Jezebel 
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New York, 4:14 PM
Thu Nov 12
73 posts in the last 24 hours
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09/10/09
Yeah, Wolf enjoys being a sensual creature. One of the things I find very irritating about many nominally sex-positive women is that if another woman does declare, however mildly, that she is a sexual being, the nominally sex-positive woman will bash her for being either a) a tool of the patriarchy or b) smug, as above.
I don't know what this supposedly feminist world that some women want looks like... it's apparently one where we're all comfortable in our own skin, we all love our own skin, but we're disallowed from discussing that skin. That's not what freedom looks like.
09/10/09
Um, no. I'm a Muslim woman who wears LBDs and bathing suits and jeans and I pass mirrors and reflective surfaces and make sure my paunch isn't too obvious.
It seriously is starting to piss me off when Muslim women don't realize that not all of us dress in burkas and wear hijab.
And PS: Burka or not, there is still pressure to be thin.
09/10/09
Seriously, hardcore Judaism and Christianity have rules about covering too, and no one is surprised to see me in a tank top, or a Christian in a bikini. This either/or this is so strange.
09/10/09
All the eye rolling makes my head hurt.
09/10/09
Both men and womyn are told that the female figure is soooo sexy that it must be covered. If not, promiscuous sex will occur. This is nothing new.
Much in the same way that church's tell girls to not wear tight clothing in order to not make their "brothers in Christ stumble," Muslim womyn are told that their bodies are inherently sexual.
09/10/09
If people scrutinized what I wore so closely I don't think I could handle it. Many a time have I broken down over comments regarding my limited wardrobe, usually my finances are the topic of scorn. I can't imagine how hard it must be to have my religious beliefs constantly monitored and questioned.
I don't agree with those who wish to ban burkas or impose them. Women should be allowed to wear whatever they want (so long as their genitals are covered when in public).
09/10/09
Why is this so ridiculously fascinating?
09/10/09
Maybe she's used to it, but temperature is one big reason I wouldn't get on board with this kind of dress even if I did feel like it prevented me from being judged (which I don't, but that's a whole other issue).
09/10/09
oh for fuck's sake. You know how many women who are wearing a burqa are more worried about feeding their families and not starving to death than whether their bodies are bikini ready? Yes, there is a huge middle and upper class of Muslim women throughout the world, and that they keep modest and wear hijab or chador or whatever else, and this is who she's talking about, but seriously? Most of them aren't in burqas. We throw that word around like its interchangeable with non-restrictive modest clothing. It isn't.
The culture clash here is making my brain explode.
09/10/09
I mean, Christ. What is this, 1860? The notion that covering up more of our bodies is somehow "freeing" because now we're not as much under the scrutiny of the male gaze is so many kinds of wrong I don't even know where to begin. The problem is NOT what kind of clothing we wear, whether we're covered from head to toe or buck naked. The problem IS the expectation -- which apparently PERSISTS even for women who wear a burqa -- the women's bodies are for OTHERS' visual pleasure and enjoyment. THEY ARE FUCKING NOT. ONLY WHEN WE GET OVER THIS MYTH WILL WOMEN *ACTUALLY* BE "FREE" FROM WORRYING ABOUT OUR BODIES.
Do you get it, Naomi Wolf????? It's not about anything WE do to make ourselves look a certain way (thin, fat, "average," fit, ripped, flabby, covered, uncovered, etc.) It's about what society will accept from us. And the bottom line is, it doesn't completely accept fully fleshed out women as people in our own right. It ONLY accepts us in relation to what we provide for others -- as mothers, as lovers, as eye candy, as "modest" prizes to "win," etc. The problem is that women as a concept STILL exist for other people and not for ourselves. It has nothing, FUCKING NOTHING, to do with what kind of clothing we wear, because we are STILL FETISHIZED.
This whole thing makes me so angry I can barely see straight.
09/10/09
the truth is, it exists and always will. living in NYC, i get my fair share of cat calls; whispers as some guy passes a little too close (the worst.); and the obvious look up and down. and this is every day. It's so unfair that just for wearing something like a sundress (not even something revealing) its like you have a giant sign on your body that says "please feel free to comment"
09/10/09
Maybe this is something where you have to be conventionally pretty and live in an urban area to truly internalize her perspective. The male gaze is palpable here in the warm months. You're never free of it. Every time you leave your building, strange men approach you and speak to you. My feminist enlightenment does not stop them from speaking to me, as it does not extend outside my own head. It does not stop me from being intimidated by them, because often in the past my saying, "No," has led to my being the target of obscene, disparaging remarks. I often wish I could be unseen on the street, since I lack the power to close predatory men's eyes and mouths. I know that age will eventually do that job for me, but in the interim, I can see the appeal of veiling.
09/10/09
I know exactly what you mean about being a feminist not stopping them, or how trying to put them in their place only seems to encourage them. I've lived it. I'm not sure I see your point -- surely you aren't suggesting that because we haven't mastered mind control we should just live with the "fact" that men are going to objectify us?
Being invisible or feeling invisible doesn't put an end to the marginalization of women. Covering myself up doesn't mean men stop leering at me -- it just means, perhaps, different men leer, and/or for different reasons. And if I did wear a burqa and still had to deal with someone telling me I need to be careful about my body so my husband won't leave me, I really don't see how I'd have been freed from anything.
Being invisible isn't the answer. Being allowed to be completely visible, and not having my visibility have to have some kind of male-oriented meaning attached to it is the answer. Pretending that covering ourselves up will solve the problem does all women a disservice.
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09/10/09
Anyway, clearly you're not interested in having a real discussion, given you've resorted to pettiness.
09/10/09
I would also like to add that I have no problem with Muslim women dressing conservatively out of choice. Where I do have a problem is with any society trying to force me to dress a certain way.
09/10/09
How shallow is that analysis! Also - afaik most women in less developed countries who veil do so at age ___ having seen all their older female relatives and neighbours etc wearing them as a matter of course. There's a hell of a difference between looking at someone's pretty shoes and walking a marathon in them. The goal should be to report the marathon not the goddamn flair on the shoes.
09/10/09
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09/10/09
If you look at muslims in South East Asia, you will see that they are not as restrictive as women in the middle east. We tend to wear saris, salwaar kameez, lenghas, etc. and these clothings tend to emphasize our bodies (especially the hips and cleavage) My point is, that there are muslims in all different cultures and we shouldn't just generalize our views of Muslim women in one way.
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09/10/09
/sarcasm
09/10/09
Me too! It's like somebody's choice always has to be judged. So frustrating.
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09/10/09
"When I was only four years old and still living in Cairo, a man exposed himself to me as I stood on a balcony at my family’s, and gestured for me to come down. At 15, I was groped as I was performing the rites of the hajj pilgrimage at Mecca, the holiest site for Muslims. Every part of my body was covered except for my face and hands. I’d never been groped before and burst into tears, but I was too ashamed to explain to my family what had happened."
From [www.worldaffairsjournal.org]
Moreover, non-working/child-bearing age women in the wealthier Saudi Arabian world are expected to be elaborately groomed and decorated underneath their robes at all times -- all hair removed, henna patterns, sexy lingerie, and dressed to the nines; whether to please their husbands or advertise his wealth and status.
So I think Wolf is romanticising the veil quite a bit more than it deserves to be.
However, I think there is an interesting parallel between her thinking and the claim that certain women develop obesity as a deflector shield against the male gaze. In each case, the woman "acquires" a substance that "hides" her body and acts as an "I'm-not-interested" signal.
I'm not defending this claim about obesity, please note -- I am only saying that the imputed wish of the woman in question is simply to move in a public space without being subjected to harassment.