Oh, I'll gladly go off meds while pregnant, so long as someone throws money at me so I don't have to work. Because I won't be able to. Not only would I be beyond a wreck, but the only way out of it would be talk therapy several times a week. Neither one's conducive to steady employment. So the kid will either have birth defects, or will have a broke, depressed mother. Win-win!
This whole topic makes me scared and angry, because it's coming up on kid-having time and I'm damned no matter what I do. All I know is, I'm tracking down one of those high-risk perinatal physicians, and possibly a prenatal psychiatrist, if they have those. There has got to be a balance of risks here that I can live with. Even though I'm sure there are going to be more scare pieces on how it's got to be either/or.
They are talking about Ventricular Septal Defects (VSD), which range in severity. I was born with one that healed on its own when I was 8, but I had to see a cardiologist regularly as a kid, and had to take penicillin before going to the dentist, etc. http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11066
I assume by "hole in the heart" you mean patent foramen ovale. If so, then technically all babies have a "hole in the heart" that "closes on its own" when the lungs first inflate. So maybe a more accurate way of saying this would be "delayed closing of the foramen ovale" since implying that there is a "hole" in the baby's heart that wouldn't otherwise be there also implies long-term complications associated with such a "hole" and scar tissue, etc.
I am all for talk therapy, but most insurance plans don't cover it - whereas pretty much all of them cover drugs. I have spent more than $500 on about a dozen therapy sessions this fall, whereas my zoloft is $8 a month. What we have here is a systemic problem.
@Flackette Goes Retro: My state just passed a mental health care parity law, which means that visits to therapists are the same as visits to physicians - a deductible and a $40 copay. It's not cheap - it works out to about what you paid, for a dozen sessions - but without it a dozen sessions would be $1500 for me, and I respond really well to talk therapy. So.
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Wow -- I wish reports like this included the option of treating depression through acupuncture and other holistic therapies. Some of us respond to them just as well as we respond to major pharmaceuticals, and there's no risk of hurting the baby. It just seems like those options get lost in the wash because they're not major-profit producers -- and different people respond well to different treatments.
@cellocurve: Yes and to me, recently, there seems to have been an even bigger than usual backlash against alternative treatments. Sure, there are the snake oils out there, but acupuncture has a long history and many traditional medical practitioners feel that it can be beneficial. I agree that profits pay a large part in that.
@cellocurve: Holistic therapies can be REALLY dangerous, especially to pregnant women, because the assorted herbs, etc. are not regulated (or inspected) by the FDA and could contain a whole lot of stuff that isn't good for you. As for acupuncture...
honestly i don't hold the FDA in very high regard. there isn't one pharm drug that comes without side effects. and when you watch TV, the list of side effects is rushed through while pix of happy people fill the screen.
i know holistic therapies can hold dangers as well, but a trained naturopath specializing in care for pregnant women will know what is advised and not advised.
@msAnthrope: They're certainly not without controversy, and even with FDA approval one shouldn't just blindly swallow anything without doing some serious research. But I'm confident the FDA make sure there's no lead in my Twinkies or arsenic in my green tea. I can't say that of the personal handing out herbal remedies. Even if the doctor prescribing it is knowledgeable and on the up and up, her supplier may not even know what's the item in question contains/has been exposed to, etc.
@msAnthrope: The FDA has an agenda, for sure, and it doesn't always serve the people - but note that (to give one ex, but relevant here since we're talking about pregnancy) that Thalidomide was never approved for use in hte US.
@cellocurve: I'm very interested in trying TCM to treat my depression, but I don't have any income and most practices are strictly cash. Maybe when I get out of grad school in a year and a half...
@HarpMadness: @HarpMadness: 'Traditional medical practitioners' aren't motivated by profit?!
"The evidence from controlled trials is insufficient to conclude whether acupuncture is an effective treatment for depression, but justifies further trials of electroacupuncture."
but they don't. the lack of staff in that department is widely reported. and even if they note something is in a product, for example lead or whatever in lipstick, they don't do anything about it:
anyway, i'm speaking more from personal experience (hence the bluster!) i've never been pregnant, but i suffered from "girl problems" that regular drugs and ob-gyns either didn't fix, or made worse, or offered to make worse through ridiculous treatments. i dropped many hundreds of dollars on these treatments. without health insurance.
then, i found a very competent naturopath who~~ *gasp!* understands how the body actually works. how if, for example, you're missing certain dietary things like magnesium or omegas, you will have certain health issues. so she had me take 4 supplements and~~ within 1 month~~ all my problems were gone.
i understand your point of view~~ i agree in general that it's Buyer Beware no matter what path somebody takes. but with all the past gaffs the FDA has made (vioxx as one example) i don't hold their opinion higher than my naturopath. i mean, who even decides what's an "acceptable" side effect for a drug to pass? why is it "okay" for a baby to be born with holes in the heart? why not force the drugmaker to refine the drug? i think that's what i despise most about the pharmas and FDA~~ they try to lull us into accepting outrageous side effects as "normal."
@msAnthrope: There is a scale of reported side effects from the patients participating in clinical trials. 1 is barely noticeable, 2 is mild, 3 is moderate, 4 is requiring some sort of medical intervention/serious quality of life impairment, and 5 is deadly. (Please correct me if I'm wrong--it's been a while since my drug development/approval classes) No drug with side effects above a 3 or 4 gets approved. It's not an arbitrary decision--there's a standardized method for determining what is and is not okay.
@msAnthrope: You can't expect to put a chemical into your body and not have side-effects. That would be awesome, but usually not possible. And that's true for anything, including the food and drink you ingest as well as the supplements given to you by your naturopath. The difference is that with drugs approved by the FDA you know that extensive studies have been done to see what the problems are.
The main problem with drugs is that huge amount of money that goes into drug development, many of which never make it to market for one reason or another. So there's a big incentive to get them out as quickly as possible so that they are profitable. There is a problem with pharmaceuticals and marketing, but that's not a good enough reason to get rid of them altogether.
Also, if your doctor doesn't understand the effects of magnesium and omega-3s better than your naturopath then there's a fucking problem. Because doctors and pharmacists actually read the research about those things, and while there are a lot of questions unanswered, I'm willing to bet money that your naturopath does not.
So in conclusion you'd rather put chemicals of oft unknown composition and side-effects into your body than use something that has side-effects that you do know about and composition that is monitored and regulated. Got it. That's your choice, but that doesn't mean a group of doctors should agree with you.
@LaComtesse: ask yourself why the FDA doesn't regulate herbs OR vitamins. the answer is that they've refused to take a position on them. if they did, there would be that many more industries and therapies to regulate, and then the sticky wicket of whether these remedies equal or rival pharmaco brands would have to be answered. the FDA is comprised of former pharmacos, so this path is not one they'll go down any time soon, unless it is mandated and funded.
taking branded pharmaceuticals shouldn't make you feel any more secure--they have long had a history of being tested only on men, and beyond that, on a very limited treatment population who don't represent a fulll spectrum of potential recipients. "FDA-approved" holds no particular assurance of anything.
@HarpMadness: Yeah -- I might add (for some of the commenters below) that I've got an acupuncturist who uses a needle-less method (Toyohari) with a Ph.D. in western science who keeps up with the latest research on PubMed and is very conscientious about the herbal supplements he uses. I have a good general practicioner friend who did an internship with an acupuncturist. It is possible to find alternative healers who embrace both sides of this supposed divide. Also, I do Chi Kung for 15 minutes a day, which has had a more profound effect on my health in the long term than anything I've ever done -- it is also part of TCM and probably the least invasive thing anyone could ever do. There's more to "alternative medicine" than this witch-doctor stereotype. #depressionandpregnancy
@Alys Brangwin can't stop the beat: I can relate -- was a long-time graduate student myself. Don't know where you're located, but you might try calling around and seeing if anyone has a sliding scale or student rates -- a community clinic just opened up in my town with a sliding scale and there are also two local TCM schools that offer super-discounted student rates. I actually had to put my Ph.D. on hold because of my health issues (depression was part of a larger picture involving celiac disease), and now I wish I had gone the TCM route sooner. #depressionandpregnancy
"For those pregnant women who respond well to talk therapy, the choice seems clear."
Except I'm pretty sure that's not covered by most insurance companies, while medication is. So that adds another (expensive) factor.
I'm kind of surprised that shock therapy would be recommended before medication for a pregnant woman, but that may just be because I'm scared of electro-shock therapy in general.
@cate3710: You would be right about that. Some companies do cover talk therapy, but only for a set number of visits, and that number is rarely enough to address significant issues.
@cate3710: Shock therapy is scary when improperly used--which is exactly what was going on back when it was used for everything. It's shown to be especially effective in treating bipolar disorder and certain types of depression.
Forgive me for this, but I saw a porno the other day that had a man with an extra penis. They both looked fully-functional and well-endowed. He performed double-penetration on the girl by himself. I'm a horrible person for watching it.
@trianaorpheus: i know i'm late, but i saw this as well- it freaked me out and made me somewhat horny at the same time.
but as i've mentioned before, i dig gross/weird/abnormal shit.
the only way i can justify it is that double pentration seems like a impossibility for me(to do) just because, i dunno, having to deal w/two guys at once, would be a) too much work b)probably get weird c) probably make me feel guilty/bad about myself later.
BUT i would be open to try double penetration- if it was w/ ONE guy.(no, one dick and one dildo doesn't count) ergo- ONE GUY WITH TWO DICKS IS THE ONLY ANSWER ZOMG!!!!!!
I was going to make an innappropriate comment about threesomes. But after the serious comment i just left on the thread about date rape, I can't do that.
10/06/09
10/06/09
This whole topic makes me scared and angry, because it's coming up on kid-having time and I'm damned no matter what I do. All I know is, I'm tracking down one of those high-risk perinatal physicians, and possibly a prenatal psychiatrist, if they have those. There has got to be a balance of risks here that I can live with. Even though I'm sure there are going to be more scare pieces on how it's got to be either/or.
10/06/09
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10/06/09
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10/06/09
My plan has better coverage for talk therapy than for prescription drugs. Like illness itself, it's different in individual cases.
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10/06/09
honestly i don't hold the FDA in very high regard. there isn't one pharm drug that comes without side effects. and when you watch TV, the list of side effects is rushed through while pix of happy people fill the screen.
i know holistic therapies can hold dangers as well, but a trained naturopath specializing in care for pregnant women will know what is advised and not advised.
10/06/09
10/06/09
10/06/09
10/06/09
"The evidence from controlled trials is insufficient to conclude whether acupuncture is an effective treatment for depression, but justifies further trials of electroacupuncture."
[aim.bmj.com]
10/06/09
but they don't. the lack of staff in that department is widely reported. and even if they note something is in a product, for example lead or whatever in lipstick, they don't do anything about it:
<a href=" [jezebel.com]" lead in lipstick
anyway, i'm speaking more from personal experience (hence the bluster!) i've never been pregnant, but i suffered from "girl problems" that regular drugs and ob-gyns either didn't fix, or made worse, or offered to make worse through ridiculous treatments. i dropped many hundreds of dollars on these treatments. without health insurance.
then, i found a very competent naturopath who~~ *gasp!* understands how the body actually works. how if, for example, you're missing certain dietary things like magnesium or omegas, you will have certain health issues. so she had me take 4 supplements and~~ within 1 month~~ all my problems were gone.
i understand your point of view~~ i agree in general that it's Buyer Beware no matter what path somebody takes. but with all the past gaffs the FDA has made (vioxx as one example) i don't hold their opinion higher than my naturopath. i mean, who even decides what's an "acceptable" side effect for a drug to pass? why is it "okay" for a baby to be born with holes in the heart? why not force the drugmaker to refine the drug? i think that's what i despise most about the pharmas and FDA~~ they try to lull us into accepting outrageous side effects as "normal."
10/06/09
10/06/09
The main problem with drugs is that huge amount of money that goes into drug development, many of which never make it to market for one reason or another. So there's a big incentive to get them out as quickly as possible so that they are profitable. There is a problem with pharmaceuticals and marketing, but that's not a good enough reason to get rid of them altogether.
Also, if your doctor doesn't understand the effects of magnesium and omega-3s better than your naturopath then there's a fucking problem. Because doctors and pharmacists actually read the research about those things, and while there are a lot of questions unanswered, I'm willing to bet money that your naturopath does not.
So in conclusion you'd rather put chemicals of oft unknown composition and side-effects into your body than use something that has side-effects that you do know about and composition that is monitored and regulated. Got it. That's your choice, but that doesn't mean a group of doctors should agree with you.
10/06/09
taking branded pharmaceuticals shouldn't make you feel any more secure--they have long had a history of being tested only on men, and beyond that, on a very limited treatment population who don't represent a fulll spectrum of potential recipients. "FDA-approved" holds no particular assurance of anything.
10/15/09
10/15/09
10/06/09
Except I'm pretty sure that's not covered by most insurance companies, while medication is. So that adds another (expensive) factor.
I'm kind of surprised that shock therapy would be recommended before medication for a pregnant woman, but that may just be because I'm scared of electro-shock therapy in general.
10/06/09
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but as i've mentioned before, i dig gross/weird/abnormal shit.
the only way i can justify it is that double pentration seems like a impossibility for me(to do) just because, i dunno, having to deal w/two guys at once, would be
a) too much work
b)probably get weird
c) probably make me feel guilty/bad about myself later.
BUT i would be open to try double penetration- if it was w/ ONE guy.(no, one dick and one dildo doesn't count) ergo- ONE GUY WITH TWO DICKS IS THE ONLY ANSWER ZOMG!!!!!!
I know. I'm a disgusting person.
04/08/09
04/08/09
04/08/09
04/08/09
04/09/09
04/08/09
04/08/09
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04/08/09
(oh, I feel very wrong now)
04/11/09