community and no one else. I don't remember hearing Sarkozy speak so loudly and publicly about orthodox Jewish women not being allowed to wear wigs in public. Do you?

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A quote from the article: "How could you," I was inclined to say, "join a religion that has such a track record of oppressing women?"

What about Catholicism? What about Hinduism? Haven't all religions been somewhat oppressive of women? If you're going to cite an article, try not to pick one that has such a glaring bias against Islam. I have been blessed to meet and make friends with members of the Muslim community and they are lovely, tolerant, kind people. The girls I know are in no way "oppressed".

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"Islam may not be essentially incompatible with feminism. Muhammad's first wife, Khadijah, was an independent businesswoman, who hired the prophet on her own account, and arranged to marry him because she liked his looks, and because he had carried out her business transactions well.

"There is no reason why she should not be the model for all Muslim women. There is nothing in the Koran about veils. But Islam as it is generally practised is not compatible with women's equality.

"Perhaps this is because Islam seems not to have produced an indigenous movement for women's spiritual equality to compare with the campaign waged by Christian women."

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Acknowledging that western women are culturally manipulated into some form of sexualisation isn't exclusive to acknowledging the same about Islam, if that's what you believe. Critiquing Islam in the context of a personal experience you've had with it (in this case, the writer's sister's conversion) does NOT have to be done in conjunction with criticising Catholicism or Hinduism or other religions oppressive to women. Within all those religious folds, there will be many, many people who are modest, kind and giving - it doesn't make the political structures of those religions any more excusable or appealing.

The least problematic thing about Karen Green's article is not that she's essentially wrong about everything she's positing, it's that she's so remarkably one dimensional about it. For a lecturer in feminism, I'm amazed that she's attempted to juxtapose the willingness of Muslim women to achieve equality with the supposed eagerness of Christian women. To suggest that women veil out of some sense of vanity seems like nothing more than a spurious and not even particularly well thought out theory.

Having said all that, I agree with Sarkozy's statement in the post. Burquas may be chosen by some Muslim women exercising their own free will, but as a culturally recognised symbol they exist as one of 'subjugation and submission'. The fact remains that in parts of the Middle East, there are women who are forced to wear them. Even though they existed long before the Taliban, the use of them as a weapon of control underneath that regime made them a symbol of oppression. The swastika (backwards) was a Buddhist symbol, but it's now become a symbol of Nazism. Defending its history prior to Hitler won't change that association in people's minds, and I think the same is true for the international community's perception of the burka.

I am personally comfortable with expressing my belief that shrouding oneself from head to foot and leaving only a gauzed slit to see out of is abhorrent to me. In my opinion, it's not the way to address the sexualisation of women in society. Women who choose to veil in this way may see it as a path to respect, because they're removing the physical from people's interactions with them. I'm not going to argue with them on whether or not this is effective or works for them, because it's their experience and not mine. But essentially, I don't feel it's just or effective in the long term.

So I really don't see that it's fair to criticise Sarkozy for basically demonstrating that he would like the women of France to be accepted as equals, given that he (like myself and many others) think that the ritualistic covering of only women's faces acts as a huge barrier to this.

Sidebar: I highly recommend the award winning journalist Geraldine Brooks' "Nine Parts of Desire" for a history on veiling in the Middle East.

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I think it is ESPECIALLY problematic to criticize such things as an outsider in a position of power. I think it's frankly patronizing for a member of the white male elite to make any assumptions that Islamic women -- in any way -- need to be somehow "saved" by our presumably superior Western laws and customs.

I am not saying that we have to criticize Islam in conjunction with anything, and yes, it is a given ON JEZEBEL that we are shackled by the internalization of various sexist practices. That said, this is NOT a given in mainstream society. How often do French politicians stand up and question the oppressive practices of the beauty industry? Has anyone stood up and banned wearing make-up? How about wearing cross necklaces, because of the patriarchal policies of the Catholic church? No, but France HAS banned headscarves.

I am not saying that burquas or hijabs or headscarves are or are not oppressive, because as a non-Muslim Western woman, it's not really my place to dictate that. They might very well be, and it is indeed important to question these traditions, as it is to question our own. I'm just saying a person in a position of power questioning one without acknowledging the other -- and presuming that "we" are in any way fit or capable to fix the perceived societal problems of another (marginalized) group -- is a Eurocentric, imperialist mentality and it's incredibly offensive.

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There should be a "possibly" in my first sentence -- "possibly problematic and sexist." I think they definitely COULD be; I just think it's not OUR place to say, as I articulated better in my second "contradictory" comment.

I totally see your point about just stepping off. It's a tough call. I guess my main beef is that there are better ways to show support for women's freedom and choices than by... taking away their choices!! Not to mention making a relatively reductionist argument in a public forum that denounces a cultural tradition of an already maligned group of people.

If this was the representative of a group of French Muslim women speaking on behalf of French Muslim women, I'd be like, rock on ladies. Do what you need to do. I'm pretty open to similar arguments made by people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali. But I get all prickly and angry inside when some powerful white dude tries to tell a marginalized group what to do, and implies that "our" ways are in some way superior while failing to acknowledge our own societal failures. That reeks of condescension to me.

Anyway, as always with Jezebel, this has become left-leaning people arguing over pretty similar left-leaning opinions. Can we agree to disagree?

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@audreyapple: No worries! Again, you also make some very good points. I will totally check out the book; I certainly agree that an "outsider" can be tremendously informed and can make some very valid insights. For instance, I really enjoyed Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven, and he is by no means a member of the FLDS. So, this book sounds like it's very much worth the read. Thanks for the recco!

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Furthermore, Burkas are not worn only in the middle east. they are worn all over the world by muslim women, including in Africa.

Also, there is, in fact, a prescribed dress code for men which many men do, in fact, follow. A skull cap, much like a yamluke, which is to be worn at certain times of the day, for example. Again, please read up on the topic and I'm sure you'll come across further specifics as to what is prescribed for the men.

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Exactly, this is key.

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And the whole faith aspect of it.

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But that's a very different thing from women in more egalitarian countries, like France, choosing to wear it.

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I've heard of women saying that when wearing a burkah men treat them on more equal footing than they would a woman not wearing one. But I've also heard stories of men who go crazy at the sight of an exposed wrist or ankle went women are at the market.

What it comes down to is that in theory (from my understanding of texts I've read), the burkah is supposed to be a symbol of women's equality in Islam. It's a sign that a woman respects herself because she isn't exposing herself or using her body/sexuality to further her self or her interests.

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I don't agree with the sentiment that I've noticed about it being a woman's responcibility to be modest/not sexy in order for men to respect them/treat them like equals. It makes it seem like men are just crazy-horn-dogs that can't control themselves unless a woman is covered head to toe... but then again, so much of the religion (due to cultural influences) lets the boys get away with murder (figuratively and literally.)

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I think many young women who wear the burqa are doing so under family/societal pressure. Yes, under French law, they may wear whatever they want, but I doubt many of their parents go along with that. I think this will be freeing for many young Muslim women in France.

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@LaFemme: I would offer the examples of both Pakistan and Jordan, where wearing none (abaya,hijab,burka, etc) is law or enforced in ANY way, but millions of women choose to do so anyway. In both countries, women are seen wearing sleevless shirts, tank tops, capri pants, low cut shirts, with their hair uncovered etc in markets/streets/restaurants. In fact a majority of women in both countries DONT follow Islamic dress as you have described it. Yes, as I said, millions of women choose to follow it, to varying degrees ranging from just the hijab to a bukra with a slit for their eyes, anyway.

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Furthermore, I disagree with your understand of pre-taliban Afghanistan, as most historical texts dealing with the spread of religiosity in the region are quite clear about the fact that religiosity and religious functions have changed very little in villages,rural areas etc, since the talibanization of the country. My point is, women were wearing burkas in Afghanisation for generations before the Taliban were given that name.

Also, I certainly do not consider myself a 'burka apologist', as you call it. I think it is a persons right to choose how they express their religion - Asking a woman to remove her burka is, in my opinion, akin to asking a sikh man to remove his turban.

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So how do you think women who obey the law (i.e. don't wear burqas) will be treated by those in the community who think they should be mandatory? I predict it's women who will be punished one way or another. That's not burqa apologism; it's thinking a few steps ahead and asking how this would play out.

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The emphasis on secularism & the social pressure for immigrants to adopt Western norms regarding women's dress, education, sexuality, etc. was denounced as colonialist & xenophobic by many members of my community, but in my heart of hearts I have to admit I appreciated it & felt it gave me space & safety in which to move without having to battle with my co-ethnics - it was like a barrier protecting me from what I felt were the worst aspects of my own culture.

This comment only represents my opinion not those of all girls who were in my situation blah blah blah

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So how does one know if my wearing heels is my own choice or something I do because my husband demands it? I'm not saying the burqa isn't a complex garment seeped in sexism, however, to imply that THIS garment ALONE must always be a symbol of that sexism whereas one does not do this with any Western garment* it ethnocentric and just as paternalistic as forcing someone TO wear it.

*What about the super-conservative dress of Orthodox Jewish or Fundamentalist Christian women?

@SarahMC: I'm doing this!: Excellent point.

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"France has the largest Muslim population in Western Europe, estimated at five million, and the wearing of traditional Islamic garments has been a divisive issue, especially since 2004, when the country passed legislation prohibiting head scarves and conspicuous religious symbols from public schools.

Mr. Sarkozy noted that "in the republic, the Muslim religion must be respected like other religions." But he declared that "the burqa is not welcome in France."

"We cannot accept in our country women imprisoned behind bars, cut off from social life, deprived of identity," he said. "That is not our idea of maintaining the dignity of women."

Mohammed Moussaoui, the president of France's Representative Muslim Council, said he agreed with Mr. Sarkozy's position on burqas, calling them "an extremely marginal phenomenon." He said his group promoted a moderate practice of Islam."

So, this begs the question, since even headscarves have been banned in public schools for 5 years, does anyone know whether any girls have been attacked for not wearing them?

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High heels have no religious grounding. No one is forced to wear them by their government, like many Middle Eastern women are with burqas. If one man makes one woman wear high heels, that's unreasonable. If an entire culture makes every women wear a garment that renders her unrecognizable to anyone else, that's rampant sexism.

Also, you mention the super-conservative way other religious women dress - but you can still see their faces. They're dressing very, very modestly - they aren't covering up every inch so their super-sexy wrists or hair don't force a group of men to rape them. It is very different.

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Exactly. The thing about Islam is that it is a relativistic religion, in many ways. The hadith, which many people follow, contains conflicting guidance on such things like dress. It also conflicts on plenty of other things like slavery, drinking, and war, but that's neither here nor there (but a lot like Christianity).

Burkas have been around forever and a minute. In my own country, people mainly wore them at funerals, but men wore something quite similar. The manner in which different groups applied and decided to use this dress varies. But it's not new.

I have to agree that if a woman in France chooses to wear a burka or a hijab or whatever, it is her choice and she should be respected. And while I get the concerns people have about familial pressures, these issues exists in all contexts. The Hasisic Jewish culture as well as the Amish culture come to mind. I do think that people who choose to follow Islam, and his or her terms, are indeed often judged as lacking agency or free will, which in the case of many in the U.S. or Europe, is a falsity.

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"Mohammed Moussaoui, the president of France's Representative Muslim Council, said he agreed with Mr. Sarkozy's position on burqas, calling them "an extremely marginal phenomenon." He said his group promoted a moderate practice of Islam.

"When we meet women who wear it, we try to educate them, and explain to them that moderation is a better choice," he said.

The council, however, has spoken out against the need to conduct a study on the burqa, saying that it risked stigmatizing Islam and Muslims in France.

"We'd rather not have a commission on the subject," Mr. Moussaoui said. "But if it was created, we will stay vigilant that French Muslims are not stigmatized, that the president's words are respected."

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Oh, and all that colonial bullshit Moussaoui is spewing about "We know better than everyone else, so we try to teach them that but the poor souls won't listen." is stomach-turning, frankly. I can only hope he is truly working in the best interest of French Muslims.

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And conservative women of other religions cover themselves to show modesty toward God, not because the men say "Oh, we'd go bat-shit sex-crazy if we saw your ankle." And conservative men, at least in Orthodox Judaism, have very strict rules concerning what they wear as well. I'm not saying they're great in terms of how these rules imply sexism, but it's certainly not at ALL to the same extent as the burqa for Muslim women.

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Turn the tv onto a pakistani channel (or online, really), or go onto a Pakistani magazine website, you'll see that pakistani men (and women) often dress very much like we do. Jeans, t shirts, etc.

Although I do agree, very many women do, also, wear the burka. Which was my initial point, the dichotomy.

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Yeah, I know what you mean and it's a valid point. But there is also a valid argument for the reverse: that Western whites championing burqas smacks just as much of colonialism - as in, 'Let 'em choose for themselves; it's nothing to do with us; we can't say because we don't know what it's like to be them, because they are so different from us.'