I don't understand what's wrong with having universal health care? Like why are people so against it?
In Australia, we don't have a perfect healthcare system, but we have public access that means people can be treated for things like cancer through the public system... we all pay extra for it on our tax but it's for the greater good of our population.
@coconanas: Short answer: Americans are stupid. Longer answer: Americans are reflectively anti-tax and have a limited conception of the idea of "liberty". The moneyed interests (Republican party) exploits these knee-jerk responses by coming up with inane slogans and "death panel" memes so that they can keep their money safe. This is the same party that hates the idea of public education, which is why so many people lack the critical thinking necessary to call out this bullshit when they see it. It's demagoguery, plain and simple.
The idea that people really, truly believe that the government is going to institute "death panels" boggles my brain. The idea that they believe that they are somehow being "patriotic" by opposing what appears to be an extremely incremental change in the vomitorium that is private health insurance makes me want to throw things. There is no longer any nuance in public debate anymore, just name-calling, and as someone who's education and work experience has involved more critical analysis and grassroots action than most of these neatherthals have ever done pisses me off. And yet *we're* the ones who are anti-American (what the fuck does that even mean?). You really care about your country? Fucking learn something about it, learn its history, strive to make it live up to its ideals. Don't throw around "death squads" and "terrorists" and "socialists" (which I guarantee the vast majority couldn't define properly when pressed).
Jon Stewart was right when he told the right wing that they were hurting America.
I'm glad there are some people in America who are satisfied with the current state of health care. I respectfully request they either voluntarily decide to learn what it's like for the rest of us, or get the hell out of the way.
This is intensely personal for me. I recently lost a friend who would probably still be alive if he'd had access to preventive care. But his employer didn't offer insurance, and between his minor pre-existing condition and his mother's heart problems, private insurance was out of financial reach. If he'd had a regular doctor, they'd have known to keep an eye on his heart. Since he didn't, we didn't find out until the autopsy that he probably needed a bypass. He was 38. (And don't tell me that he could have gone to any emergency room for care: They're all full of other people trying to get non-emergency stuff checked out, and he couldn't have afforded to take days off of work to wait.)
I wish I had the means to fly his mother around to the town hall meetings where people are railing against health care reform. They need to meet her.
Many of these people shout, "I'm not stupid!" after they've just spewed out something incredibly stupid. What they mean by that is, "I'm not going to believe anyone but me has any human feeling or emotion or worthiness let alone good motives, and if you try to tell me the fairy tale end-of-times 666 tattoo socialist antichrist conspiracy theory delusional rantings that I fall back on whenever the government does *anything* I do not like is not wholly and entirely true, then I am going to scream at you like a three-year-old denied chocolate in the grocery store."
This whole thing makes me so angry I don't think I can continue to read about it at work because it makes me feel like screaming. I'm so upset there are tears in my eyes right now.
This isn't abortion, this isn't gay marriage, this is HEALTH CARE. It shouldn't be this controversial. It's like asking if everyone has the right to access to clean water. It's so fucking basic, how can you oppose it?!
All these people. Could not look someone in the eyes and tell them they do not deserve to, at the very least, have the pain of dying eased just because they do not make enough money to pay for it. This has nothing to do with freedom! That's such a fucking buzzword I wonder if the people screaming about it actually know what it means. We are nowhere near being a socialist country (which if you actually knew anything about socialism, you'd know) so SHUT THE FUCK UP.
That story about the boy and the toothache. Heartbreaking on so many levels. And it makes it tragically obvious how connected dental health is to overall health.
Now in my understanding (which admittedly isn't great) none of the various forms of health care legislation out there include dental. And very, very few employers offer dental insurance.
In the end, the taxpayers paid for brain surgery when regular cleanings- cheap by comparison- would have prevented the need for it. And in the end, the boy died anyway.
Yet dental coverage still isn't considered a necessity.
@drinkyrose: I am not sure why dental isn't covered even now under private care. I buy a dental program (as well as a vision program), but it is an add-on to my (astronomically high) medical coverage, as is mental health coverage. Yet dental problems and vision problems and, yes, mental health problems, ARE health problems. If you have glaucoma, that is a health problem! If you have an abscessed tooth or open nerve, you are walking around with a bacterial infection which can kill you. I don't know when in our history we came to the conclusion that adequate dental, vision and mental health are not part of the standard package.
Oh, and: I HAVE insurance, but I couldn't afford to call an ambulance when my shoulder got so f'd up I couldn't move my right arm at all, and no one was available to drive me, so I drove myself to urgent care (costs half as much as ER). With one working arm. Let me recap: Even with "good" health insurance, I had to do something painful, difficult, and dangerous to get care. I'm just lucky I live in a small town and it didn't take long to get there. And it turned out that it wasn't anything life-threatening, thank God.
@pesematology: I've had insurance for years, through various jobs, and through my wife's various employers, and still I can't make myself go to the doctor, because there is no stability anymore. I don't have one doctor, to take care of all my general needs. Every time I change insurance, I end up having to change doctors, and having to fill out the same forms over and over, stating my medical history. Heck, if they could just come up with a system for creating a centralized and secure health database, that allowed me and my physician to access it anywhere, that alone would save millions.
You know, there are so many things about this debate that make my blood boil. But presently, I'm most angry at media outlets for granting people (like the screamer above) a platform from upon which they may deliver their hysterical ranting and thus, their lunacy is granted an air of legitimacy. Yes, I understand very well the principle of free speech, but in my mind there is a clear difference between presenting dissenting viewpoints and allowing complete wingnuts to spread their ill-informed beliefs on a national stage. At some point, it becomes irresponsible journalism and stunts the public debate. I know it's futile, but I wish that there was at least one news channel that would treat its viewership like intelligent beings and not idiots who are willing to swallow any piece of outrageous, shock journalism.
@Tchotchke: Yeah, this shit reminds me of a first amendment/media theory jurisprudence class I took in law school; basically the prof was arguing that the main impetus behind the 1st amendment to promote rational discourse was gone in favor of yell-y, emotional forms of self-expression. At first I was like "yeah whatever" but reading about these crazy-ass health care loons makes me agree with prof's assessment.
I want my country back too. But I think of something else when I think that:
"Dmitry Sklyarov is a Russian programmer who gave a talk at a hacker con in Vegas on the failings in Adobe's e-book locks. The FBI threw him in the slam for 30 days. He copped a plea, went home to Russia, and the Russian equivalent of the State Department issued a blanket warning to its researchers to stay away from American conferences, since we'd apparently turned into the kind of country where certain equations are illegal." (Cory Doctorow)
*standing ovation*
Do any of these people know what it's like to be uninsured and terrified to get sick or injured? Do they know what it's like to spend years paying off ER bills? Or having chronically ill parents who can't afford regular doctor visits or prescriptions? Do they know what it's like to have insurance and still not be able to afford to get sick? Don't even get me started on dental care.
I could give you quite a list of the aches and pains and sprains I've walked off.
So that video was right here in good ole Arkansas where the state motto is "at least there's Mississippi," meaning at least we don't place last in education, poverty rate, etc. The video came from a town hall meeting at Arkansas Children's Hospital last Tuesday. ACH is one of the top-rated children's hospitals nationally. It is also a teaching hospital that relies heavily on donations to pay for patient care because most of the patients are uninsured or underinsured, and they do not turn them away. What isn't covered by donations is covered by our tax dollars. Oh, the irony, it kills...Arkansas also has one of the best children's insurance programs that covers even middle class families and most doctors and dentists will accept it. Want to know why Huckabee won't be elected in a national Rep. primary? Not because he's a Baptist minister, but because he was a huge proponent of the insurance program and vital in getting it through our state. I've already mentioned this in another thread, but my liberal socialist friend and I are attending another town hall meeting next Tues. at the Clinton School. Back to the video clip - one of the men that this woman is yelling at is Rep. Mike Ross, leader of the Blue-dogs that held up reform through August recess. I try to stay clustered in my small liberal circle, but you can't escape this line of thinking in this bluest of blue states. This has nothing to do with health care and taxes. The median income in Ark. is so low that most of these people have never even paid taxes. It has everything to do with racism, and it is devastating because there are things that I love about my state, but the ignorance is too much to bear.
@BuyMoreMakeup: I'm not from Arkansas originally, so thank you for this. I don't know why some people are so willfully ignorant, here or anywhere else. Once I had a guy proudly tell me he wouldn't vote for Obama because he didn't want a (racial slur) in the White House. I just stared. I don't know that all these peopl going crazy now are racists, but it defies all logic to believe there isn't some racial component here.
I wish people would look at Massachusetts as an example of how universal health care could work. It's not simply a handout by the government that everybody else pays for (a la socialistic fear mongering), nor is it healthcare doled out by the government, but it was a negotiation between the government and insurance companies where they reached an agreement of a sliding payment scale (based on income) with a minimum (and quite nice) standard of care.
By making it a win-win, where the insurance companies do make more money by having everybody insured, even at a lower price point, and the government steps in to regulate business practices, everybody received something in the transaction. To boot, we're all still capitalists here.
This means my mom, living off of social security, now has the identical health insurance I do from my employer, but for less than half the cost. When she got viral pneumonia, she was able to be treated in a hopsital with top level care (and not pick from a menu that included cough syrup and a reassuring smile, while somebody else got to pick IV anti-virals and fluids).
Thank you home state, for saving my mom's life.
Just like the economy, I wish the government would step in and actually regulate some things as greed knows no bounds when driven by potential profit.
Yesterday, a woman was in court because her 6 year old daughter had gotten 2nd degree burns over 20% of her body. Rather than taking her to the hospital, they tried to take care of her at home. They changed her bandages, tried different creams and gave her children's Tylenol. After three days, someone called the cops, the child was taken to the hospital and the parents were arrested for child neglect.
Looking at the woman, she didn't seem like a bad mother, didn't seem to do this because she's cruel. I'm not condoning her behavior in any way; her behavior towards her daughter is wholly unacceptable and the police report is one of the worst I've read in a while. But I can't help wonder if there are larger societal implications. If she had had access to free health care, would things have been different? Does it even matter?
The little girl got out of the hospital yesterday after more than a week. I hope she's ok.
@eadubbs: These are the kind of real decisions people are forced into every day. What the opponents of health care don't seem to realize is that they can shout all they like, but the Emperor has no clothes. People are now dying every day, in a country with some of the best medical care available, because they have no affordable access to it.
As a Canadian, I don't understand this. It is my privilege to pay my taxes since I know that, because I pay them, everyone has the same access to medical care that I do. Universal health care is one of the issues closest to my heart.
I mean, I'm about to become a mom. How could I live with myself if I knew that a poor mother somewhere, much like me but with less money, couldn't afford to take her sick kid to the doctor because I wanted to pay lower taxes?
@littlemisslondon: Sadly, in the US there is (as with so many things, for example, a housei n the suburbs) an aura of moral deservingness attached to health care--that you get it because you work hard and are decent. The idea that other people who don't have health care work hard and are decent doesn't seem to enter into it.
Life, for some people, is only for the moral. Oh, and the middle/upper-middle class. (Who are moral.)
08/12/09
In Australia, we don't have a perfect healthcare system, but we have public access that means people can be treated for things like cancer through the public system... we all pay extra for it on our tax but it's for the greater good of our population.
08/12/09
The idea that people really, truly believe that the government is going to institute "death panels" boggles my brain. The idea that they believe that they are somehow being "patriotic" by opposing what appears to be an extremely incremental change in the vomitorium that is private health insurance makes me want to throw things. There is no longer any nuance in public debate anymore, just name-calling, and as someone who's education and work experience has involved more critical analysis and grassroots action than most of these neatherthals have ever done pisses me off. And yet *we're* the ones who are anti-American (what the fuck does that even mean?). You really care about your country? Fucking learn something about it, learn its history, strive to make it live up to its ideals. Don't throw around "death squads" and "terrorists" and "socialists" (which I guarantee the vast majority couldn't define properly when pressed).
Jon Stewart was right when he told the right wing that they were hurting America.
08/12/09
This is intensely personal for me. I recently lost a friend who would probably still be alive if he'd had access to preventive care. But his employer didn't offer insurance, and between his minor pre-existing condition and his mother's heart problems, private insurance was out of financial reach. If he'd had a regular doctor, they'd have known to keep an eye on his heart. Since he didn't, we didn't find out until the autopsy that he probably needed a bypass. He was 38. (And don't tell me that he could have gone to any emergency room for care: They're all full of other people trying to get non-emergency stuff checked out, and he couldn't have afforded to take days off of work to wait.)
I wish I had the means to fly his mother around to the town hall meetings where people are railing against health care reform. They need to meet her.
08/12/09
08/12/09
This isn't abortion, this isn't gay marriage, this is HEALTH CARE. It shouldn't be this controversial. It's like asking if everyone has the right to access to clean water. It's so fucking basic, how can you oppose it?!
All these people. Could not look someone in the eyes and tell them they do not deserve to, at the very least, have the pain of dying eased just because they do not make enough money to pay for it. This has nothing to do with freedom! That's such a fucking buzzword I wonder if the people screaming about it actually know what it means. We are nowhere near being a socialist country (which if you actually knew anything about socialism, you'd know) so SHUT THE FUCK UP.
Okay thanks. I really needed to vent.
08/12/09
Now in my understanding (which admittedly isn't great) none of the various forms of health care legislation out there include dental. And very, very few employers offer dental insurance.
In the end, the taxpayers paid for brain surgery when regular cleanings- cheap by comparison- would have prevented the need for it. And in the end, the boy died anyway.
Yet dental coverage still isn't considered a necessity.
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"Dmitry Sklyarov is a Russian programmer who gave a talk at a hacker con in Vegas on the failings in Adobe's e-book locks. The FBI threw him in the slam for 30 days. He copped a plea, went home to Russia, and the Russian equivalent of the State Department issued a blanket warning to its researchers to stay away from American conferences, since we'd apparently turned into the kind of country where certain equations are illegal." (Cory Doctorow)
08/12/09
Do any of these people know what it's like to be uninsured and terrified to get sick or injured? Do they know what it's like to spend years paying off ER bills? Or having chronically ill parents who can't afford regular doctor visits or prescriptions? Do they know what it's like to have insurance and still not be able to afford to get sick? Don't even get me started on dental care.
I could give you quite a list of the aches and pains and sprains I've walked off.
08/12/09
08/12/09
08/12/09
By making it a win-win, where the insurance companies do make more money by having everybody insured, even at a lower price point, and the government steps in to regulate business practices, everybody received something in the transaction. To boot, we're all still capitalists here.
This means my mom, living off of social security, now has the identical health insurance I do from my employer, but for less than half the cost. When she got viral pneumonia, she was able to be treated in a hopsital with top level care (and not pick from a menu that included cough syrup and a reassuring smile, while somebody else got to pick IV anti-virals and fluids).
Thank you home state, for saving my mom's life.
Just like the economy, I wish the government would step in and actually regulate some things as greed knows no bounds when driven by potential profit.
08/12/09
Looking at the woman, she didn't seem like a bad mother, didn't seem to do this because she's cruel. I'm not condoning her behavior in any way; her behavior towards her daughter is wholly unacceptable and the police report is one of the worst I've read in a while. But I can't help wonder if there are larger societal implications. If she had had access to free health care, would things have been different? Does it even matter?
The little girl got out of the hospital yesterday after more than a week. I hope she's ok.
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08/12/09
I mean, I'm about to become a mom. How could I live with myself if I knew that a poor mother somewhere, much like me but with less money, couldn't afford to take her sick kid to the doctor because I wanted to pay lower taxes?
08/12/09
Life, for some people, is only for the moral. Oh, and the middle/upper-middle class. (Who are moral.)